THOTH

The capacity for violence is ingrained into all of us...its only through the application of rational thought (and ultimatly self interest - what goes around comes around sort of thing) that prevents many of us succumbing to such base responses. That there is so much violence in media/entertainment etc - in our country - and even elsewhere -and through history - is really - I think - somewhat of a (safe) outlet for this sort of thing...of course much spills over into our greater culture due to or perhaps in spite of these outlets....

Anaheet - first welcome to our forum - i think you will like it here (racist rants by some aside)...and right on with your post - I like how you think. It seems you and I share something of our backgrounds. My mother is Armenian and my father mixed Northern European. My mother experienced much discrimination due to her color/ethnicity growing up and it affects her attitudes to this day (and caused her to disuade me from learning Armenain - so like you I do not speak - and to this day she insists that I "be" American and forget everything about my Armenian heritage). She also experienced the same sort of racist attitudes from many of may fathers family - including from my grandmother - who never really accepted her as "white" - so i hear you. So again welcome - stick around - we need more who think as you do (emphasis on "think")...and good luck on your quest to discover/understand your history/heritage/culture etc - I think that - for the most part - you will find this forum somewhat helpful (and interesting/entertaining/enlightening & worthwhile) in this regard.

Yes this is the crux of it. And being "Armenian" and "Armenian culture" etc etc is not a static thing - like everythign else it evolves... People have a right to do as they wish and have no obligation to conform to the wishes of others (about how they should be). Armenians have been a diaspora for many generations - and thay have adapted and done what it takes to survive. There are Armenians providing for their families and living succesfully and well in many cultures - who is anyone to say that they have made the wrong choices - and this extends to who the marry - very much so - I mean how much more persoanl doe sit get? If there are aspects of Armenian culture that are worthwhile to people - then the culture will survive...and you must also realize it is not just Armenain culture that is under attack (though understood - the argument of small numbers) - very few live in isolation anymore - time does not stand still - western society permeates all (do you really think Al Queda et al will win? etc).....the future is upon us - and we must adapt and survive - its just the way of things...work to make a better world - but OK - certainly respect/appreciate your past - live it if you must or can live no other way (but realize that most will not choose this path) - this world of today moves foreward regardless - we need to understand the dynamics of these changes and attempt to steer ourselves (all humanity) to a better future (this would be doing a true service)...so cheer up and make the best of it - (what good is it being bitter and hateful?)

Sev-Marde - hey there my man welcome back - and what a great post! (and sorry for not getting back to you...) Vigil - please get a life. While some of your concerns are valid on a certain level - I think your understanding of things is much too narowly focused. And your generalizations - and racist thoughts - as expressed - well I find them quite disturbing/disgusting - to say the least... And since when can Armenians be considered a "race"...Is this from the "Goebbles school of racial classifications"....

Hey Sip...been (near) there - but haven't done none of that...looks like great fun though...and - as ususal - you are having too much fun!!

sad

agreed

Anoushik - probably too late but here anyway... http://archive.aclu.org/issues/gay/parent.html

American Psychological Association: "In summary, there is no evidence to suggest that lesbians and gay men are unfit to be parents or that psychosocial development among children of gay men or lesbians is compromised in any respect relative to that among offspring of heterosexual parents. Not a single study has found children of gay or lesbian parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents. Indeed, the evidence to date suggests that home environments provided by gay and lesbian parents are as likely as those provided by heterosexual parents to support and enable children's psychosocial growth." http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html

American Psychological Association: "The psychiatric, psychological, and social-work professions do not consider homosexual orientation to be a mental disorder. More than 20 years ago, the American Psychiatric Association removed "homosexuality" from its list of mental disorders, stating that "homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities" (American Psychiatric Association, 1980). In 1975, the American Psychological Association took the same position and urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that had long been associated with homosexual orientation (American Psychological Association, 1975). The National Association of Social Workers has a similar policy (National Association of Social Workers, 1994)." http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html

There are a very many examples of great parents who happen to be gay. In fact I think most parents who adopt - whatever their orientation or what have you - tend to be great - caring parents...and what matters most? There are certainly plenty of traits by all sorts of parents that can have negative effects on children - bigoted parents for instance...are you advocating some kind of parenting test? Do you trust the Government (whomevers) to make such decisons?

Yes better to keep them in an orphanage eh? Or better yet with some crack whore mother - yeah - much better - why didn't I see that....

Super post Proud Expat!!

