Harut

quote:Originally posted by nairi:Then why is it that we allowed the Ottomans to push us into becoming cruel, but we refuse to reverse the situation now that we are free and independent? who said that our free and independent counterparts (ie people in Armenia) aren't reversing the situation. just look at the youth of Armenia. how many of them are living the way people used to live 10-20 years ago?

quote:Originally posted by nairi:I have a second cousin, born and raised in Armenia, virgin until marriage, and yet persecuted by her father, until today, for allowing her husband to divorce her. Not only has she been ostracized from the community for being a lousy wife (simply because she was found boring by her husband; not because she had an affair), her father is still after killing her AND her child, whom he considers a bastard since the husband left. nairi, this person is not the norm, he is an exception. my second cousin married a black man and was pragnent before marriage but nobody was after killing her or her child. true, people (extended famlily members, parents) were shocked at the beginning but NOBODY had such intentions. she is never left out of any occasions, neither is her husband. in fact she, with her husband and kid, has moved to live in her parents' multi-unit house, next door to her parents and other Armenian tenants.

let me make something clear. i was not advocating complete celibacy before marriage. neither was i justifying any "human rights violations" that occur around the issue. by my previous posts i was trying to show what to expect when communicating with people who believe in that way of life.

Sip, i have two papers due in two weeks. but as you see, instead of doing reseach or at least writing the cover pages , i devote my time to HyeForum.

we don't find appropriate when women/girls show off their brests in the public (or do we?). but just think... only some 500 years ago people felt the same way when women showed off their ears, their legs, ... now, imagine what would happen (the paranoia, the anger, the confussion, the way people would respond...) if suddenly some people from some distant land came and said that women should be allow to wear bikinis and go to beaches. do you now see what is happening among people who never were expossed to the idea of having sex before marriage, and that being considered ok? people/societies put finite line between what is appropriate and what is not. they don't accept it very easily when someone comes and says "you know what, we think the line should be up here not down there" we say people evolve, moving the line up and down to adjust. correct. but it's wrong to push people to evolve faster than the natural pace. it would harm the society. it would put the society in the danger of losing its integrity, its values, everything they believe in, everything they've got. we don't go to the jugles of amoson and say to the people living there "ok, stop acting foolish. stop making that sily hole in your lips. put down that axe. wear some suit and start making some investments in the market." ------- i'll just stop here. the bikinis and the wild sense of the imaginary France are messing up my thoughts. just think, the surrface that bikinis cover are getting smaller and smaller. does that mean we are moving towards the imaginary France? now that would be cool. [ October 04, 2002, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: Harut ]

to those of modern mentality. imagine this... in a couple of years we learn that in, let's say, France people started appearing in public totaled naked, because they think that it is the most natural way of life. they justify it by uncomprehendable [to us] explanations that it is very natural to show off your body parts, it is the most democratic way of life letting people express themselves, there is nothing wrong letting other people enjoy your looks and vis versa, blah blah blah.... now, what kind of impact would that have on you? and then, we learn that some people in US also started practicing that way of life. you get worried (maybe not, i don't know). then, few days later, you see your doughter/sister just about to exit the house totally naked. now, what kind of impact would that have on you? and then, you start to make a conversation with her. and she responses that it is her life, and she does howevery she finds it to be the best for her. and she thinks this is the best way for her to express herself and the best way to satisfy her natural needs of showing off her body. now, what kind of impact would that have on you? and, what would you do then? just let her go, because that is what makes her happy?

just to make the discusion even more juicy and some people even more paranoic.... why should women have the same rights (by law or by social traditions)? don't men deserve more rights and prevelegies than women?

just an idea came up while reading C++... "society is abstract in its kind. it does not contain right or wrong values, but values that we put in, in accordance to the time, place, situation, and majorly out of personaly instinct." ---Harut had you seen nerdy philosopher before.

