Dave

I guess the Europeans beleive that Turkey will never recognize it, so if they effectively make it a condition for EU accession, Turkey won't enter the EU.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4092933.stm Turkey 'must admit WWI genocide' France has said Turkey must improve its human rights record France has said it will ask Turkey to acknowledge the mass killing of Armenians from 1915 as genocide when it begins EU accession talks. French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier said Turkey had "a duty to remember". Armenians say 1.5 million of their people died or were deported from their homelands under Turkish Ottoman rule. France is among a group of nations that class the killings as genocide. Turkey denies any organised genocide, claiming they were quelling a civil uprising. Mr Barnier said France did not consider Turkish acknowledgement a condition of EU entry, but insisted his country would raise the issue once talks opened. Speaking to reporters after a meeting of EU foreign ministers to discuss plans to invite Turkey for accession talks, Mr Barnier said Turkey "must carry out this task as a memorial". In addition, France believes that accession talks should not begin before the second half of 2005, Mr Barnier said. Turkey has pushed for immediate negotiations. "I believe that when the time comes, Turkey should come to terms with its past, be reconciled with its own history and recognise this tragedy," Mr Barnier said. 'So-called genocide' His comments drew no immediate official response from Turkey, which has consistently denied orchestrating genocide and the Armenian figures. A foreign ministry spokesman in the Turkish capital, Ankara, told Reuters that Turkey has never and will never recognise "any so-called genocide". Armenia alleges that the Young Turks, in 1915 the dominant party in the Ottoman Empire, systematically arranged the deportation and killing of 1.5 million Armenians. Turkish relations with independent Armenia, which borders Turkey to the north, have long been coloured by the issue. Around 300,000 Armenians live in France, more than in any other European country, and community leaders have pledged to pressure French President Jacques Chirac on the genocide issue during Turkish accession negotiations. France passed a law officially recognising the Armenian genocide in 2001, cooling relations with Turkey and scuppering a major arms deal. Another 14 nations, including Switzerland, Russia and Argentina, also classify the killings as genocide. All I can say is: Good work French-Armenians! and In your faces Turks of Valence

Don't be surprised if some of the Caliphs or Sultans had some Armenian blood in them. They used to mistreat the Christians (Assyrians, Armenians, Greeks, etc.) by ''stealing'' their finest women and putting them in harems. A site about the Assyrian Genocide says that since the 13th century, the Christians had to pay special taxes, were periodically massacred (even during Arab rule)... Because of these pressures, some Christians converted to Islam. I guess because of Armenia's landscape or because of the ''rebellious instincts'' of the Armenians in certain regions, such as Sassoun, Artsakh, Zeitun, we resisted.

As far as I know, they became Greeks or ''Hellenes'' when the Romans/Byzantines conquered those areas and imposed their language, culture, and religion. The Greeks even tryed to do that to us, but in most part, they didn't succeed (maybe because they didn't hold Armenia as long as Pontus, Galatia or Cappadocia, for example) They also relocated (don't mistake this with the Turkish ''relocations''!) the Armenians around Sivas/Sebastia in Central Anatolia, or in Philippopolis/Plovdiv, Bulgaria, because the Greeks needed good cavalry...

The Armenian province of northern Iraq was held only during late antiquity. That province was called Gordchaik/Gordyene/Korduk (which is most probably a way of saying ''Kurdistan''.

Yes. The turks used to chop of the tongues of the Armenian speakers, especially in the Cilician region (which was barbarous... but at least they let us keep our faith) The Apostolic Christian faith of the Turkish speaking Armenians was unfortunately the only thing differenciating them from the Muslim Turks. btw Janissary is the English version of Yeni Cheri. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries

The Anjar/Musaler dialect is a good example of what the Armenian parpars look like. It might be true that Armenian speakers were persecuted, but maybe those Armenians who only spoke Turkish, and who escaped the genocide didn't want to admit that they were assimilated... I once saw a book (like a dictionnary) giving you the definitions of particular parpar words used in different regions of Armenia.

In Armenian, Dagger is Tashouyn (probably pronounced Dashouyn in Eastern Armenian). In the Tashnag logo, the dagger/sword symbolizes armed struggle. There's also a city in Iran called ''Shiraz''. This name is sometimes used by Armenians, and also by Indians. Other names that come from Persian that probably weren't mentionned here are Mher, Mihran, Anahid (names of Ancient Persian gods and godess), Souren (name of a general that was able to beat the invading Romans), etc.