Yeah - well thanks - I do tend to go overboard on things I get into...but yeah gardening is great (and its like art) - you get to see/experience the results of your "creation" - your labor...and it does provide nice meditation (as well as good exercise). And pretties up the place too! You should have seen my Wisteria this year - some blooms...and my white wisteria is incredibly sweetly fragrant. I love the fragrant flowers. I ussually pick my roses for fragrance as well as color (and low mainatenance - if at all possible...roses are generally a pain BTW). I have some very fragrant viburnums and magnolias (sweet bay!)... Concerning the wisteria - is it going to be trined freestanding (as a tree) or using a trelis or such? If the latter - make sure it is a very strong one! You are refering to a japanese (red) cut leaf maple no doubt..yeah usuually hundreds of dollars and grow very slowley. I don't have one - but do have a "normal" japanese maple which is pretty - but not quite as extravagant. You may want to consider looking in the fall (best time to plant generally anyway) - sometimes nurseries have overstock that they want to get rid of. I've gotten a fair percentage of my plants/trees for free or severely discounted as a close cousin of mine (full Armenian BTW) is a landscaper and he looks out for me!

Gardening has been a long time passion for me. It began many years ago with vegetable gardening from working in my dad's garden and branching out to digging and preparing gardens for others - I actually had a gardening business back in my teens. I have since expanded into trees, shrubs, flowers and whatnot and have even done a bit of landscape design (for others as well as for my own property). When we purchased our current home 15 years ago it had a few trees on it and some basic foundation beds all of which I have expanded quite a bit. My neighbors have even accused me of planting a forest as I (myself) have planted over 150 trees and shrubs - many speciman pieces...(several varieties of Oak, Maple, pine, spruce, fir, birch, hemlock, cypress and holly etc etc - and some real specimans - incl Dawn Redwood, Swiss Stone Pine, Blue Atlas Cedar, Deodora Cedar and Cyrptomeria. still I am a believer in the bountry of the crops and have a dozen fruit trees (peaches, plums, apricots, apples and pears), strawberries, and 2 rasberry patches (black & red) and am planning a to put in some blueberry bushes this fall (have the ground already worked up for them). I also have planted quite a few flowering bushes and perrenial flowers (including grape hycinaths! , tulips, daffodils, astilbes (several kinds - red & white), hostas, irises, begonias, spirea, hydrangea, many roses - all different types, daylillies and and assortmant of other flowers. I have also planted many roddedendrons and azeleas as well as several varieties of ornamental mountain laurel, flowering magnolias (that smell awesome) - 2 different kinds of Japanese wisteria (purple and white that also smell great), many different viburnum as well as other flowering trees such as dogwoods, redbuds, cherry trees and Crape Myrtle. I had a Giant Sequoia growing for a few years but 2 drought years a few back did it in. And at one point I was to put in a pretty nice sized water garden/pond...but the kids playset now sits where that was supposed to be...

I think you miss my point...anyway...I said nothing about changing any behavior per se (and certainly not in regards to the opinions of others...lol)...I'm going to be honest about how I feel (and how I act etc) - as always - but I do feel shame as an American..and embarrasment...

I will be vacationing in Europe this summer. I am expecting to hear a lot of negative views from folks about the USA (concerning Iraq - etc) once folks find out that I am an American. And yes I feel shame (regarding certain US actions etc)and will express that in this context. Yes its embarrassment as well - but a little beyond this I think....am I wrong? Should I just say/think - oh I regret that - but claim its not me so its not my problem? Thats certainly the easy way out of it. And maybe we can rationalize or explain things to justify...but in the end - IMO - if one is truly remorseful etc..its more then just being embarrased..its being ashamed...

yes

TB - and don't you think I understand this.... and hytga - yes and no - I understand your point - but yes - they should be ashamed - and this is my point...

Shame is a word, a concept which is used in Anthropological circles to describe contrition and REGRET (and look at the Webster definition that I provided..3. ...something to be regretted) - more then just the internalized guilt - but as the first step in seeking forgiveness from others by aknowledging that whatever was done to warrant such (censure etc form others) was henious and uncalled for and that the perpetrator(s) has/have internalized this fact and that they realize that they have gone beyond the norm and hurt others - etc . This is the idea is that they are shamed before the eyes of all others - they feel regret (for the hurt) and remorse and are then in the position (where they are expected) to make amends. I think shame is exactly what any Turk with a concious - with a heart should feel concerning the deeds of their forfathers/predecessors and their continued campaign to deny Armenains any justice or (at least) recognition/acknowledgement. Regret is but an (insufficient - but of course one would certainly hope there is at least this) subset of shame (or the process of being ashamed and moving on to atonement - etc). To only feel regret - it could be that perhaps they regret not having finished the job, or regret that others are down on them becuse of these actions/events..it is the shame - that one feels - beyond just regret - that properly describes how a human being should feel about all the innocents that were merceilesly slaughtered, towns, villages and an entire society destroyed, and it is entirely shameful how the Turkish society has continued to perpetuate the pain, suffering and unrepentant slanders and attacks against Armenians even to this day. Shmae is a necessary preconditon for any subsequant healing - without it - everything else is hollow - meaningless. Ah this is good really - to think this issue through a bit - as tonight - in concert with several other Armenians in my area - I make a multi-media presentation of/about Armenians to a group of students (they specially invited me to join them!). My portion is discussion of the Genocide and of the lost legacy of Armenians in Anatolia. I must take a poll after to see how the audience feels about whether or not the Turks of today should feel shame for what was done...or perhaps should the whole issue just be forgotten...

