Halacoglu Discuss?

[DominO123]

Turkish And Armenian Historians To Discuss Armenian Issue

 

Anadolu Agency: 12/10/2003

 

ANKARA - Armenian allegations will be discussed on official science platform.

 

Turkish History Institution (TTK) Chairman Prof. Dr. Yusuf Halacoglu told the A.A correspondent on Wednesday that they would come together with Armenians under the auspices of Vienna University in 2004 to discuss the year 1915.

 

Stating that TTK Armenian Desk Chairman Prof. Dr. Hikmet Ozdemir and he would attend the meeting, Halacoglu said, ''Vienna University also asked Chairmanship of Academy of Sciences from Armenia if they could take part in such a meeting. They said they accepted to attend in principle, but they did not yet inform us who would attend the discussions. After they inform us, the issue will be officialized.''

 

''Then, we will reciprocally send each other archive documents and source documents. We will examine these documents and then come together in Vienna to hold a discussion under the auspices of Vienna University.''

 

Halacoglu said the meeting could be hold in 2004 in a day determined by the sides after the answer of the Armenian side became clear.

 

Noting that they would discuss Armenian issue in a closed meeting by mutually submitting documents, Halacoglu said, ''the main subject of this discussion is the year 1915, the year Armenians alleged that they were exposed to genocide. In fact, this meeting can be considered a period of revealing all the cards in hand. We will discuss the issue mutually for the first time with this meeting.''

 

Halacoglu said that the content of the meeting would later be made public with a statement by Vienna University.

 

Underlining that the Armenians refrained from discussing the issue so far, Halacoglu said, ''if we hold this meeting, Armenians and Turks will come together and discuss the past for the first time in history. I think it will be a very interesting discussion.''

 

(EÖ-AÖ) 10.12.2003

 

 

 

http://www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=15927

 

 

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Someone please wake me, tell me I am dreaming. hehehe, Halacoglu that could not make the difference between a donkey and his mouth(maybe there isen't a difference afterall) want to discuss about the subject.

 

Can someone pay me a trip for Vienna.

 

http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showt...45&hl=halacoglu

 

Better, can the Chairmanship of Academy of Sciences from Armenia grant me the permission to go there as part of their team, I want to see this Uncle Halacoglu.

[THOTH]

So whats your take on this Domino - just some propaganda ploy? Who represents the Armenian "side"? Is there really anything to this?

 

And yeah - we should send you ove there to argue the case...i'm all for that!

[Nikephoros_Phokas]

Are these kinds of stunts done to get favorable press coverage, to demonstrate they are willing to enter a dialogue(a very dishonest dialogue), so their position seems less implacable and hostile?

[DominO123]

Answering Halacoglu.

 

What Is"Relocation"? Does It Mean"Genocide"?

 

The Arabic originated word "tehcir" means "emigration / immigration", it definitely not means "deportation" or "exile". Hence the law commonly known as the "Tehcir Law" is the same as "Temporary Law On The Military Measures To Be Taken For Those Who Resist The Governmental Acts And Supplementation's." The word used to explain the implementation in line with this law is "tenkil" in the Ottoman language and means "transport- not the equivalent of "deportation", "exile" or "proscription" in Latin originated languages.

 

OK, immigration you want to call it? Call it that way. Lets replace the word deportation for the word immigration in the translations.

 

Lets see what the military tribunal say about it.

 

"Mr. Abdulahad Nuri who was sent to Aleppo [stated that] the immigration meant annihilation, [adding] 'I have contacted Mr. Talat and received personally the orders of annihilation'."

 

Or what about Halil admition that the word "immigration" was a cipher code to mean extermination?

