Vigil

Thank you Arpa for your explaination. I still do not understand what compelled them to destroy the monuments and build over them? What was the reasoning behind it? Does anyone know? Would be a good new thread, so, lets not derail this one, well let us not derail this one anymore.

Sasun, sorry I may have confused you. I consider the ma "minorty", but I do not think they deserve any attention as opposed to the other minorities because the "other ones" are a more intricute part of our country.

I started the thread. Ed, you are right and I agree, but I was not trying to "bash" anyone, rather, I am just letting it known that I do not consider a certain group a minority because of the fact that they have a flavor for every day of the week. Anyways, I do not want to further derail the thread so let us just focus on the subject matter, sorry.

Arpa, my statement was not made towards you. Furthermore, I would love to hear your elaboration, thanks. Lastly, Sasun, I do not consider the Yevries a minority and or anything worth preserving.

http://www.mandel.org/gfx/pork.jpg

Arpa, they are their own source. Anyways, since this is my thread I would appreciate it if you do not post anything about yevries, thanks in advance.

I do not "regurgitate" anything, instead, I am countering the disastrous effect of ideas like how "race" does not matter, when in fact it does. Listen, Stormig, being "white" is more socially accepted as opposed to being "black". Being "black" already makes you a minority and, eventually, you develop a certain outlook on life that is much different then that of a "white" man or woman. When you are "white" you are not minority and rather are the majority, well except recently, but overall, the "western" world is "white". Now, my argument is not that being "black" holds a radically different life, but Armenians share racially similarties with "whites" as opposed to "blacks", which is why a Half Armenian that is part white is socially more tolerable then a Half Armenian that is part black. Your problem is that you seem to think Armenians are non white, when in fact the majority are as white as any white man or woman. However, I would not want to see Armenians all of sudden marrying outside the ethnicity because it increases the chances of assimilation My entire argument is that a black Armenian is not Armenian due to the fact physically he has no resemblence to a Armenian. What is your point? The parents had a choice did they not? See this is the type of stuff you have to think about when ever you make a decision like this. This goes back to my original statement of how every decision has its consequences. Why is it that you feel just because a black Armenian is half Hye, we as Armenians, have to accept them? I DO NOT CONSIDER A HALF BLACK ARMENIAN A ARMENIAN, why are you forcing me to accept them as a full fledged Armenian? It is simple because once I do it makes your decision more socially prudent. Intead of bowing to the will of the majority you are making the majority bow to your will. No, the loss already occured when their parents decide to get married and have kids. Yes, this has everything to do wit hglobalization and the mass media because these are the only forces which influence that brand of thinking. When you see advertising that promotes interracial marriage you automatically feel that it is the "norm". However, I am not going to derail the thread and I have stated my reasons why I disgree. If you have a problem with this then by all means you can go find a "black man" and have as many children as you want, but the bottom line is that they will not be socially accepted by Armenians as opposed to a "white" Armenian. Yeah, Stormig, you are right I am this crazy man with crazy ideas. The question is not if anyone is "crazy about me", but rather, the question is will a African of Armenain descent be accepted by the Armenian community? No, they will not be accepted. No, I do see it in the Armenian population, but their motives are supported partialy by Armenians like yourself that have made it socially prudent to marry outside the ethnicity. Somone like you, who makes it seem like interethnic and interracial marriage is ok, is the reason behind the assimilation. Anyways, I am done with this thread. Stormig, in closing I have nothing against you and or your opinions, but again it seems to me like you are trying to convince yourself that it is ok.

Good for you!

Ara, you have a point there. I have met many Turkish Armenians that are more Turkish than Armenian? Can you elaborate?

Yeah, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. supports environmental groups, but is a hypocrite in my opinion because he uses a private jet to get around. If he truly wants to "save the planet" then he should have no problem catcing a train. In fact, If anyone wants to save the "planet" they should isolate themselves from the modern world because the actions of industrialized nations will always conflict with the needs of the environment. Like I stated earlier, capitalism does not discriminate.