You can always take a look at scanned article in netarmenie.com ftp://ftp2.netarmenie.com/netarmenp/4armeniens.jpg Or in this site, scroll down to see ''A Valence, Arméniens et Turcs s'affrontent'' It shows you a news clip. http://s.tf1.fr/manreo/video/news/lesjt/15...rge/tf1_ie.htm#

And now, look at how the US reacted... http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt...041130&hn=14274

I found it... For those who understand French: http://www.armenews.com/New/news.asp?id_news=6787

And some more from Turkish Press. Ironic, isn't it.

Where did you find this article?

Is harazad (relative) of Persian origin?

Maybe Dohm-Tohm has latin roots (domain, from latin dominium or dominus). It's more like ''o'clock'' - s'haa sitti means six o'clock. Here's a useful English-Arabic dictionary... Search ''time'', you'll find plenty of translated words (and زمن (zaman) is one of them). Each word is usable in different situations.

http://www.deepikaglobal.com/latestnews.asp?ncode=22629 Azeri officer admits killing Armenian with axe-MTI BUDAPEST, Nov 24 (Reuters) An Azeri officer who killed an Armenian with an axe at a Budapest military academy pleaded guilty in court, saying he took revenge for Armenian attacks on Azeris, Hungarian news agency MTI reported. Former Soviet republics Armenia and Azerbaijan declared an uneasy ceasefire after going to war in 1988, part of a long and bitter territorial dispute. ''It was not my plan to be so cruel, savage,'' 27-year-old Ramil Safrov Sahib told the court yesterday. When asked why he almost severed the head of the victim he said ''because they did the same to 8,000 people of ours''. In February, Sahib entered the Armenian's room, stabbed him several times with a knife and struck him repeatedly with an axe, almost severing his head. The pair were on an English language course run under the auspices of NATO's Partnership for Peace. Sahib was charged with committing premeditated murder with extreme cruelty, and faces possible life imprisonment if found guilty, a Budapest Capital Court press official told Reuters.

The common word for jewellery is vosgeghen. I had found the word Kohar in a book. There is a slight difference between the two. Psiat is bsiat in Arabic form. There is also an armenian verb ''gerdel'' which means to create , to make. Or the verb ''kertel'' (to chisel, to carve) I use Western Armenian. And I always thought it comes from arabic ''abadan'' (forever). It made sense (I used to think Islamabad means Islam forever)

I'm not sure if the words ''Kertasdan'' (dynasty) or ''ashgerd'' (someone who is learning a job) or ''ashagerd'' (student) are of Persian origin... The last part of some city names, like Dikranagerd, Vagharshabad, or Sartarabad come from Farsi. (Abad comes from the Arabic word abadan, though) Armenian also borrowed some words from Arabic. Such as: Psiat, Khsir (both mean types of rugs I think) Zaman (arabic) - Jamanag (Armenian) It means time Kohar (precious stone or jewelry) Sheytan (Arabic) - Sadana (Armenian)

Not even 40,000! Recent studies show 100,000 victims since the start of the Iraqi occupation.

You two have a point... Here's some more. Yerevan Mellows about Genocide Claim It is reported that this year the Armenian government has not included an article about the so-called genocide in the 2005 budget draft that has been sent to Parliament. According to the Armenian Arminfo news agency, the decision to improve relations with Turkey, Georgia and Iran was included in the draft of foreign policy priorities of the government. While the news has not been officially confirmed, Ankara evaluated Armenia's omission of the so-called genocide article from the budget draft as a positive step. Diplomatic sources said that although this omission was important, it would not be enough to normalize relations between the two countries. There remain articles in Armenia's constitution, which are against Turkey's territorial integrity. In the draft sent to the Parliament, there were some expressions such as providing for the security of the country, maintaining stability and democracy and providing a peaceful and fair solution for the Nagharno Karabagh problem. The Azerbaijani daily Express reported that Turkish and Armenian diplomats would meet in Istanbul next week to discuss the establishment of diplomatic relations between the two countries and also how Yerevan's policy about the so-called genocide would be handled, but there was no official confirmation of the meeting. Ankara indicates that Armenia should first take some steps to solve the Karabagh problem. In Armenia's former budget drafts, there was an apparent policy about the recognition of the so-called genocide by Turkey by other countries. Commentators claim that the article about the 'security of the country' was related with the genocide claims and that Yerevan cannot give up its claims about genocide in the short term. In the 11th article of the Declaration of Armenian Independence it states, 'Armenia will support activities to provide the international recognition of genocide in Ottoman Turkey and West Armenia (East Anatolia).' http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt...041107&hn=13675