 

 

The relocation, which was started with the orders of Talaat *****, and approved by the Government and the Parliament as a measure against the Armenian riots and massacres, which had arisen in a number of places in the Country - pre - dominantly in Van province, was only implemented only in the regions in which such riots and massacres affected the security of the fronts directly. The first area was Erzurum, Van and Bitlis Vicinities which formed the rear part of the Caucasian - Iran Front; and the second was Mersin - Iskenderun Region which formed the rear part of the Sina Front. In both of these regions, Armenians had collaborated with the enemy and involved in activities to facilitate the enemy's invasion.

 

Later, the scope of the immigration was widened in order to include the Armenians in the other provinces, who rioted, collaborated with the enemy and screened the activities of Armenian Gangs. Although the Catholic and Protestant Armenians were excluded from immigration at the beginning, later those whose harmful activities were observed, were also relocated.

 

OH! I see, women, children, elderly were all collaborating with the enemy. From the pictures taken from German photographs of the colons of refugies sent to starve, the large majority were only women, children, erderly, because the men were already separated from the rest. So if in fact the "immigration" was for security purpouses, why still having relocated the rest of the population? Why having blocked food supply from relief organizations? Why blocking food supply from the Germans Ottoman own allies?

 

 

Since 1915, numerous papers, reports, books, etc. were written and published about the immigration implementation. The Armenians, by using false documents have succeeded to deceit the World for a long time. The rumor about Armenian holocaust (!) which expressed at first as three hundred thousand and later increased to three million has no basis at all.

 

 

300,000? 3 million? Care to provide any sources for your lies and forgeries?

 

Here some "documents" for you. (Phantom, I am taking your own wording here if you don't mind)

 

Quoting from the German official Secret report, "Volkswirtschaftliche Studien in der Türkey"

 

"by February 1916, 1.5 million Armenians were destroyed ... the first step toward the recovery of the economic predominance in Turkey ... there was joy in the government circles that the long-desired opportunity finally presented itself...”

 

Source: A.A. Türkei, 134/35, A18613, pp. 1,2,3,4 "Volkswirtschaftliche Studien in der Türkey"

 

Various other Germans also indicated that more than a million Armenians perished, the majority of those numbers varied between 1.2-1.5 million. Thus, the number 1.5 million, representing the numbers of victims, originated from the Germans and not the Armenians.

 

The German Interim Ambassador to Turkey, Radowitz, reported that 1.5 million Armenians died, while the total number of Armenians he considered to be about 1,925,000.

 

Source: A.A. Türkei 183/44. A27493, October 4, 1916 report

 

Erzberger, a German parliamentarian, Foreign Office Intelligence Director, and later Cabinet minister puts the numbers of Armenian victims to be 1.5 million in his report.

 

Source: A.A. Türkei 183/42, A13959, May 27, 1916 report

 

German major Endres, serving in the Turkish army made the following statement:

 

"1.2 million Armenians perished in Turkey during the war."

 

Die Türkei. Munich: C.H. Beck, 1918, p. 161.

 

Boghos Nubar, the head of the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace conference, wrote in The Times of London in 30 Jan., 1919, that “over a million out of a total Armenian population… have lost their lives in and through the war.” (Boghos Nubar also alleged that Armenians have been the victims because of their support for the allies; here again, the political motivation was clear: trying to show the allies that they had a responsibility for the Armenian tragedy and wishing that the allies would, out of feelings of guilt, give an Armenian state as a reward, but denialists such as McCarthy see this as Armenian admission of some sort of complicity with the allies, one that would supposedly justify the total destruction of an entire people.) But each time there was a question of a report concluding there weren't enough Armenians left to form a state, the number of victims by Armenian delegations would decrease. The King-Crane report (published in August 28, 1919) also gives approximately the same numbers as Boghos Nubar.

 

"In order to give the Armenians the benefit of their entire losses in Turkey during the war, one million may be added to the numbers of Armenians according to each plan."