When did I say I was a "hero"? Quit putting words in my mouth. I am as much of a hero as any member that posts on these boards. I respect everyone’s view, so, quit trying to make me out to be some “enemy of the state”. There is no "Armenian" of "black ancestry", get it? Once a person is "black" they are "black" first and foremost. No, Stormig, it is not "Hitleresque". See, "skin color" makes a big difference and I do not understand why you have a hard time understanding this? Again, it seems to me like you are just trying to make up reasons and excuses to justify your decisions. Yeah, I am only getting to that conclusion because you are having a hard to respecting my views. I stated earlier that I can never accept a African of Armenian descent because being “black” automatically places them in another category. Furthermore, your stance supports globalization and assimilation. People like you are just a byproduct of the media and pop culture. I do not need to come here and find the same mundane rhetoric of how "we are all equal". Once differences among people diminish they have no reason to "preserve" their culture. They just adapt to their surrounds and accept assimilation. Furthermore, a "black" Armenian is “black” firs and “Armenian” second. I can use many examples that are close to home, so, quit resorting to possibilities of what can be. Listen, Stormig, a "black" man of Armenian descent might be integrated into the Armenian culture, but to base your argument on the possibility that he may one day "be a hero" is just ridiculous because for every "black hero" their are many more, for a lack of a better term, non heroes. Furthermore, a "white" Armenian will be more tolerated then a "black" Armenian because "Armenians" are semi "white". Now, if you are going to sit here and say "well, I know a black Armenian that is tolerated" I will use examples that are close to home. Let us not turn this debate into a “I have a bigger penis” grudge match. Stormig, you can not "convince" me that a person of "black" skin is Armenian. If you want to accept a African of Armenian descent, you have my blessing, but do not try and force me to do the same.

Your = possessive of 'You'. You're = contraction of 'you are'. So, what? Everyone makes mistakes, now are you going to go make a entire thread about how bad my grammer is as well? Yes, I know I make grammer and or spelling mistakes, but in no way does it "weaken" my argument. This is not a graded essay and the only thing I care about is making sure, you, as a fellow member understands me. I can write essays using big words and perfect grammer, but in no way would it strenghten my argument. Stormig, I told you nicely to quit camping my posts and unlike you I did not insult you. So, do not make it seem like we are these fascist members that are out to recreate the Nazi regime because we are far from it. You are just "mad" that somone like me is creating more "buzz" then you and "your" mundane ideas of "unity". No one needs to come on these boards and learn how we are all "equal" because all that nonsense is a constant part of society. If we "truly are equal" then why do we need to constantly be reminded of this 'equality"? IF we truly are "eqaul", why don't you open the borders to Turkey and grant everyone citizenship? Every channel you flip through, you can see these ideas being forced feed into our thoughs, ideas, and goals. Furthermore, the only reason they are done so is to speed up assimlation. The United States and countries like the United States, want to racially and ethnically homogenize the landscape, so, any idea of "preservation" is threat to national security. STORMIG, YOU WIN! My ideas are ignored by the "mainstream", however, because my ideas are "radical" they get more attention, but in no way are they stupid or any less valid. You are being more fascist then any "Hiteresque" leader has ever been. Why not just marry a Ethopian Jew and get on with "your" life?

What is pretty sad is how you are trying to force and, eventually, justify "your" decisions. Like I stated earlier, people like you are only trying to convince themselves.

Tk, I agree with this statement, however, in no way would I want to promote it, but like I said earlier if you are going to "take the plunge" pick a reasonable partner or else do not force the culture on a child that will never accepted into it.

IF anyone needs to have an "open mind" it should be people like you, who in my opinion, are so caught up in this "one world" concept that you do not realize the very same people which promote this idea are the very ones that benefit from it. Kakachik, wake the hell up man. Me, you, these people we mean nothing. Good and evil are relative terms in that one mans loss is another mans gain. Stop limiting yourself by thinking in cycles, rules, and boxes because all these boundaries will always be broken if any gain will come from it. In a matter of years those very same Jews in Armenia will have successfully connected themselves to the economy and our precious Armenia will be another Zionist piggy bank. Yeah, go ahead call me names and push people like me into boxes, but at the very end I will have the last laugh. Armenians need to realize that there is no honor and loyalty in politics. Everything you do in life revolves around your needs as a human being. If you had to pick between your life and another person, who would you pick? If someone was pointing a gun at you and another man, would you honestly give all you’re dreams and aspirations for the life of another? Maybe you will and maybe you won’t, but at the very end it boils down to survival. Either, you win or you lose, but in the end, it is the winner that lets say for a lack of a better phrase “screws the prom queen”. Quit, buying into these delusional ideas of utopia because IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Kakachik, let me ask you, who do you think is history’s most ruthless, evil, and conniving figure? I am sure you do not know, hell, I do not know, but what I am sure of is that he came up with the phrase "good will always triumph over evil" to trick everyone into thinking that being "evil" is a weakness when in fact being "evil" is a strength. Think about it and you will begin to see the world for what it truly is. In short, you can either become a god among beasts or a god among men.