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt...041107&hn=13657 In a decision hailed by Azerbaijan press as 'historical', Armenia has given up its policy to have the so-called genocide recognized in the international area. The Express newspaper published quoted some members of Armenian Parliament saying, "We took the necessary steps to protect peace and stability in the region by making this concession. The other side should evaluate this attitude of Armenian government." The Mirror newspaper declared, under the headline "Has Armenia dropped its genocide claim?" that there might be some clear positive developments in the policy of Armenia towards Turkey, commenting that rationalist politicians have started to gain weight in the Armenian administration. Do you beleive what this site is saying, or is it some old Turkish trick on the Armenians?

http://archquo.nouvelobs.com/cgi/articles?....nouvelobs.com/ La Turquie «n'a pas de problème» avec le génocide arménien, assure M. Erdogan PARIS (AP) -- La Turquie «n'a pas de problème au sujet du génocide arménien», a déclaré jeudi le Premier ministre turc Reccep Tayyip Erdogan, sans reconnaître publiquement le génocide de 1915. Lors d'une conférence de presse au siège de l'OCDE, le chef du gouvernement turc a invité les historiens arméniens à venir étudier les archives ottomanes qui «sont ouvertes». «Laissons les scientifiques, les historiens étudier cette question», a lancé M. Erdogan. «Une fois que cette question sera débattue de façon objectiven on verra ce qu'il en retourne», a poursuivi le Premier ministre turc. La non-reconnaissance par la Turquie du génocide de 1915 constitue l'un des obstacles à l'éventuelle adhésion d'Ankara à l'Union européenne. AP Erdogan said that ''Turkey doesn't have any problems with the Armenian genocide''. (What does that mean?) He invites Armenian historians to study the ottoman archives. ''Let us let the historians to study this issue''. ''When this is debated, we will see what results it will give''. Note that Erdogan isn't using the ''so-called'' recently, when asked about the Armenian genocide...

So you think that Turkey did this to be ''closer'' to the EU?

Turkey to sign up to International Criminal Court 21 October 2004 Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan announced late Wednesday that his country would sign and ratify the Rome statute that created the International Criminal Court, which rules on war crimes and crimes against humanity. "Turkey will sign and ratify the Rome statute" that created the ICC, Erdogan said during a debate organised by France's Institute for International Relations. Almost 100 countries have ratified the Rome treaty, which established the court in July 1998, but excluding the United States, which opposes the court. The court, headquartered in The Hague, began operating in July 2002. The ICC is mandated to try genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. During a dinner debate organised by the French Institute for International Relations, Erdogan urged France to back Turkey's bid for EU membership. He also stressed Turkey's historical line that there had been no genocide of Armenians under the Ottoman Empire during World War I. Turkey categorically rejects claims of genocide and says that between 250,000 and 500,000 Armenians were killed in civil strife when the Armenians rose up against their Ottoman rulers. "Those who claim there was an Armenian genocide have not had the opportunity to study the Ottoman archives," he said. "If they had then they would see a very different picture," he added. In 2001 the parliament in France, which has a sizeable Armenian minority, passed a law recognising the Armenian genocide. source: http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/041020231049.di4z7gp1 What do you think this means? Does this mean that Turkey will face the international court and be accused of the armenian genocide? Do you think Turkey will finally accept what happened in 1915?

Armenian prime minister hints Armenia may not send troops to Iraq as pledged By Associated Press, 10/15/2004 19:27 YEREVAN, Armenia (AP) Armenia's prime minister suggested Friday the Caucasus country might not send troops to Iraq, saying conditions there have changed since they were promised. Prime Minister Andranik Markarian stressed that it was up to the Constitutional Court and the parliament to make the decision on sending the troops even though Armenia's president pledged the troops during a visit to Poland last month. The 50 troops Armenia is considering sending bomb disposal experts, doctors and transport teams would work under Polish command in Iraq. Poland commands a multinational security force in central Iraq of about 6,000 troops, including more than 2,400 Polish soldiers. ''Let's not forget that ... there have been certain changes from the conditions under which we gave preliminary approval,'' Makarian said, Armenia, a former Soviet republic has sought to portray the decision to send troops to Iraq as a way to boost ties with Europe, but critics worry that it will endanger the 25,000-person Armenian community living in Iraq. ''We also have concerns on this count. It's possible that as a result Armenia could become of the targets of terrorists,'' Markarian said. Of the 12 former Soviet republics in the Commonwealth of Independent States, four Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Georgia have sent troops to Iraq. The Commonwealth is a loose successor to the Soviet Union. http://www.boston.com/dailynews/289/world/...r_hints_:.shtml I think this is good news, because the lives of the Armenians of Iraq will not be in danger... What do you think?