Artur

Armine jan, you have the wrong image. I respect an Armenian girl as none in this world. I can never say a bad word to an armenian girl. And for me nothing can or coulb be more respected than an armenian girl. And please don't say that i treat them bad. If tommorow i hear something outside Armenia happens to an Armenian girl, i will be there. And moreover, if i made you unhappy or i insulted or offended you, you can have my apologies. And please change the word "rule" over women, because it sounds like slaves, and i would never treat any armenian girl or woman like that. I hope you understand. With respect, Artur

DoC, first of all, i did not try to offend you or whatsoever. Second, how you do it, how you build your life and how you get on with your future wife does not concern me at all. Third, i cannot argue with you about brothers and sister, because you are too far away from me, and it doesn't mean in good way. If a sister does not respect her brother, then in my family it is a disgrace. And nothing to do with how you say p.... I respect my sister as none of the girls in this world, and respect for a sister cannot be higher than any girl. I respect my sister, and she knows that i love her as nobody in this world. Don't say that this is some kind of slavery, because girls have to listen to their brothers. It is nothing but RESPECT. And if there is no respect then i won't be able to call her a sister, but from the God's will this will never happen! And about growing up, i would say the same to you, but i am not an offensive person. But one thing i will tell: i have brothers who are elder than you and more experienced in the life than you, and believe there isn't much difference between my attitude and theirs. And about girlfriends, i don't call the girls i have(most of them are russians) girldfriends, i call them using different word("girlfriend" is too high term for them), and i surely won't be able to call my future wife a girlfriend, because it is too disrespectful term for her. So you can say that i've never had a girldfriend... With Respect, Artur

Well, MJ it looked more like an uncle or my brother posting... but... I can not argue and dicuss about family, saying this will definetly happen or his will surely be like that, because i am not married and people change and their attitudes change when they become a father or a mother. But i have the views and attitudes which are fundament for this. But, i think that the difference between my grandfather(RIP) and father is not very large. And about the last part, i don't try to say that this is the armenian way, but trying to generalize, nowing many families and many friends in Armenia, Russia or Kazakhstan makes me generelize in this way. With respect, Artur P.S. BTW i have relatives that would never allow their women to sit in the same table as men, top mountain armenians And i have respect for these people, because none of us keeps traditions as they do.

DoC, first of all don't put the word Lord in your posting taalking about ... Second, there is no need for explaining what girls do and don't. And this does not mean that we should leave this messege in this forum. It is not a big deal to delete it, because nobody really thinks of good about this translation... what is the problem? I mean is this post vital for our forum... don't think so... do young kids come to this forum... some might... is this what they should read in Armenian Forum? Not in Armenian one, for sure! Show some respect to your nation and to the girls! And the idiot who sings this song needs to be hanged. Anyways, God is the judge for him!!! AA

quote:Originally posted by Azat: Artur, assuming the above is true, would you be in favor of a family where the man does the house work and the woman works? What if the wife was able to earn more money than husband? If wife earns money, and man sits at home, then he is not a man, is he? Dragon, well, the most of people work, and the final target is to earn money, and they will seek another job to earn more money. Now, my sisters, from the God's will, will never work, or if they do something, then it is only a hobby, and does not affect the family. BTW, what was that dialog about? ::: )) Also i am not old'fashioned, i am traditional AA

quote:Originally posted by wh00t: If you're worried that 11 and 12 year olds will be corrupted by it, trust me; at 12 years old, hearing this stuff is nothing new. For you. And your statement does mean that we should always post this kind of lyrics. And if our moderators would care about kids coming to this forum they would edit the message and leave the notice for mailing. Well, no comment...

quote:Originally posted by Azat: Artur, I do know that in many parts of the world including in Armenia this is how many(if not majority) of families function. I do however think that this is changing in Armenia as well where the most man(and this is not a sign of good or bad fathers) can not afford to raise a family with a single income. I think that you would agree with me that your way of thinking is old fashioned. The thing that I was surprised/questioned is why a young man like you feels that woman's role is in the house cleaning and all the chores related to the family. My mother quit work when she had kids until we were 10-11 year old, but returned to work after that. I personally think that a woman should work. I do not believe in a family where it is the husband working alone. And this has noting to do with weather I can afford to earn enough money to keep a family or not. Even if I had 10 million dollars, I would still work, so why shouldn't my wife. I think working women are more independent and can make decisions on their own and I respect/expect that from women. I think(and I could be wrong, you guys know I am wrong all the time) an educated woman who has a successful career is much more interesting to converse with than one who is home all day taking care of the house. I understand your point. And i said in the beggining if a family is in good financial condition i don't think that woman working is necessary, and there can be only one reason for woman working is financial problems in the family. Moreover, about woman cleaning washing etc. Which course are you doing? If you are doing business, then you should know that separation of target, when one person is taking care of one aspect and the second is the other side, then they will achieve the target more efficient. Same in the family: Woman - house, Man - work. And nothing wrong or extreme with that. And from some point of view it is an "old-fashioned" way, but i regard it all-time "modern-effecient" AA