 

The official statistics compiled, for the period between 1915 and the end of 1917 (or the beginning of 1918 to mid-1918), are 800,000 (this number represents the number of those killed during the deportation.). This number comes directly from Djemal's bureau’s compilation statistics. The results have been published in the official Ottoman gazette. Takvimi Vekâyi No. 3909, July 21, 1920, pp. 3, 4

 

"… during the wartime deportations some 800,000 Armenians were killed."

 

It is the result of a commission formed by the interior minister Mustafa Arif. They relied on war reports and statistics, and it took them many months of study (this proves that these numbers are not just vague estimations), and finally in March 14, 1919, the results were made public by Djemal.

 

This number has been mentioned in Rauf Orbay's own memoirs. (It represents, those that were “massacred” during the deportation, and like Djemal's war statistics does not include the ones that perished by starvation and diseases and the Armenian men that were serving in the Ottoman army who were eventually disarmed and killed en masse.)

 

"At that moment he told me, 'In America, France, and Britain, you have murders and the like crimes committed, yet no nation[?] is held accountable. Only Turks are held responsible for the massacre of 800,000 of their own.' He, too, found the Armenian massacres abhorrent." (Orbay reporting a conversation he had with Atatürk.)

 

Rauf Orbay'ın Hatıraları (Memoirs of Rauf Orbay), Vol. 3, 1962, p. 179

 

Rauf Orbay is a critical source since he was very highly ranked as a Lieutenant Colonel and well-regarded as one of the closest friends of Ataturk and one of the primary fighters and commanders during the Turkish War of Liberation, also being in charge of the navy as its secretary. He was also the one that signed the Mondros Treaty and one of the initiators of the Lausanne Treaty as the first prime minister of Turkey. As has been reported by the specialist Taner Akçam, these numbers was also announced many times by Ataturk himself, and in fact it was he who reported them to the British. The number of victims of 1.2 million presented during the Turkish after war tribunal probably was an addition to this number, the number of those that perished. Ironically Orbay also participated in the Armenian genocide, and also was one of those responsible for the destruction of documents that could have incriminated him. In a weekly summary of intelligence report, dated 4 March 1920, the British Military Intelligence Bureau reported:

 

"… the disappearance of documents incriminating... Itti-hadist." Talking of Rauf: "he urged the destruction of incriminating documents. It is understood that Rauf had already arranged the disappearance of documentary material implicating himself and Enver Pasa."

 

FO371/5166/E1782, Reports 575, 592

 

However, after the denial started and, following the dissolution of the military tribunal, the manipulation of these numbers also appeared important. It was evident that the Turkish authorities were starting to try to hide these numbers. Firstly in 1928, the Turkish military published a book (published by Lt. Col. Nihat) that presented the numbers of casualties during the war. Now these were no longer the numbers of those massacred and killed during the deportation as the Ottoman reports had concluded but the number of the Armenians that perished. "800,000 Armenians and 200,000 Greeks died as a result of deportations or died in labour brigades." From then on, it was evident that the Turkish government was trying to under-evaluate the numbers of Armenian victims, not only by taking the numbers that represented only those killed (or massacred) during the deportation and presenting them as the total of Armenians that perished but also without adding the Armenians that had perished and been killed after the statistics had been taken (outside Ottoman Armenia and during the Turkish War of Liberation). The Turkish historian, Bayur, presenting this manipulation, concluded, "According to our official sources, these numbers are correct" (in his well-known work, Türk Inkilabi Tarihi, Volume III, Section IV, page 787).

 

Since then, the Turkish government has done everything to decrease the number of victims when their previous numbers were matched by the official German statistics that, as Ottoman allies, had certainly made use of also the Ottomans' own references. If we add to this the Ottoman statistics of 800,000 killed to the number of Armenians that perished, we find from the Ottomans' own official sources that probably more than a million Armenians had perished. (Numbers supported by the Turkish historian, Prof. Fikret Adanır, place the number of Armenian victims as “…more than a million,” in his essay “Die Türkei vor den Toren Europas.”)

