Vigil

Armenians always get the short end of the stick. Armenians die so the "western" world and Israel remains secure. 11 Jews die in Israel and it is on the news for days, but yet I have not seen any coverage on this incident. Why can't they (Muslims, Jews, and Christians) leave us alone?

Yeah, so, we must assume then that his children are Armenian because they have Armenian names.

Nakharar, sorry, but I do not agree with you. I classify Armenians as a race, ethnicity, and nationality. The point I was trying to make is that the Diaspora is taking Armenia for granted and, eventually, it will be taken away from us if we continue on this path.

No, point in voting Democratic in California due to the fact that this state is already a Democratic block. The states that will make a difference are the undecided ones like Florida.

Anileve, when did I ever state that "I am moving to Armenia"? You know as well as I do most of the adults in the Armenian communities are opposed to this idea. The Armenian youth is ridiculed and laughed at when they even mention the idea in public, while at the same time these "adults" want the next generation to remain Armenian in societies that oppose ethnocentrism, nationalism, and isolation. In America it is much more accepted to "assimilate" into the main stream. It is a uphill battle to maintain our roots in nations that are deliberately chopping at them. How can you remain Armenian when the media pushes for globalization and, ultimately, assimilation? You can not remain Armenian, which is why Armenians are going to go extinct, unless, drastic steps are taken by our leadership. The Diaspora wants to create little Armenian ghettos worldwide rather then work towards strengthening their nation. What is the point of me going to protest the actions of another government towards my people, when my people might not have a country in the future? There is no point, unless, Armenians maintain and improve Armenia. The entire idea of protesting for a nation that you are never going to move back to is a joke and a waste of time. The fact of the matter is that there are no more then eight million Armenians worldwide, six million in the Diaspora, while the remaining two million live in Armenia. Like I stated earlier, if you add a negative birthrate on top of those factors, Armenians, are headed for extinction. I am just stating that "Birthright" the program will not be the "magical" wonder drug that will "connect" Armenians to Armenia. The Diaspora has to maintain Armenia not because they feel that they are obligated to, but rather, because they want to. I do not have to travel to Armenia in order to connect with her, when the Diaspora can not even get along with one another. What bothers me the most is the fact that the recent bad publicity is due to the actions of Armenians. Today, I was having lunch with my Armenian (Paskahye) and Hispanic co-workers. We were having a good time until my Armenian co-worker began talking about how all Armenians have been into fraudulent activities. Not surprisingly, my Hispanic co-worker agreed with him. Now, you know what is going to happen? That Hispanic co-worker is going to connect a negative co-notation with any Armenian he sees driving a nice car or living in big home. Eventually, the very same Armenian that promoted these ideas will find himself being alienated by the very same American that he felt he was equal to. It gets better; later on he told that Hispanic co-worker of mine that Paskahyes are the equivalent of Spaniards, while Armenians from Armenia are the equivalent of Mexicans. Mexicans and Spaniards are culturally different and, just because, they speak Spanish it does not mean that they are related. Armenians are Armenian regardless of where they live. They are part of the same culture, ethnicity, and nationality. An Armenian has only one point of origin, Armenia. To state that Armenians and the Diaspora are two different entities is inconsistent. Anyways, this is the flat out stupid stuff Armenians do in the name of "progression". They resort to calling one another "Armos", degrading their fellow Armenian, and promote segregation just so they can assimilate more quickly. Anileve, the bottom line is that Armenians are going extinct. No, pseudo-intellectual argument is going to convince me otherwise and unless we get are act together this will be our fate.

It is not a long term solution and in no way is it helping the Diaspora from assimilating, while at the same time, it is not bolstering progression for Armenia. Armat, there are roughly about 2 million Armenians left in Armenia and the population deflation is only getting worse. Add a negative birth rate in the mix and you are looking at extinction. I live in Los Angeles, which means that I do not need to “connect” with my motherland when there are many Armenians from Armenia living in and around my block. This is why the first problem the Diaspora has to address is the segregation among different sects of the Diaspora within their communities. If you do not believe go to you’re local high school and, immediately, you will notice different sects of the Diaspora sitting at different corners of the school yard. I am not trying to be a pessimist, but I just feel that Armenia needs more then someone “reconnecting” with her, rather, it needs a vision and solid foreign policy.

No, we are not all Armenian, equally, we are not all Japanese. I just want Armenians to claim to what is rightfully theirs. Our history has been overlooked for many years because we are small in numbers, but by no means is our history and people insignificant. We are the only link to the past and it is through us that the rest of the world can take a glimpse into the ancient world. However, latly more and more "western" schalors are being exposed to our history, so, do not be suprised if Armenia becomes the center of attention for a while.