First of all, she respects me and she won't go against my word. Maybe for you it is strange, because in American society, girls go against the word of brothers and a father, surely not in mine! It is disgrace when girls do that. But that's not the point. If my sister wants to be a painter, fine! Musician, fine! Doctor, good. But nothing that goes for earning money, i don't want her to learn the dirty world of money. That's the reason. I hope you understand. My sister is only 14, and she is very good piano player, and if she decides to be pianist, i will be more than happy. But it surely will be like a hobby and not a job.

MJ, good post. First of all, father is the head, host. His word should be the last. About kids. I always respected my father, and could never argued with him. And always his punishment could be the worst in my life. In Attitude to a son, a kid should feel that father is a respectable person, and you cannot argue or go against his word. This respect should be with you for the rest of your life. But when you are 15-18, as being the esldest in the family, he tries more talk with you like an equal man, discussing the business, family aspects about his brother etc. However, this is not a sign that you can talk with your father in totaly equal way as you talk with a friend, never! It is because you are grown, and the same respect should go for rest of your life. I agree, as MJ says, that in some age the relationship between father and a son should be some kind of partnership, but it should not go beyond discussing. And if goes beyond that and a child argues or does not agree with father and it leads to a huge argument, then this is the biggest disrespect. About "toughness", father has to be always "tough", better word would be strict with a son, more with a son rather a daughter. And thru this a child has to learn respect. However, this does not mean that father should hit a child or whatsoever. My father never raised his hand over me, but when he punishes or teaches me, he explains my mistakes. Moreover, i agree that one of the duties of father is to raise a child. In combination of earning money and raising child, father should have some time for kids e.g. taking to swiming pool, going to a park etc. But the main part is left for a mother. And nothing in the world can be more appreciatable than what mothers do for us. Mother's role within the family is the most important. Raising kids, taking care of them, spending nights in helping doing the homework etc. can never be compared to any kind of caring in the world. Artur

DoC, Azat, i don't understand your reaction. What the difference make how old i am. For generations none of women in my family worked. I don't know any woman of all my relatives that is working. I trully don't understand your reactions. Moreover it seems that you don't understand my attitude or it is strange for you. I'll explain, the duties of men and women in the famaly: Woman: cleans, cooks, takes care of kids most of the time, makes sure that the table is prepaired etc. Man: earns money (takes care of financial aspect), makes sure that the kids and a wife get the best out of life etc. Does this sound weird to you or what? For me, it is just the typical, the most efficient way, that most of Armenians apply to. And about women, as my sisters, i seriously reject any attitutes towards working or earning money in regard to my sisters. Artur

Well, i personally think that women should put their effort in education, carrear. However, i think if family can afford then, there is no need for a woman to work. And don't forget that the first duty and the first job of a woman is to be a mother, and nothing can be more important than the kids. If some women don't think this way, then she shouldn't be a mother. And if God permits my family to be in good financial condition, there will be no discussions about my wife working. Artur

I think the translation of this song has to be deleted from this forum. Many kids and girls might visit the forum. If anyone interested in translation mail him or her. Moreover, the culture is falling because MJ, Aghmug and MosJan are sitting silently instead of deling this post, you are all in charge of it... don't sleep. Artur [ April 16, 2001: Message edited by: Artur ]

quote:Originally posted by dragon: Man who refuses sexual offers from woman have some reasons, such as: He might be married and happy in his marriage. He won't cheat his wife. Dragon What? ok, probability that this is true is 0.000001% Dragon you forgot the main reason: The woman that offers can be really, i mean really "not beautiful". ) Arturian

No way! Such a disgrace! : )) kidin kidin...