 

In fact, although English and French authorities have extensively studied the Ottoman archives during their occupation in Istanbul have failed to find even a single document hinting about such holocaust.

 

 

This is a lie without any valid ground. Lets see if English and French authorities did rea;;y extensivelt studied the Ottoman archive during their "occupation."

 

Trabzon Verdict, 22 May 1919,

 

Published on August 6, 1919 in "Takvimi Vekâyi" No. 3616, p.1

 

"The massacre and destruction (taktil ve ifna) of the Armenians was executed through secret orders by men who ostensibly had the assignment to implement the law of deportation" (zahiren tehcir kanununu tatbik etmek).

 

Secret orders! What happened to them? I shall show it... lets bring more references or what you call, "documents."

 

Yozgat Verdict, 8 April 1919,

 

Published on August 7, 1919 in "Takvimi Vekâyi" No. 3617, p.2

 

" The documents, personally signed by the defendants, confirm the fact that the gendarmes escorted the deportee convoys for purpose of massacre. There can be no doubt and hesitation about this" (maksadi ... taktili oldugundan süphe ve tereddüt birakmadigindan). "

 

Interesting is it not? Those archives were used during the martial court, signed by those criminals. Were the allies able to have those archives to study them? Lets see more.

 

Now lets clarify by bringing evidences against your allegations that the allies studied the said Ottoman archives.

 

On 10 February 1919, British High Commissioner, Admiral Calthorpe sent to London reports from the British intelligentsia agency, from where the Turkish Public security official Mr. Aziz in charge of Interior Ministry's wartime archives declares:

 

"Just before the Armistice, officials had been going to the archives department at night and making clean sweep of most of the documents."

 

British Foreign Office Archives. FO371/4172/31307, folio 385.

 

Uncle Halacoglu, how can the allies study archives from where the documents they want to study were just taken away?

 

 

Tunaya, T.Z. "Türkiyede siyasal partiler, Vol. 2, 2nd ed. Istanbul : Hürriyet Vakfi publications. p. 96, n.16. Tunaya relying on Ittihad's Secretary-General Midhat's testimony write:

 

" The documents of Ittihad party were crammed into a suitcase by Dr. Behaeddin Sakir after they had been removed from the party headquarters by Dr. Nazim. The suicase was taken to home of attorney Ramiz, Sakir's brother-in-law."

 

Halacoglu, your Turkish sources show us that the documents were just taken away, and that the allies were never able to study them. If the Ottoman did not commit a genocide, why all those precotions to destroy and take away those documents?

 

Here more about those specic documents of the Ittihad party.

 

The Turkish press reported in December 1918("Aksam," 12 Dec. 1918; "Tasviri Efkâr," 13 Dec. 1918) that when the police raided the home of Ramiz, they found documents that were still intact, they handed these documents to the Martial-court, then after the dissolution of the martial-court the documents left were never handed to the British like promessed, Mr. Aziz contrary to the promises he made never handed these documents to the British that were waiting them to charge the prisoners of Malta, because a good portion of them were already proven guilty and handed to the Brits, by the Turkish after war tribunal.

 

 

Atay, F.R. "Çankaya." Istanbul: Sena. pp. 127-128, Djemal's bureau's Deputy director state that before Djemal flight from Istanbul:

 

"...some of his files [containing] official documents were left in the custody of Syfi, one of his men, who out of fear burned them."

 

Fear? Why this fear? What were they fearing? Since from your point of view there was no genocide, no extermination.

 

 

Aydemir, S.S. "Makedonyadan Ortaasyaya Enver Pasa." Vol. 3, 1914-1922.

Istanbul: Remzi. p. 493

 

"Before the flight of the top Ittihadist leaders, Talat Pasa stopped by at the waterfront residence of one of his friends on the shore of Arnavudköy, depositing there suitcase of documents. It is said that the documents were burned in the basement's furnace. Indeed ... the documents and other papers of Ittihad's Central Committee are nowhere to be found."

