THOTH

yes Domino - i don't believe in (the existance or at least divinity of) Zues, Mithra, Odin, Allah, Jesus, the Pink Pony - etc etc...I have made my choice...but other then the fact that I have rejected these false notions it says nothing about any particualr belief that I have and no conclusions can be made regarding such and certainly this can't possible consitiute a religion as aside form non-belief what do I share with others who likewise reject? And what are our common rituals and observances and what differnece does it make in everyday life - etc etc And sorry to say - but I'm a bit more grounded in reality then you apear to be my friend... And of course I completely agree in the Theist paradx - among others...so what am i supposed to say - rah rah? In fact i don't recall this post of yours...perhaps I missed it...well I never claim to know everything...

wrong I actually find this sad...we have to be told to do good...like a dog that has to be taught not to bite...some folks don't require to be leashed you know... Humans share some basic values accross cultures/religions etc...kind of makes sense that we would - doesn't it? Funny that you claim humanism is not rational...just what is it about re-incarnation is rational? How can it be proven/observed? It is just a belief...based on???? Same with a diety.... Humanism is a philosohy as explained in Anoushiks post. It is basically calling out for awarness...I dont quite think you can say there are any "commandments" - I mean come now...I mean what if we stray from these "commandments" what then...I haven't seen the list of punishments for transgressions or even the suggestion of such. And for someone who believes in religions/superstitions etc to claim humaninsm is irrational...that is a laugh...

Well Jack I was not brought up as an "Armenian" per se - and neither are our children being raised such. But what is funny is that I recieved much of my initial exposure/awareness of my Armenian heritage/history etc from my (non-Armenian) father - who thought it was important to teach me - as my (Armenian) mother was/is of completely opposite mind. Of course I also have many Armenian relatives (of varrying degrees of involvement in Armenian affairs...etc)... I feel for your dilema...but I don't see a solution beyond working with what you've got...ie you can't force Armenians in the diaspora to be one way or another - they will do what they will - what they percieve to be in their interests etc - and if continuing to be immersed in some degree of Armenian culture is of value to them - then they will do so - to varrying degrees. Yes - you will lose many to the dominant/local culture...but bottom line is there is little you can do about this...so you must work with what you have...and my advice also is to be inclussive - and understanding - that not all Armenians will choose to continue their traditions to the same degeee as you or others - but all should be embraced and exposed or what not - because I do believe that we have a wonderful culture, wonderful people and a very very special history and place in the world... Alas - I may never learn Armenian...I'm not very good with languages to begin with...and unless I have a real compelling reason (like moving to Armenia or such) - I doubt that I will ever attempt to learn it. Yes - I'm somewhat sorry of this (because as an Anthropologist and as someone who understands I do know what i am missing)- but again - that is just the way of it...for me... And again - Armenian national heritage is pretty much an issue for Armenians from Armenia - and of course those from the Diaspora who involve themselves in Armenia. We can perserve something of our culture in the Diaspora...but it will never be entirely the same...it cannot be...and even Armenia itself faces obstacles in remaining "Armenian" and in fact can (basically) never go back...and thi sis really true for most all of us in the world today...

or perhaps in another universe eh? No matter... Religion is fine for folks that need it. And I won't argue that some people are better of with religious beliefs for a variety of reasons...but not all ... some of us just have no need for such and do very well without it...

untrue. First there is love that exists for ones family...and this can be extended to ones greater kin group, village or what have you - with the understanding that these folks share in the bounty of life with you etc etc - and its also logical to be good to others so that they might act the same with you - etc etc - and all this predates religion...even predates speach - if you think about it...

Anoushik - thanks - very nice...and Domino - sorry I just don't buy it...its all suposition on your part - just as any other religion (unproven and by definition wrong/not imbude with sufficient facts etc to truly reach such/any real conclusions). And in fact I can see no evidence to at al support your theory regarding humans as this multi dimensional etheral entity spanning the cosmos..its just another version of the man centered universe IMO and very arrogant regarding the rest of - whatever we may call it - Universe/multiverse/exsistance etc etc....What is clear is that we are flesh, blood and electro-chemical processes (as most all othe rmulti-celled creatures we know about)...we are born, we live and we die...and I think what goes on in between - and what we leave for future generation is what is important...and while its OK (and interesting etc) to speculate...its really nothing more then an entertaining intellectual exercise - as we have not the facts to come to any real conclusions...and I cannot imagine how the results of such would effect our day to day lives in any event...but OK...carry on - always interesting and amusing...

I would ask that folks stop trying to tell atheists what they believe and why...as I have yet to see a single thought on this here that has any bearing on reality. And do you really wish for us non-believers to start harping on all the various paradox inherrent in belief? And I might believe in multiple universes BTW - or at least I am open to the belief in them - knowing the current science...however it is purly an intellectual exercise with little bearing on my reality and absolutly no bearing on my beleif in the supernatural.