and just before i leave the topic today, i want to make another note... what Tigrannes and i (sort of) said is generlization. there is a portion of people (male and female. in Armenia and outside) that find nothing wrong (and practice themselves) in sex before marries (at having sex in general). ======== [yah, and before i forget to mention, there are Armenia sluts and prostitutes too. ] [ October 03, 2002, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Harut ]

and to make just one more note... (sorry, but one more time, at least untill very recently) girls/women don't express thier sexual desires, (don't try to practice them) and get repressed by male or whoever. most of they just don't to begin with, because they don't see that kind of behavior among older people. they don't see their parents kissing in public. they don't see their parents expressing their love in public. they don't see other older people talking about sex. they don't see their friends talking about sex. they don't see sex shop around the corner. etc. etc. etc. things that are common in Western Societies. now, this is right or not is another issue.

quote:Originally posted by nairi:they do not want to be dominated by the males in their family anymore. nairi, male dominance has only partial impact on this issue. there are many girls/women who live alone (even not alone but), free of any family repression.but still many or them (agian, at least until very recently) prefer not to have sex before marriage. it goes back to the isse of "baroyakanutyun".

quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:Any Armenian girl who has had sexual relations with an odar prior to marriage is more or less worthless and should more or less be ostracized from the community. common Tigrannes.... what about those in Armenia? do we load them into trains and send to Turkey? ======= [oh, i've got better idea. how about we give them sexual minority status. ] [ October 03, 2002, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Harut ]

there are (at least there used to be until very recently) two essential, interrelated concepts in Armenian society: "namus" and "baroyakanutyun". (i can't even find equavalent words for them in English) in order to understand (maybe THEN (un)justify) the issue of virginity (and whole lot more), one needs to understand those concepts first. thier importance, thier role, thier origins, etc... in Armenian society. it's not an easy task to do so. it's impossible to read about it in the book and completely cmprehend it. one has to live with it, prefferablely on both side of those concepts, in order to understand them. and only then you can follow or not to those concepts.

ok, stop. it's not nice anymore. ============ Tigrannes, even though i can fully understand your viewpoint (i lived first 16 years of my life among people with that viewpoint), you are expressing it in very crapy way. and that is what makes people upset. also, before trying to explain others what lies beneeth that kind of mentality, try to really understand that yourself. as far as i see you don't really know it yourself. take care.

quote:Originally posted by AMD.PL.: quote:Originally posted by Domino: Domino said to Harut: “I am two times older than you "WERE", when I was as old as you are now. When you will be as old as I am now, we together will be 63 years old.” I was two times older than Domino was, when Domino and Harut togeter were 27. How old am I? 45

just to make a point... there are words in Armenian,(let's take the word mentioned above by MJ for example: "odanav") that are pronounced in EA the same way as they are pronouced in WA. even if it ("odanav") is spelled O-Da-Ayb-n-a-v, it is still pronounced as "otanav". and there are many more such words. Hakop(spelled: Hakob), ot(spelled: od), antam(spelled: andam), .......

next time use another French-English translator. j/k 21 28 but you're still lying. i'm not 21.

my bulk folder at yahoo gets packed daily with all kinds of nonsense e-mails. but just before emptying it, i scan through the names to make sure that there isn't anything important there by accident. so, today i was doing just that, scanning through the names, and guess who i found there? Sender: Hivand Apush it was from some kind of mortgage company.

guys, Domino is lying!!!!! i don't know about him being 27, but i'm not 18!!!

quote:Originally posted by Domino:I am two times older than you BS!!!

yes chem hasknar, vonch mek chi hasknar!!!

quote:Originally posted by Sip:Always nice to hear about Armenians that can kick some ass!!!! unlike that fast guy that always goes to fights late.

quote:Originally posted by Outdoorgirl:Harut... No I don't study in Bryusov. This institution is not for me for sure. Never had a desire to become a teacher, translator e.t.c. I study business. i just asked because i have a friend that studies there that could've been you. when i was leaving to US, she asked me two things: to call her and to send her a black guy. btw, i'm still looking for a black guy that would like to live in Armenia. i guess she needs to send her order to Africa.

Outdoorgirl, do you by chance study at Bryusov (that is, if you're a student)?

quote:Originally posted by THOTH:Most who have known me when I was young state that I haven't changed a bit THOTH, now don't start making fun of hagarag.