Well, the subject to the claim are the lands of eastern Turkey and even Nakhichevan. I personally don't support the idea of claiming our lands back, but nonetheless Armenians as the nation of Haik come from Eastern Turkey near the mountain of Ararat. And moreover, these are historically our homeland, including present day Armenia, which is a small eastern part of historical Armenia. About turks, there did not even appeared in the part of the South Caucasus and/or Eastern Turkey before armenians were living their. Even though the idea of claiming the lands seem to be crazy but there are people who support it, and moreover there are politicians nowadays who start compaigns for demanding the lands, e.g. Hairikian, who demands, Nakhichevan, Kars and Ardahan, as they were given to Azerbaijan and Turkey in 1921 by Russia (Treaty of Kars).

quote:Originally posted by Anna: The song is so funny. I don't really have a problem with the lyrics of "overprotective dad" because that's the reality & that's the way it is today for american, black, french or armenian. The times have changed. "Reality" in your own eyes. And thing will change unless you change. To be honest i don't really care what some punks sing, but i would love to ask a question to them, what if they would have a daughter. Will they just let their girls to be used by someone, while they are watching CNN night news. Artur

DoC. If you want my opinion, i will give you. I think it is worst to hit a wife. If person hits his wife being just drunk or whatsoever, there is no explanation for him, it is disgrace. This is the first part of my answer. The second part, as you ask if woman cheats. If a wife cheats, even though i cannot picture this in regard to my family or my relatives, i think she deserve a death or at least husband should through her away back to her parents. And i am serious when i say this, if you think of a wife as the mother of your children, then what kind of explanation can there be for her to cheat on her husband. It says only one thing: she doesn't deserve to be a mother of your children and moreover can't be your wife. She does not care about her kids and husband but cares more about her sexual fantasies. This is detestable and moreover unforgivable. However, in the case of girlfriend, then i think just to get rid of her will do, not a big thing. DoC, this is my opinion and my point of view and as you wanted to know i explained my position. Regards, Artur

Gayan, what was that all about? : )))))) By the way, what made you to open this forum, what are the objective? Or our women became so modern that they can discuss their issues publically... a? And what issues? When to get married, when to have a kid, how to wash the clothes, how to cook... hehe. Anyways, don't take it personally i am just kidding, and good luck with this forum. By the way if you are to open the cooking forum, i will join you, teach me how to cook Armenian Gharit (fried potato). So far i can only make a Fried/Scrumblled Egg and Khorovats. Always whowing the highest respect to Armenian girls, Artur [ April 11, 2001: Message edited by: Artur ]

quote:Originally posted by DoC: As a pro-feminist, male, heterosexual, armenian, I have only one thing to say....YOU GO GIRLS!!!! Good sence of humour, bro )

Well, DoC, first you have to change the word fear because it doesn't really make sence. The thing is that, feminist is not an armenian girl or woman type thing, that is the answer. Let me ask forum members if anybody can call herself a feminist? BTac, you are right, i personally think that man has to make all decsions in the house rather than woman. I have relatives, that wouldn't even allow their wifes to sit in the same table when men are sitting. In my family women can not also sit around the table while men are discussing something, women cannot intervene business dialogs or something like that. In Europe or America, families which have lived all their lives adopted the western mentality, which is for me too complecated . However, there are armenian families who live in the US or Europe still keeping the tradition and culture within the family. I think, every woman should know her place in this life and understand her duties and what they are here on the earth for . Artur [ April 09, 2001: Message edited by: Artur ]

I think complecated for your society as well. Look, all these arguments with wives, disagreement, sometime women don't even listen to their husbands etc. All this: i will do what i want to do, i will get this job and things like that. Well, the less complicated, is: No, i don't think it is good'. => Ok. By the way have you seen American Beauty? It is disgusting, the right word is disgusting what kind of families there can be, how kids treat their parents etc. By the way film is so &$£$% ... it just shows the typical american family. By the way whats that got to do with women intervening the business dialogs? I personally think women shouldn't intervene business at all, i.e. not discussing with your wife. But the most funniest are the husbands of these wives, who submit themselves to their wives. Ah, i have lived in the English family when i was like 14. Check this picture: Wife: Dave, are you going to wash the kids clothes or what.. Dave: Yes, my love, of course, my love... Hehehe... Anyways, enough of funny stories. Take it easy. By the way Kazza, if you say you are a feminist i will jump over the window, i won't believe... Artur