Nakharar, I forget to mention in no way was I trying to pick on you.

Ditto

ONE OF MOST ANCIENT GRAINS FOUND IN SOUTH CAUCASUS AND MIDDLE ASIA FOUND IN ARMENIA YEREVAN, JULY 27. ARMINFO. While exploring the rocks in the canyon of the river Kasakh a group of Armenian and French archaeologists has found a monument of mesolite (epipaleolite) quite unique for the South Caucasus and Middle East region, says Boris Gasparyan, the head of the group, the employee of the Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography of the National Academy of Sciences of Armenia. Found in the Kmlo caves near the village of Apna, Aragatson region, were not only fragments of obsidian tools but also a wild wheat grain dating back from a period 10,000-8,000 years ago. If the experts confirm the age of the grain it will become one of the oldest grains ever found in the region's mesolite monuments (11,000-10,000 years ago). The discovered cultural layers are well preserved which is a good opportunity to collect enough scientific materials about the period. Despite threat of caving-in the archaeologists are going to continue the excavations. The group consists of three research teams. Besides the Kmlo caves they are exploring the traces of the man living in the areas of so called paleo lakes (middle paleolite). There they have found sites of primitive men who are assumed to do hunting, fishing and collecting. Another group is examining the rock paintings found in the cave Gegamavan I, 1 km of the Kmlo caves. The unique paintings are in ochre - a substance said to be used only in late eneolite and early bronze (IV-III). Meanwhile the Gegamavan I paintings date back from neolite. The neolite man proves to already master the linear drawing technique. The paintings depict animals mostly deer. So the findings have shown that the rock painting traditions widely presented in the mountains of Gegama, Sunik and Aragats are older than they were thought to be. The objective of the expedition is to study the ancient history of the use of obsidian as a tool of the primitive man. Obsidian tools are widely spread over the territory of historical Armenia and perfectly characterize social-economic relations of the Stone Age. The expedition is financed by Gfoeller Foundation (US). http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg90746.html

She is Italian as much as she is Armenian, so, to label her, exclusively, "Armenian" is an insult to Italians because you are assuming being Armenian is better than being Italian.

Well, we can not really assume they are the first; however, they are all that remains of the initial tribes that inhabited the Asia Minor.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with being "black" and I never stated that by being "black" there is something wrong with you. Also, equally, there is nothing wrong with trying to remain "white", which many equate to racism or prejudice. However, trying to racially darken the Armenian population to purposely diversify it is wrong. Furthermore, assuming that Armenians are not "white", when in fact evidence shows that Armenians were the first "white" civilization and the point of origin for many of our later contemporaries, is equally stupid. I do not want to get into this discussion so let us drop it here please.

Yes, it is a very interesting program, but unfortunately it will not drastically improve the situation in Armenia. If Armenians truly want Armenia to improve economically then they would have to actually relocate there. Armenians, do not want hand outs, they want jobs. It’s degrading them and will, eventually, affect our national identity in that we will lose our work ethnic and hope for a better future. Furthermore, I do not have to go to my homeland in order to "connect" with it. In the Los Angeles area there are many Armenians from Armenia that are being alienated by the Diaspora for the sheer fact that they have not assimilated into the mainstream. How can I call myself an "asgaser" if I can not even relate with Armenians from Armenia? I can not and to try to fill that void by trying to convert an "otar" into an Armenian will in no way be an adequate substitute for an actual Armenian. Domestically, the social situation in Los Angeles has to improve in order for the Diaspora to relate with Armenia. This is why I think it would better for the Diaspora to cut their ties with Armenia. I use to be a big proponent of this, but in the past couple weeks I am beginning to change my mind. The Diaspora continually presses for issues that in no way benefits Armenia and by doing so makes economic progress impossible for Armenia. For instance, the borders to Turkey must be opened for both countries to progress, but in order for this to happen the Diaspora must drop genocide claims. Living outside of Armenia, but yet claiming ownership to her, is wrong. If anyone wants to "claim ownership" then by all means they should move there or else it becomes a slow death for not just Armenia, but the Diaspora as well. The only way out of this predicament would be for the Diaspora to get there act in gear and do something progressive like investing in Armenia, but unfortunately no amount of "connection" with the motherland will convince many Armenians to invest in Armenia let alone move there. It is much easy to move up in the standards of living, but trying to go back to lower standards is not as easy. In fact the idea seems much worse then the actual plunge. The fabrications of a “corrupt government” have been entirely exaggerated by the Diaspora in order to discourage the next generation from ever moving back. The entire idea of investing in Armenia is also labeled with this negative co-notation, which in my opinion is the equivalent of cultural suicide. What is scary is that if you were to define an Armenian as a nationality then theoretically there are only 2 million Armenians left in the world. Anyone outside of the motherland is most likely going to assimilate, now, do not get me wrong, you can slow down the rate of assimilation, but if it is not you’re son then most likely it will be you’re son’s son that will assimilate. Since I do not want to be a pessimist I will state that the situation is not hopeless and inevitable, but certain sacrifices must be made by the Diaspora if they truly want Armenia to progress. Instead the Diaspora in Europe and America resorts to forming technicalities of what an Armenian actually is in order to justify assimilation. They are beginning to make being Armenian the equivalent of being Jewish, which is no different then resorting to cheap parlor tricks. I hope that answered you’re question Sev-mard?