 

Nowhere to be found? How can you then claim that the Ottoman archives prove there was no genocide, when the documents in question are nowhere to be found. Where are those documents? Why all those precotions? Was the Ottoman not innocent afterall?

 

Telegram ordering the destruction of documents, from the Turkish Interior Minister to the provincial governor at Ayintab, was intercepted by the General Headquarters of the British Army's Egyptian Expeditionary force on 24 January 1919.

 

"Burn orginals of official telegrams since mobilisation on files of district."

 

FO371/4174/15450

 

 

Why all those orders to destroy the documents? Halacoglu did you not said that they studied the documents? Which documents are you talking about? There was no document left to be studied.

 

On 17 June 1919 the Turkish foreign Minister Safa protested to the British High Commisioner because of their intrusion on trying to examine few documents that were left, and in the same time said that, British intrusion will not give much success, because the Diyarbekir-based Director of Telegraphic Service sent a circular telegram ordering to destroy these documents. Admiral Calthrope reported to London after this message:

 

"attention to the tenor of this note which treats as a mere matter of office routine such an important matter as the proposed destruction of documents relating to the period of deportations, massacres, and the activities of the Turkish authorities during the war."

 

FO371/4174/102551

 

Halacoglu, why destroying those documents about the "immigration" of the Armenians. Would an innocent empire not keep documents which would innocent them from the accusations?

 

 

The British realising the destruction of the documents in a weekly summary of intelligence report, dated 4 March 1920, declared from the British Military Intelligence Bureau:

 

"the disappearance of documents incriminating ... Ittihadist." Talking of Rauf: "he urged the destruction of incriminating documents. It is understood that Rauf had already arranged the disappearance of documentary material implicating himself and Enver Pasa."

 

FO371/5166/E1782, Reports 575, 592

 

Karay was in 1919 the General Director of Telegraphic Service in Turkey, he wrote that Mehmet Emin his predecessor, has sent orders to all principal telegraph centers in the country, directing them:

 

"destroy all official papers, the orginals and copies of all telegrams."

 

Karay, R.H. Minelbab lelmihrab, Istanbul: Inkilâp and Aka, p. 221

 

Why? Why? Why?

 

 

Post minister Hüseyin Hasim admitted ordering in 3 June 1919:

 

"all military telegrams burned on orders from the War Office."

 

"Takimi Vekayi." No. 3573, 12 June 1919

 

From your own Turkish documents Halacoglu, your government documents are forged, because the documents they present to deny the Armenian genocide should have been destroyed like those sources indicate. If in fact they are destroyed, then the documents your government present are "reconstitutions" and more probably "forged" invalide in court of law.

 

 

Had the Ottoman State intended to make genocide on Armenians; could not they realize such an act at the places where the Armenians live? Why would it be necessary "to immigrate" them for such an intention? Why did they undertake the significant fiscal and material costs of their security, safety, health and food of the immigrating Armenians? During this immigration and re-settlement process which lasted approximately 1,5 year from May 1915 until October 1916, why would the central and local administrations take measures to ensure the lives and properties of Armenians in spite of the difficult war circumstances? In addition, would it be necessary to accept great administrative, military and financial burden -as if opening a new front- to protect and secure these people?

 

Had the German Reich intended to make genocide on Jews; could not they realize such an act at the places where the Jews live? Why would it be necessary "to immigrate" them for such an intention? Why did they undertake the significant fiscal and material costs of their security, safety, health and food of the immigrating Jews? During this immigration and re-settlement process which lasted approximately 4 year from 1941 until 1945, why would the central and local administrations take measures to ensure the lives and properties of Jews in spite of the difficult war circumstances? In addition, would it be necessary to accept great administrative, military and financial burden -as if opening a new front- to protect and secure these people?