Well, Kazza, have you heard that in June the new Armenian Church is opening in London. It is sponsored by Vatche Manukian who put about £5 mil, which is about $8 mil US. The church is huge, and can hold about 1000 visitors at once. The official day of opening is the first of June if i am not mistaken, I'll be home that time, and from the God's will I'll visit it in the october this year. Artur

Who opened this forum??? ::)) And what are you going to discuss here??? Who is better Ricky Martin or Hayko or something... :) Xndaluc mera... ) Anyways, hope to see some kind of proper topic rather than something feminist. By the way, i really believe there are no feminists in this forum and even an armenian, not our girls type Good luck! Artur

http://www.kavkaz-club.com/cognac/ararat.jpg

WE KNOW GOD EXISTS There are two kinds of arguments for God s existence. The first affirms His existence from the use of reason; and the second grows out of the historical existence of Christ. The arguments from reason begin with the premise that this world does not contain its own explanation. As we know our world, it is a planet revolving about the sun, ninety-three million miles away. The sun itself is not the center of the universe. At the same time there are manmade satellites revolving about the sun. If we ask who put them there and how did they get there, the answer is that scientists put them there using rocket-stages to get them into orbit. If another satellite went into orbit again we would ask how it got there. We would remain unsatisfied until we discovered that the agents were the Russians or the Americans or the British. The same mental instinct which demands to know who has put a rocket into orbit around the earth, also demands to know who has put the earth into orbit around the sun. To answer that the earth is just there and so is the sun leaves us dissatisfied because it offers no explanation. This is another way of stating that there is no effect without a cause. Common sense is always looking for causes to explain events. Police find a dead man on the road. How did it happen; was it a hit-and-run driver? Did the man fall out of the car? Who is he? Who did it? We know when we are causing something. I drive a golf ball from the first tee. Something happens because I make it happen. Nothing happens without a cause. A plane crashes and there is an investigation called because common sense assures us that nothing happens without a cause. The cause is there, even if we cannot discover it. What or who caused the earth? Whatever, whoever brought this vast immense universe into being cannot be less than the universe. No cause can be less than its effect. A man with strength to lift only half a ton cannot lift a whole eon. If he lifts a eon he must have that much muscular strength. We are then dealing with a Power of some sort of immensity to explain the immensity of that universe we observe. What sort of Power can it be? Day follows night with regularity; season follows season; trees, flowers, animals all follow a certain and predictable course of behavior. What happens is so well-defined that we can say they happen according to laws in nature. The Power is a law-giver, a law-maker Who gives testimony of intelligence. This immense Power of terrifying Intelligence (we are still making fresh discoveries of design in nature) is subject to the same question. Who caused it or Him? If it or He is the effect of another Cause, there must be behind Him another Cause, of which He is the effect; or He must be without a Cause because He IS of Himself and not of another. Ultimately there must be a Being That Is, a Supreme Cause Who depends upon no other for His existence. The Reflection of God in The World We are not content with the statement that God made the universe. We ask further what is His relation to it? How is He present in the universe He has made? There are some who think that He is infinitely removed from it; and others who say that He is so much in it as to be identified with it. The first set of thinkers are so impressed by the absolute perfections of God that they think He would be diminished in some way, unless He were cut off from it. He is the architect but once the building has been made He leaves it to stand by itself. The second group are so impressed by the world as an expression of the Divine Artistry that they think God is in the universe as the singer is in the song. The order they see in the universe is God in the universe, which as it evolves, expresses the growth of God in perfection Group one assumes that the Supreme Cause is not interested in His effects. Group two assumes that the Supreme Cause is not supreme, and in identifying Him with His creation asserts that He is not perfection but is growing thereto. Midway between these two extremes is the view that God is the Supreme Cause from Whom all things ultimately proceed to their separate existence. God is thus the ground of all beings but remains the Separate One. In this view God is so perfect that He needs nothing outside Himself, yet, nevertheless He has, out of love, produced a finite and limited world in a vast universe. This world is, then, an expression of the Divine Artist and, by a consideration of the things that He has made, it is possible to see a little of the Divine Imprint; in the same way we examine a portrait and determine its authorship by some great painter. Of all things we can ask a threefold question. We ask-on what plan was this conceived? Some material thing, such as a flower or a dog, contains within it an idea, a blueprint, a form. We say to ourselves that the blueprint of the flower is to ensure the continuance