I have heard of that documentary and in no way do I want to learn about "Jews". If they love Israel so much why the hell don't they move back? There is nothing in Armenia for them. Israel is not in a economic and political crisis, so, they have no reason to leech off other countries. I have no problem with Kurds, Greeks, and the rest of the minorities/citizens of Armenia that may not have Armenian ancestry, but I JUST DO NOT LIKE JEWS LIVING IN ARMENIA. You do not know which one is a Jew and which one is actually a double agent. It would be a different story if they had lived in Armenia for centuries and or had working synagogues there, but they don't, so, they should stop moving to Armenia. Sorry, I CAN NOT TRUST THEM. Please do not post articles relating to them unless it has some connection to the real minorities of Armenia, thanks in advance.

armenianow.com August 6, 2004 The Greek Connection: Descendents (if only a few) of first generation still call Armenia home By Vahan Ishkhanyan ArmeniaNow reporter During Soviet times, Hankavan was home to 120 Greek families, descendents of the six families who founded the village in 1828. The Greeks came to Armenia to work in gold and copper mines. At one time there were about 5,000 Greeks throughout Soviet Armenia. But when the mines closed in the early 20 th century, the Greeks - like the Armenians - turned to cattle breeding. Hankavan: The Greeks call it home In the 1990s almost all the Greeks of Hankavan returned to Greece. Today, after migration and immigration, the Greek community in Hankavan is only about 15 residents. Seventy-nine-year old Apolstle Chakhirov was among the Greek residents who, in 1992, moved back his native country. But, like others, Greece didn't live up to expectations, so he came back to Hankavan just three years later. His family convinced him to give Greece another try. So he moved a second time. And moved back to Armenia a second time, in 2002. He says he has no intention of moving again. "First, I came back because this is my homeland and second, because of my age I couldn't find any job and it was impossible to continue my bee-keeping in Salonica," Apostle says. Like most of the older generation, Apostle's wife and three sisters also weren't satisfied in Greece, and came back to Hankavan. (All the women are Greek citizens, and get pensions of about 200 Euro per month.) Apostle is the unofficial leader of the Greek community. He is also a member of the Armenian Communist Party, a follower of Marxism and Leninism. At the same time he is a spiritual leader of sorts and the manager of Greek Orthodox Church in the village. In the early 20 th century the church had a priest, but he was shot, in 1937 during Stalin's repressions. As soon as Apostle came back from Greece he repaired the inner parts of the church. "I am both communist and believer in God. I like Christ, he was very clever person. But when our priests say that he (Christ) will be back, I don't believe. He is dead and so, can't be back," Apostle says. Apostle, a Marxist, makes candles for the church He puts candles in the church which are made by him from bees-wax from his very own bees. "Priests' candles are false. Things that bees create are created by God," the beekeeper says. Maria, Apostle's 83 year old sister, is the oldest resident of Hankavan. Maria remembers when she was 15, and her father engaged her to an Armenian boy. But she didn't want to marry an Armenian, so her father gave permission to marry a Greek. When her husband died several years ago, her children took her to Greece. "Greece is good, but it is not for me. Armenia is better," she says. She says she will never go to Greece again. Now her children come to see her. Maria lives alone next to sister Natalie's home, who also came back with her husband to the village, leaving her children in Greece. "Greeks in Greece are not like Armenian Greeks, we don't like them," says Natalie. "In Greece we went to Armenian restaurant and our sons were crying under the Armenian music. We will die here in Armenia; we will not go to Greece. But here in Armenia there is nobody who cares about us: neither telephone, nor roads . . ." Before, there was a telephone in the village, but 10 years ago some people cut the wires and took them. Just days ago, Natalie's husband suffered pain all night, but they had no possibility to take him to hospital. The next morning, by chance, Natalie's nephew, who was back from Greece to visit relatives, came to the village and took him to hospital. But as of the next day, none of them had news about Natalie's husband. Two years ago Donara Avgirova's parents persuaded to come back to Hankavan from Greece. Over the course of the two years, both parents died, leaving her alone in the village, where she manages the hardship of poor living conditions. Some have come back from Greece for eternal rest in Armenia She first lived in Yerevan, but now faces the village life of collecting firewood, and trying to find a means to get running water in her house. She says that when she moved to Greece, she too coerced her parents into going. "We took them like birds in a coup," she says. "They wanted to live here." Donara has children in Greece, but says she wants to continue living in Hankavan. "My blood doesn't flow in Greece," she says. "My homeland is Armenia and we got used to that life." Donara, who is in her 50s, says there are several reasons why life for her is more comfortable in Hankavan. For example, she says that it is difficult to establish relations. She says she wants to get married, but that in Greece, the men "who only want to take you to bed right away." Language is also an obstacle for her in Greece, because her family speaks a different dialect among themselves here, than in her native community in Greece. Spiridon Kerasov's mother has returned to Hankavan, but later than she might have wished. Natalie came back after moving to Greece. "Twelve years ago my four brothers and I went back to Greece and took mother with us," Spiridon says. "Mother asked us to let her stay in the village, but we didn't allow it, saying that she is an old woman and can't stay alone. "We promised to bring her remains back to Hankavan if something should happen to her in Greece." In 1998, six years after leaving Hankavan, the mother died. Two weeks ago Spiridon brought his mother's ashes back to be buried in Armenian soil. An Armenian priest conducted the interment. In Greece, the family had rented a grave for their mother, which had to be vacated after six years. It was after that time that the sons remembered their mother's request. Now she lies in a free grave under her portrait, and next to Spiridon's father. In an Armenian village the Greeks call home. Spiridon keeps his house in Hankavan and doesn't want to sell it, because prices are too low. At the same time, he isn't eager to move back to Armenia. Unlike his compatriot Donara, Spiridon isn't ready to make a permanent home here. Yes, this is our country, but this is not the right way to live," he says. "Who knows? Maybe one day it will be better."