 

Halacoglu, you tell us that necessary food were supplied etc... in your works you provide evidences from Ottoman said archives... I provided evidences that your Ottoman said archives could not exist, because from your own sources they have been destroyed... so they are reconstituated, forged documents that have no any value in court of law. Because of this fact, you are forced to use German archives which are the closest that one can get to the ottoman, using those documents one find out that in fact there was a genocide

 

 

The answers to these questions shall be sufficient to understand the real intention of the Ottoman State. Also there is no logical explanation that why the Ottoman State suddenly changed its policy towards a community which had always been called as "millet-i sadika" (loyal people) due to their being really faithful to the Government. Hence the party whose attitude had changed was not the Ottoman Government, but the Armenians who were deceived by the independence promises of Russia and the Entente States.

 

Halacoglu,

 

“[…] It was not enough to arrest and imprison the well-known and respected members of the Armenian community or exile them to remote areas; to create fear and terror among the whole nation. No, it was not enough, for the whole of Cilicia and Armenia had to be turned into one vast graveyard.[…] We wished to convince you [CUP] of the consequences of ill-fated policy you wished to pursue. We begged you not to bring about your downfall by starting hostilities with Russia. We implored you not to be swayed by German influence and not to take up arms against the Triple Entente, two of whose members, England and France, have always been loyal allies who have repeatedly saved the state from danger.[…] You behaved with ingratitude and turning your upon your former allies you threw yourself into the arms of Germany whose power turned your head. And, by abandoning the policy of neutrality which you had so far been pursuing you dragged the Ottoman state to destruction. The country, already poor, was totally ruined. You prepared the ground for serious disorders and the bloody defeats that violated the borders of Armenia. You destroyed and annihilated innumerable young lives. Today, incapable of saving your country, you are desperately fighting your last battle and are treacherously assaulting the unfortunate, unarmed and helpless Armenian nation. It is your own policy that has forced the Armenians to take up weapons and form bands in order to protect their communities from systematic extermination. You are reaping what you have sown. The press organ of the Armenian Revolutionary committee, independent of the Party, on its own responsibility, accuses you – those members of the government and of the Society of Union and Progress involved in these incidents – of having inflicted atrocities and murders on the Armenian nation and, likewise, of having committed crimes against the Ottoman state, and declares that it holds you morally and legally responsible. Signed: Dashnaktsutiun”

 

Uras, Esat, “The Armenians in History and the Armenian Question, Istanbul: Documentary Publications, 1988. pp. 874-77

 

Why did the Ottoman invade Russian Armenia? Read what is the official Dashnaktsutiun announcement, The Ottoman raided the bureaus of Armenian revolutionary organizations, have they found any documents proving what you allege? Where is the intention from the part of the Armenians you are talking about? The evidences I bring is from uras a known anti-Armenian forger. " that violated the borders of Armenia" This border is Russian Armenia, they even don't include Ottoman Armenia in what they call Armenia.

 

In conclusion, it can be said that the Armenian Immigration which was a necessary measure to ensure the State Security and Safety is among one of the most successful transportation and re-settlement processes; and has no intention whatsoever to annihilate Armenians.

 

yes! It was as successful as a genocide can get. This I give credit to the Ottoman for this exmplary genocide. Just a last note, you refered first.

 

"Temporary Law On The Military Measures To Be Taken For Those Who Resist The Governmental Acts And Supplementation's."

 

If it is temprary, why then the Armenians were forbidden to return after the war, and why their properties were distributed to others?

Edited December 15, 2003 by Fadix

[DominO123]

So whats your take on this Domino - just some propaganda ploy? Who represents the Armenian "side"? Is there really anything to this?

 

And yeah - we should send you ove there to argue the case...i'm all for that!

OK! What about collecting funds to send me there.

[yalpa]

Domino,

 

Why do you care so much about Halacoglu anyway? His arguments are easily refutable. Winning against him would neither amount to much nor accomplish anything other than self-gratification. But, then, you may be right in that every effort of intentional misinformation must be eccountered and dealt with.