I agree completely with everything TB and Armat have said here. All Turks (who know/understand anything concerning the Genocide and the humilations and massacres preceeding it) should be ashamed - very ashamed - ashamed at the horrible things that were done - by Turks - in the name of Turkism (essentially/at least in part) - and yes - of course - ashamed of being Turkish - based on this legacy alone. Just as I am (truly & scincerely) ashamed of being an American in regards to the recent events in Iraq - crimes and misdeeds commited by Americans and (larger) actions justified in the name of American interests etc. And I am ashamed of being American (and even of Western European dissent) for past crimes against the indigineous peoples of the Americas. Of course I am - what person of concious could not be! Even being only part German - and even when my family had left one hundred years before the Holocaust - i have a certain shame in regards to my Germaness. Becuase these horrible deeds were caused by my people - people like me - of whom I am a descendent. I believe that people who don't feel a sense of shame for these deeds are either callous or ignorant. And in regards to Turks - with the ongoing denial - there is even more to cause one shame for being one whose people are party to such. Websters: Main Entry: shame Pronunciation: 'shAm Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English scamu; akin to Old High German scama shame 1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion 2 : a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : IGNOMINY 3 a : something that brings censure or reproach; also : something to be regretted : PITY <it's a shame you can't go> b : a cause of feeling shame

now now Ani...it can't be that easy can it? And besides...it would upset Domino greatly....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books A great book - centered around this idea of the arc on Ararat...with lots of other (cool) stuff - highly recomended...fiction (of course)...perhaps for Junes book of the month eh?

Wow Sip - a Sig - very nice! I've only shot their rifles - one modded for fully auto of course! But I know the rep of their handguns. BTW my friend accidently blasted the front windshield of his brothers truck with this particualr weapon as he was firing in an arc out the vehical while it was moving along and forgot that the fron t windshield wasn't "open" - lol - ooops! I can understand why folks have an aborrence towars guns...and there is no doubt that the US gun culture has gotten a bit out of hand and there are also some crazy/overboard gun nuts out there - still I don't think folks can appreciate the enjoyment of firing a gun unless they have done so. And I would really suggest - if you can at all get over your repulsion for such -to at least give it a try - to somewhat understand. And you may find this interesting -i have a good friend who is both very involved in Democratic Party politics and is an NRA lifetime member and activist...a very interesting combination to se - and he actually can make a very strong and reasonable case for being very wary of restrictive gun laws (I don;t fully agree at all - but there are issues concerning individual liberties versus Governemntal intrusion etc that at least bear being cogniznt of)...anyway My father was an old farmboy from the country. He grew up around guns and felt that it was his duty as a father to teach me how to shoot - I'm glad he did. Its a (potentially) useful skill as well as providing the source of many very special memories of outings with my dad teaching me how to shoot, target shooting, skeet shooring and just blasting at stuff - great fun and a good bonding experience. I have many very special memories of these times with him. I've know a few gals to shoot as well - and who used time at the range to let off stream - as a stess reducer etc. One of these gals I dated many years ago. She had been a cop and was a DEA agent at the time - a very tough gal - but very nice & fun. Of course she always carried because of her job and such. It felt nice to know that when you were out on LA's mean streets your date could protect you - lol... So yeah I own a few guns...most with great memories for me - of times with my dad. And in fact I consider 2 of the guns family heirlooms. One - an 1895 Winchester pump action 12 gauge (still in emaculate condition) was given to my Grandfather as a boy and has been passed down to me. Another - an M-1 carbine semi-auto (great gun!) is an exact duplicate of the gun my dad carried in the Army and is essentially the gun I learned to shoot with... Again I very much understand why people are opposed to guns - for a variety of reasons...but there is another side - and there is a self protection aspect as well - and one that is protected by our (the U.S.) Constitution for good reason - as a disarmed citizenry is a citenzery without recourse against tyranny. http://www.gunsanddope.com/