Ara, for the record, I never "called you names", but rather I want you to be more direct so that we can understand you're ideas and suggestions. However, I do not agree with most of you're views, but in no way have I ever insulted you.

Groul, I respect you and you're views, but I will never accept a "black Armenian" as an Armenian. I am not a "colorful" thinker, which means I do not buy into this "one world" and "one human race" utopian fantasies. Learn from the mistakes European countries have made. I do not like the fact that Armenians are having interracial and interethnic marriages, but if you are going to take the plunge pick a reasonable candidate. Groul, you are making being Armenian the equivalent of being Jewish. If you all are really desperate why not just import Africans like Israel? I hate getting into this topic because it has been discussed on all levels, but be warned, you can not close this door once it is open. Yeah, I heard of this lady, but every time I think of her it makes me puke. There are many Armenian orphans and yet she adopted a "African"? These are the flat out stupid decisions Armenians make that really makes me question our future. No, once you let Jews into Armenia in the next few years they willconnect themselves to the economy and once this is done Armenia's national interest become second to those of Israel. For the record I will never ever consider a half Jew a Armenian, sorry, but by their own definition of what a Jew is, a half Armenian, is a Jew. I see no reason why they are in Armenia when they should go back to Israel. Now, this Jewish community wants us to give them property based on fabrications that they use to have property in Armenia during the middle ages. Sorry, I have these views and in no way am I "prejudice", "racist", and or "Anti-Semitic" because if I was I would base my assumptions on biological differences, which I am not.

Yes, exactly the "minority" complex has to go. Sorry, Nakharar, I was not implying that you were calling me a "racist", but when ever anything about "race" is mentioned a couple Southern Baptists start complaining.

(Laugh) Sorry, I sound like a Neo-Nazi or something. In general I wouldn't consider a "black man" and or an Armenian Jew an Armenian. Now, you can argue with me and or try to convince that my ideas are racist, but I know better. I am not saying that biologically being "black" holds draw backs, but socially it does. Furthermore, Armenians never were and never will be "black", so, we need start getting rid of this slave mentality that the meida keeps selling to youngsters.

I agree

Agree Agree Agree I Disagree because I would never consider a half Armenian an Armenian unless the other half is semi white. If you are half black and or Asian, you will never be considered Armenian by my standards, well, Asian is not as bad, but still. Furthermore, I would never ever consider a half Turk/Armenian an Armenian. At least if you are going to make the plunge marry someone that will hinder you're rank on the social stage. However, in no way would pick a Madonna Kabala whore over a "Semite" looking Armenian.

Gamavor, I don't want to derail the thread by getting in the politics of the "Dashnaks" and their role in Armenain history.

Dam, "Tashnags"...jk...most Dashnaks have that beard, however, only Dasknaks grow beards. Yeah, that is strange phenomenon and what is even stranger is that I find that only among Armenians.