Sevmard, in no way take this as a "offensive" post, but why were you surfing the site?

No, both my parents are Armenian. I am just using that picture as my avatar to stress a point to some members that I was debating against in another thread.

Hello Aitzolpari, and welcome. Try sending a personal message about you’re findings to Arpa. Usually, she is the one that replies to anything relating to language, however, in no way am I stating that other members are incompetent in answering you’re questions.

Well the moderator basically deleted, edited, and or sabotaged every pro-Armenian thread, so, yes, I find that strange. Even if it was screwed up I am sure they could have adequately recovered the data. Yeah, that guy Circ. also has an account on the Stormfront forums. You should read some of the stuff Turks post on Stormfront. They do not get far spreading there anti-Armenian propaganda due to the Armenian members actively countering the propaganda, but it still should be monitored so they do not spread fabrications about Armenians. I have no idea.

Domino, I can not find them on my other hard drives, however, do not lose hope. I sent all you're replys to Phantom and if we can get in touch with him you maybe able to recover you're replys. I sent him a PM, but I think you may know him in RL, so, just giving you a heads up.

I don't understand the logic of looking for famous Armenians when they themselves are hiding from Armenians? If she does not explicitly state she is Armenian, then face it, she is not Armenian.

Another Site I found that talks about minorities in Armenia. http://www.tacentral.com/people.asp?story_no=1 All of these minorities, indeed, are an intricate part of Armenia in every respect. I hope we can keep the rich cultural and historic diversity from fading away. It is strange how all the minorities have found Armenia a safe haven, which leads me to assume Armenia has been a safe haven for non-Armenians as much as it has been for Armenians.

List of minorites in Armenia. PDF file http://www.osce.org/documents/oy/2002/01/148_en.pdf It says there are Armenian of Polish and German descent living in Armenia due German colonies? Is this true?