Sr or Jr? And Arnie can't become Pres - at least not without a constitutional amendment...as we was born in Austria... And BTW - I didn't even mention Iran-Contra...some real dirty deeds there....(and Bush Sr was very well able to hide his role...)

AP - my mother came from a family with an Armenian mother and and Armenian father. She developed her attitudes prior to getting married to a non Armenian - and for reasons of descrimination and from living in an area without a strong Armenian Diaspora community - typical issues with immagrants in this country - so you are off base here - it has nothing directly to do with intermarrying. And if my father and mother hadn't married and had children - well - there would be no ME. I am the result of this mix and would not have come into being any other way - so i am - of course - eternally grateful for that - and have no bitter ir negative feelings wahtsoever regarding such. Would it be that I had learned Armenian - of course I would have liked that - but I didn't and at this point in my life and circumstance - it is doubful that I will. Yes - I have some regret...but thats just the way it is..I do feel I have plenty going for me in other respects that it doesn't worry me much. And Anileve - the rice thing - brilliant! And Stormy too - LOL!

No disrespect to his virtues as a human being - and I do think that Reagan had many good qualities in this regard - but I believe that the Reagan presidency will go down as one of the worst in our history. During his administration we were saddled with tremendous national debt - when he campaigned to reduce such - same with dependency on foreign oil - more rather then less...trade deficits...and demise of small business in this country...not to mention the savings and loan debacle, billions wasted on dubious defense initiatives (including SDI - with waste like you cannot imagine). And to credit his administrations policies with the downfall of the Soviet Union is a bit of a streach...the Soviet Union fell because of a cumilation of mismanagement, coruption and just outright failure to allow humans to do their thing (Communist system is just against human nature..) - and from internal pressures from groups - like/including Armenians (NK) - who were disatisfied with their reppression and the status quo - and who exploited the cracks of perestroika to press their points. The Soviet Union's fall was inevitable...though perhaps hastened by wasteful military spending (and much of the real imporvements in military capability for the US were from initiatives begun under the Carter administration). And who can forget things such as the Air Traffic controllers strike where Reagan's administration sacked all of them - when they had very legitamate greivances (then they re-name an airport after him...). Much of the so called Reagan revolution was illusuroy. Old school conservatives like to think he was their great white hope - or what have you - but in fact he betrayed most of their (economic values). Sure he helped make the (corporate and individual) rich richer - and Trickle down economics was just that - a trickle for the working class - at best. And of course socially I believe that the legitimization of the arch religious conservative factions during Reagans time has been a major step backward for our nation with continuing damage through the various Bush administrations - including arch-conservative judgeships, environmental retrogradism, assaults against individual rights (again a betrayal of true conservative principals IMO). And who can forget Ketchup as a vegtable, James Watt (sec of Interior) and the rape of our nations forests and natural lands etc etc etc

I disagree that I don't have the capacity to understand homosexuals even though I'm straight. I think I do - at least to a sufficient degree that I understand these issues and what gay people have to deal with - on all levels. And is this all you can contribute to this discussion American-Hye? I mean you have the benefit of a somewhat more involved perspective - no? I was perhaps hoping you would share more of your otherwise unattainable wisdom with us... While Domino does have his points - at the same time he is hopelessly mired in the constructs he has made for himself and fails to really see the fundemental personal and societal issues. If we don't put all these various other aspects of human behavior (and parenting suitibility etc) to a test of what benefit (or even potential harm - even when it can be more clearly proven in other cases besides just beig gay - which is nebulous/no proof etc) then we can't put the same restrictions on gays. Again - many folks still don't like interacial marriages and see them as evil or what not (and look at Armenian Pirate's posts...) - so essentially these objecxtions against gay marriages amount to pretty much the same thing - pretty much - & OK I can admit not entirely the same...but essentially...He is as well just being resistant to change and ignoring realities. It basically comes down to semantics - saying no to gay marriage - because this has not been what has been an accepted use of the word before - and if its not just that then it is just outright descrimination IMO. Yeah the solution: a gay man can marry a women etc...again thats like saying that a black man can marry a black women - so why should they be allowed to marry a white one...I mean it certainly wasn't allowed even as recently as the middle of last century - and those who tried it were often lynched - etc...I would hope that we - as a society - have gotten beyond this....but I know that it is still going to take some time...