 

Anyways, I do not know how Halacoğlu reaches the conclusion that "tenkil" in the Ottoman language does not mean exile, but all the Ottoman dictionaries I have say that it means to kick someone out, to move someone to a different location as a punishment, and even to annihilate the enemy.

[phantom]

Domino,

 

Why do you care so much about Halacoglu anyway? His arguments are easily refutable. Winning against him would neither amount to much nor accomplish anything other than self-gratification. But, then, you may be right in that every effort of intentional misinformation must be eccountered and dealt with.

 

Anyways, I do not know how Halacoğlu reaches the conclusion that "tenkil" in the Ottoman language does not mean exile, but all the Ottoman dictionaries I have say that it means to kick someone out, to move someone to a different location as a punishment, and even to annihilate the enemy.

Yalpa,

 

Isn't Halacoglu Turkey's current mouthpiece? Can't his arguments be attributed to the official Turkish government position regarding the Genocide? And if his arguments can be so easily refuted, then doesn't that suggest that the official Turkish government arguments aren't worth a horsefly? I think this is why Domino is currently preoccupied with Halacoglu.

[DominO123]

yalpa, you may be right, if I were to find Halacoglu from a work he would have writen, I won't take him seriously, but on the other hand, when you have McCarthy which refer the individual in his works and in conferences talk about the same individual as someone having done extensive researchs and is considered a valuable researcher, I take such individual seriously, 2 years ago he talked about researchs he has undertaken that would allegedly prove that less than 90,000 Armenians died, I did everything to trace the said work he said he would publish and had absolutly no results. My present answer to him is like a vengence from my part. If he can't present the documents he say he will provide, I am then forced to bring his arguments myself and answer them.

 

And don't forget that this individual is supposed to be the replacement that would lead the denialists.

 

BTW, I have in my possession the work I was talking about, with the original Ottoman Turkish versions of the translations, I will scan them, if you are interested I could email it to you.

 

Oh and, I have answered your other post(if we could talk about answering ) int eh trial section.

 

A last note, I hope you won't believe that I have all writen the reply to Halacoglu, most of it is a copy past from already posted materials.

[DominO123]

Phantom, I warn you to not take Ulku Eryaman seriously(the one that registered under soykirkur alias you know where), he is the author of a denialist website, a chicken that emailed me in the past to try his forgeries. He defamed Egoyan by attributing him speaches he never gave.

 

Just give him a friendly reminder that he is always welcome to email me again anytime and dare to present his trashes again.

[yalpa]

Domino,

 

I would appreciate it very much if you could send me those original texts about the tribunal. I am assuming that you have my e-mail. Thanks a lot. You saved me from going through some unnecessary work.

 

Phantom,

 

I agree with you. I think it is worth a try. However, I still have some reservations. First of all, discussions with people like Halacoğlu cannot be done using the normal method of show me your evidence, here is my evidence, and according to the rules of logic or anything like it I am right. He cannot be convinced, and nobody in his camp can be convinced. For they are already well convinced. They operate according to very different rules or perhaps laws. Domino can win against him everytime he gets into a discussion with him, but at the same time will lose every discussion he has with him. For neither Halacoglu nor his likes will change their minds. And, Domino or anyone like him will waste their energy, when the same energy can be used more productively talking to some other groups. Here comes my second reservation, if there will ever be anything positive in the future, this will not happen by talking to people like Halacoglu, but to others who may actually produce something.

[DominO123]

Yalpa, I will be posting the Turkish version here on this thread, it could be a better idea.

[nasty]

Domino I see that you continue your nonsensical writings

if we work meticulously to your writing, we will see.