Thanks, ArmenSarg, but I was not trying to ridicule Ara, rather, I would like him to be more direct. His entire stance is anti-Armenian Establishment (If there is such a thing), but he does not provide a reason behind his motive or a "vision" in which his readers could also partake in. Also, he seems like a progressive writer, but I do not see any "progression" in what he writes. Basically he blames Armenians for everything and makes Turks look like saints, which is inconsistent and, ultimately, bias. This is the exact reason why the Armenian Diaspora is losing their Armenian spirit and nationalism. It is because of the failure of adults, who continually ridicule the "old ways" as "backwards", that the Diaspora is finding it more convenient to "assimilate". If Ara feels that Armenians are ethnocentric, chauvinistic, and ignorant then by all means why does he remain Armenian? What is about being Armenian that even keeps the most cultural devoid Armenian from assimilating? If indeed some individuals on the forum feel that attaining citizenship in another country signals the decline of the Diaspora then why do they continually post on Armenian forums if "everything is going to shit" as the Armenian pirate once stated? If they do not express their pessimistic views on here then it is Armenian Cafe, if not there it is at the Armenian Club, but nevertheless, the most culturally devoid and pessimistic Armenian still wants to remain Armenian even though she feels it may be more socially prudent to "assimilate". This is partially the reason why I am such hardliner on Armenians that ignore the disastrous effects of intermarriages on an ethnicity. These are the same people that have told me, numerous times, that "yeah, I swore off Armenians", but yet after a few years, when they witness the effects of "assimilation" on their children, they all of sudden flock to Armenian communities in search of a Armenian husband or wife for their children. Either, Ara is a disgruntled Armenian or a pessimistic one, regardless of which one he is, I find that most of the time he provides no "vision" for his readers. What does he want Armenians to do? Does he want Armenians to move back to Armenia? Does he want Armenians to donate more funds to Armenian institutions and Funds? Does he want the Diaspora to be more organized? Does he want Armenian institutions to be more liberal or, maybe, more Conservative? The title, “As I see it”, implies that he is trying to formulate a vision for his people, but his vision is very hard to envision when everything he talks about is in bits and pieces. What does he see? My stance on the Armenian Diaspora is basically that I feel they are joke. In fact I feel that my entire existence as Armenian-American is a cruel joke in that I live in country that funds Armenia's geopolitical rivals. My tax dollars goes towards providing Turkey, Israel, and Azerbaijan the tools necessary further wipe my people from the face of earth and, ultimately, erase their names from history. The only way the Armenia and Armenians will survive is if they get their heads out of their asses and do something instead of using the excuse of "yeah, let me get educated in the west and invest my resources in Armenia" because, frankly, even this is not happening. How many more doctors, lawyers, dentists, and politicians does the Diaspora need? What good did these diplomas do during the genocide? Did the diplomas stop the Turkish scimitar? Are these diplomas providing for the welfare of Armenia? Yes, I go to a university, but in no way does my “degree” amount to happiness, wholeness, and most important a future. All a degree provides is the ability to function in a society that deems a degree a necessity for progression, but in no way will it guarantee an utopist life. I will still have to work a nine’ to five’ job for 30 years, while paying a mortgage, and will, ultimately, die with debt passed on to the next generation. That is the bleak existence I find myself in. The Diaspora continually complains about the corruption in Armenia and because it is corrupt we should not move back, but yet at the same time they want us, the next generation, to remain Armenian when in fact the statehood of our nation is in question. Our Armenian elders want us to remain Armenian, but yet do not want us to move back to Armenia, while at the same time they preach about how we need to “save Armenia”. How can I help Armenia when there is no middle-class? For how many more years am I going to bankroll relatives in Armenia? What is going to happen to Armenia when there remain no Armenians? Are my degrees, certifications, and accreditations going to magically repopulate Armenia? No and furthermore, none of my desires for my nation are going to be fulfilled by protesting from across the Atlantic. Armenians want the Turkish government to give their ancestral land back, but why should Turkey take them seriously when in a matter of years they can just stroll in and annex what remains of Armenia? They shouldn’t and any self respecting government will not take the Diaspora seriously if they themselves are not willing to live in Armenia. If indeed we do not want our ancestral lands back and our contempt in living in west why continue the sham known as the Armenian Diaspora? What is the point of me going to picket the oppression of my people when in fact no Armenian will ever move back to Armenia? There is point and we might as well just give what we have to neighboring countries in order to cut losses short. Basically, Armenians want the convenience of living in a more stable society, but also, want to push for national agendas, while at the same time remaining Armenian. What good is having Armenian schools, communities, and culture in foreign lands when there is no Armenian nation? There is no benefit and continually stagnates the development of Armenia. I am facing reality as it is and am offering my “vision”, which basically is if the Diaspora does not come to a consensus vision regarding the future of Armenia then frankly there will be no Armenian nation in the future. If Armenians want to adopt the Zionism (Live in foreign lands, but support national interest of you’re homeland) as their political vision then by all means they have my blessing, but do not just sit around and expect things to positively progress for the Armenian Diaspora, nation, and culture because, frankly, it will not progress until a “vision” is put into motion. However, in no way am I stating that I am not a victim of this ridiculous Armenian ideology of “doing nothing”, but yet “expecting everything”, because frankly I am victim of what I preach. In closing, Armenians need to understand that strengthening the power of the Diaspora will not lead to a strong Armenia. Armenians living outside Armenia are in no way “benefiting” Armenia and, like I pointed out, the tax dollars of Armenian-Americans are going towards marginalizing the geopolitical power of Armenia on the world stage. Armenians need direction and more importantly a vision. Where does our leadership see Armenians and Armenia in the next 50 years? If they honestly think that a Diaspora will exist in the next 50 years they are full of it.

Interesting Read http://gecko.gc.maricopa.edu/clubs/russian...a/Grigorian.htm

Georgia halts construction on pipeline July 24, 2004 TBILISI, Georgia -- Environmental authorities have halted construction on a section of the Baku-Ceyhan pipeline seen as a key to reducing Western dependence on Middle East oil, officials said Friday. Tamar Pirveli, a spokeswoman for the Ministry of Environmental Protection, said construction was stopped because British Petroleum, which heads the consortium building the pipeline, had not submitted paperwork guaranteeing specific environmental protections for a pipeline section passing close to the Borzhomi Gorge. The gorge, 90 miles west of Tbilisi, is famed for its mineral springs and spas. Its bottled water is one of Georgia's most widely known exports. Pirveli said the ministry expected BP to submit the necessary documents within two weeks. Rusudan Medzmariasvhili, a BP representative in Tbilisi, said the company was confident the issue would be settled soon. "This delay won't set us back," he said. The $3.6-billion, 1,100-mile pipeline runs from Baku, Azerbaijan, to the Turkish port of Ceyhan, where oil from Azerbaijan's Caspian Sea fields is to be loaded onto tankers for Western markets. It is set to begin operation next year.