I disagree - you claimed that marriage is a natural thing (only because you say that it is...) and we have clearly shown that it is a social construct. Social constructs change as society evolves. We have matured to the point where we (as a society) more or less accept homosexuals in our midsts and we know that it is wrong to hate and to discriminate etc - and soon - the concept of gay unions will also be considered marriage - legally and in every other sense of the word... And parenting has also occured outside of the bounds of marriage...

your conclusion/belief...but many feel the same way about interacial couples...and homosxulaity cannot be compared to murder..I mean the person being murdered - well he's not for that is he...but the guy being buggered...well you get the picture...its just not our business what two (or more?) consnting adults want to do for their own fun -as long as its not hurting or imposing on anyone... well many homosexuals hae contributed a great deal...should we list them? And what is the purpose? Well - why do I still have sex with my wife - we aren;t planning to have anymore children? So please - again with these non-arguments..and that you right away bring up disease..well that shows your bias...well there are all types of sexual diseases - most spread among the hetero community...so again - whats the point? And more people in the world - more density means more possible disease vectors - thus not having additional babies helps slow this process..etc Ok - but obviously there are those who do violence against gays - just because they are gay - and I hope you do see this as wrong...and again - there are those who are against interacial marriages...and yes - all these predjudices are equally backward thinking IMO...people have to learn to not be so judgemental of thers - who are we to say what is right for someone else...live and let live...

Yes Domino - we were talking benefits..and now you post a link that addresses parenting....very tricky pool your playing here...

LOL - at worst they are saying that children of homosexual parents may be more open to the idea of same sex - sex ...well duh.... still it does not at all say that they are statistically more likely to be homosexual...so whats the point?

yes Anoushik - this is a very real and serious issue. Its sad to see those making light of it (talking about marrying animals etc) and then others who cannot stand that they have no real argument but accuse me of having none - when I think I have pretty clearly laid out the basis for my position- sad really...and I certainly don;t at all deserve being called bone head and other names...I've posted seriously here...and I mean if someone is going on and on saying that there is no descrimination and that gay men can marry women if they want benefits etc -- then what am I to believe...now Domino says he never said he was against benefits...well I'm stumped really...

I think anyone who has any heart - any empathy for other people - and who really understands this issue - would support gay couples being allowed to marry. If someone is able to see out beyond their own situations and understand the plights of others - how gay couples are basically made to suffer because of what they are denied in maritial staus - then they should support them being allowed to marry. I find this hard core reaction against such to be very sad - something that has no real direct impact on anyone here (now that Dan is no longer among us) - yet people can't seem to see beyond their pregedices - sad really...and basically manufacturing any excuse...the children etc...or homosexuality is wrong etc - well such narrow views...and then to say - "I never said I was against benefits" etc - meanwhile constant argument against such (de facto) saying that they are not being denied rights etc etc...yeah sad - thats how I see it...

tsk tsk - name calling isn't nice...

Yes Domino - I understand that not everything is fair - and we just have to live with certain inequities and such. But what is right is to give these benefits to (gay) couples - as we do to any others. And I can;t read your mind - only what you post here. If you haven't addressed directly the issue of benefits and such then do so - I mean I';ve only been talking about it for 15 posts! So all you are hung up on is the semantics of the word marraiage then - this is the only issue for you?

No again you miss the point. These unions exsist and should be allowed the same rights and benefits. You will have to look elsewhere for yours...perhaps in some other multiverse...or perhaps you qaulify otherwise eh? Just like your example of being old for senior benefits..well when you get old you will qualify - your status will aloow you. Well to deny gays who are couples the recognition of their status is a real issue - and it is discriminatory and goes against what is right - they should be recognized and be allowed the dignity of married staus - to call themselves a married couple and to get the benefits of such.

Exactly - and he accuse me of not being serious or what have you. My posts in this thread have been entirely serious and to the point. And BTW thank you Anoushik - for this and your previous post. I know that I don;t speak for the majority view at all here - but its still nice to see some support...

I do think that religious groups have advantages that are unfair and unconstitutional. They should not be exempt form taxation for instance - as they are money making entities - own property and what have you - so yes I have a problem with this. But my point is that your solution - that gays can mayrry the opposite sex if they want the benefits of marraige is exactly like imposing someone elses religion on another person - yeah pray to whomever you wish - but we will only recognize Christian churches as religious institutions with special breaks and such...

Typical silly non answer. Obvioulsy animals do not have the same status as humans - cannot own property and such - cannot testify in court and what have you. And I might agree on polygamy and such (I'm not at all against it) -but it is a more complicated legal matter. The fact is we have thousands and thousands of gay PEOPLE who are partners who are deserving of the same benefits and recognition as anyone else in thier situation -- this is the issue. This animal stuff is just a silly non-argument...

The system specifically gives these breaks for those who are married pairs. These folks are such in all but legal status - and this is cruel punishment - they deserve recognition they don;t deserve to be discriminated against - which is exactly what is happening.

Thats like saying you can practice any religion you want but you can only go to a Christian Church - the others are not allowed...