<<<<<

Rauf Orbay'ın Hatıraları (Memoirs of Rauf Orbay), Vol. 3, 1962, p. 179

 

Rauf Orbay is a critical source since he was very highly ranked as a Lieutenant Colonel and well-regarded as one of the closest friends of Ataturk and one of the primary fighters and commanders during the Turkish War of Liberation, also being in charge of the navy as its secretary. He was also the one that signed the Mondros Treaty and one of the initiators of the Lausanne Treaty as the first prime minister of Turkey. As has been reported by the specialist Taner Akçam, these numbers was also announced many times by Ataturk himself, and in fact it was he who reported them to the British. The number of victims of 1.2 million presented during the Turkish after war tribunal probably was an addition to this number, the number of those that perished. Ironically Orbay also participated in the Armenian genocide, and also was one of those responsible for the destruction of documents that could have incriminated him. In a weekly summary of intelligence report, dated 4 March 1920, the British Military Intelligence Bureau reported:

 

"… the disappearance of documents incriminating... Itti-hadist." Talking of Rauf: "he urged the destruction of incriminating documents. It is understood that Rauf had already arranged the disappearance of documentary material implicating himself and Enver Pasa>>>>>>>>

 

but I cannot understand a thing

 

supposing turkey agreed armenian genocide(I don`t know how turkey will agree SUPPOSEDLY GENOCIDE" THIS IS BIG AND STUPIDLY DREAM)

 

yes, supposing turkey agreed genocide, what will happen???

what do armenians want?

land,compensation or only apology

which one????

[gamavor]

Neither of the above! The best turk is the dead turk!

[DominO123]

nasty, I do not represent the Armenians as an all, neither are the Armenians a compact homogenious people, you are mixing Armenian common interests or plight with invidiual plights.

 

What I ask and demand is not necessarly what every Armenians ask or demand... but recognition of the genocide is one of our common plight, and this independently from any material or land reparation. What will happen after that, I can't answer, I am not a Nostradamus.

Edited December 17, 2003 by Fadix

[phantom]

Have Nasty's posts always been this stupid, and I just wasn't paying attention, or are they degenerating over time? I sent out a search party to find his point and came up empty!

[DominO123]

Halacoglu is amazing, he is shouting on his own feets.

 

 

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Al-Jazeera, Qatar

Jan 12 2005

 

Armenian 'genocide': Probe sought

 

As Armenians prepare to mark the 90th anniversary of what they

believe was a genocide of their people by Ottoman Turkish forces, a

leading Turkish historian has called for a multi-national inquiry

into what happened.

 

Armenia says 1.5 million of its people died between 1915 and 1923 on

Ottoman territory in a systematic genocide and says the decision to

carry it out was taken by the political party then in power in

Istanbul, popularly known as the Young Turks.

 

Turkey denies genocide, saying the Armenians were victims of a

partisan war during World War One which also claimed many Muslim

Turkish lives. Turkey accuses Armenians of carrying out massacres

while siding with invading Russian troops.

 

"I think we historians, Turkish, American, French, British and

Armenian, must come together and form a commission to investigate

this issue objectively," Yusuf Halacoglu, head of the Turkish

Historical Society, told Reuters on Wednesday.

 

EU issue

 

Halacoglu, who endorses the mainstream Turkish view of the events and

rejects the genocide claims, said setting scholars to work together

was all the more important for his country because the genocide issue

threatened to complicate Turkey's entry talks with the European

Union.

 

 

The genocide issue might

complicate Turkey's EU entry

 

The European Parliament and France, home to Europe's largest Amenian

community, have both urged Turkey to recognise the killings of

Armenians between 1915 and 1923 as genocide.

 

Armenians this year mark the 90th anniversary of the events on April

24 and Turkey is to start EU entry talks on 3 October

 

Halacoglu said the commission would ideally work under the auspices

of the United Nations or another international body to help ensure

impartiality and to encourage all states concerned to open up their

archives to the panel.

 

He was due to discuss his research on the period on Wednesday with

Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul and said he hoped for official Turkish

backing for a commission.