of a plant species by the formation of seeds. Then we ask-why was it made in the first instance? What is its ultimate purpose? And lastly we ask--who made it? Consider these aspects at work in an artist. He is, shall we say, a sculptor. Before he chisels his stone he must have an idea of what he wants to do. Secondly he must have a purpose, an intention to carry out his plan; and lastly he must put his plan into effect. Omit any of these and no statue will be made. The final work will embody the artist-his idea, his purpose, his skill in execution. Wisdom God is embodied in His universe as the Wisdom Who conceived it, as the Will Who carried out the cosmic project and as the Power Who sustains it. As Wisdom God is in the butterfly and the bird. They are both composed of living matter, but they belong to different orders of animal creation. What makes the living matter of the one a butterfly and the living matter of the other a bird, is the different conception of animal that each enshrines. The idea or the form is a reflection in matter of the idea that exists in the mind of the Divine Artist. Every tree and every flower embodies an idea in the Divine Mind and speaks of God as a poem speaks of its author. The wisdom of God in creation is in its last analysis the reason why we know. When we learn, it is because we discover the form or idea hidden in the material composition of what we study. Unlike animals we have the X-ray power to penetrate material things and find what is in them. What is printed on this page is so many letters strung into words-material things made our of pulp and print. You the reader, rake the meaning out of them. Dr. Alexis Carrell in his Reflections on Life puts it this way ..."all (scientific) research begins with an act of faith in the rational ordering of nature." Unless nature made sense, it could not be studied. When we study it we learn a little of the divine ideas. Goodness God is in things secondly by His goodness. To things he has given a purpose. Plants are green because they contain a pigment, and the pigment has the power of absorbing energy from light and using that power to bond together inorganic materials in the atmosphere and make of them sugars and starches. In this way natural food granaries are formed and upon them feed animals, and upon them we ourselves feed and maintain ourselves in existence. The plant which makes starch and the animals which feed upon it follow blindly a purpose they do not understand. The urge by which a plant or an animal follows the law of its nature is what we mean, then, by purpose. Man must discover his own purpose by using his reason. That purpose, the urge of a rational nature, is to discover the truth and goodness of God. We discover goodness in things when we experience love for them. A man loves his automobile because it serves him, gets him around, is a delight to drive. A man loves his wife because of the goodness he finds in her. In courting days he was discovering that goodness and feeling more and more attraction to it. At the same time he was finding out more about her-what sort of common interests they shared and so on. Eventually he decided that he wanted to unite with her in marriage. Love teaches us how good things and people are, and the more we love the more we want to be united with what we love, to possess and be possessed. In this sense our purpose in life is to know and love God -to seek His truth and His goodness. Without God there is no explanation for the rational ordering of same-no satisfactory explanation of our own existence. Without God there is no explanation of our purpose in life, and of our need to have a master purpose in life. Without God there is no explanation of what we mean. We are like satellites coasting in orbit and no one fired us, like arrows speeding through the air and no bowman or archer to explain them. Where did we come from, where do we go-in a meaningless orbit, from nothingness and into nothingness without explanation? Power God is in things by His power. To Moses He said "I am who am." All of us have existence, but of God it can be said simply that He exists. Our existence is partial, from moment to moment. He possesses the whole of His existence at once. Our existence is limited-our bodies die, we are chained to space and time, controlled to some extent by pleasure and pain. If nothingness ever were, then nothing would ever be. How can something come from nothing? Only if there is a Being Whose Being demands existence can there come from nothingness the universe that we know. All the things that are owe their being to God in the same way as the rays of the sun come from the sun. God then is in His world by His knowledge, by His love and by His power. This triple action comes from a Supreme Being Who is a Spirit. For God is not tangible and He is not visible and in Him there is nothing of material composition. For material things can suffer change because they are composed of parts and can be taken apart. To suffer change is itself an imperfection. And God is perfect, otherwise He is not God. He is the Supreme Spirit Who is changeless, one and entire in His wholeness for He is not made of parts, possessing all of His Being all at once. He is greatness without limit; He is all that without beginning and without end; all that He does is likewise without beginning and without end. None of His loving and none of His knowing have vanished into a past, nor have more knowledge and more love yet to come. Past and future belong only to creatures who receive their being from moment to moment. God lives, God knows, God loves, God is in one eternal now without effort and without limit.