Shuka Շուկա

[Arpa]

Please, please everybody. This is not a debate about church and religion, even if at times one would be befuddled as to which is which, when churches act as open markets during food sale or rug auctions, and fairly enough when malls and stores pretend to be churches playing Jingle Bells and Silent Night to sell their "made in China trinkets.

From another thread- “exhileration”.

(Anahit @ Mar 3 2006, 05:22 AM)

p.s. the armenian word for "bazar" is SHUKA (saving Arpa's time )

.

Azat.

haha that was great, but i bet my friend Arpa is going to proove that even shuka is not Armenian word.

Azat, even though I did not need to look it up to know that “shuka” is the same as the Arabic (is it really Arabic??? Read on), “souq”. Those of us who are familiar with Aleppo and Beirut will know where Souq Srsoq (Srsoq’s Market) and Gots Shuka (covered Market/Mall, or Hin Shuka/ Old Market) are. Mind you, the concept of mall/covered market was not an invention in North America to protect the shoppers from the cold but rather an invention in the Syrian desert to keep the heat out. And as one who has lived in a quarter of Beirut known as Zoqaq el Blat…. Read on.

Who is it that cannot pronounce S and who that cannot pronounce SH, as in “salam” v shalom”? Definitely not us as we can pronounce both the S and SH simultaneously.

Once again, I am glad I looked it up. Otherwise I would have concluded that “shuka” is from the Arabic “souq”. It turns out it is from the Assyrian “souk/zouk”, where, as above (who is it that cannot pronounce the S?), the S has turned into a SH. It turns out that “souk/zouk” simply means “street in the Asyrian. Look up again and see “Zoqaq el Blat”, simply the” street of the blats”. The word is used in Arabic just as in that anitsyal/cursed language.

According to international lexicons, the Websters being one of them, “bazaar” is of Persian origin. It may be so as my Persian dictionary does not qualify it to be of an alien origin. Yet when we look up “baz/bez”, which btw, is known among Turk-Armenians to mean cloth/linen as in diapers, consider surnames like Bez-j-ian (weavers/sellers of cloth/linen) it all makes sense when it is revealed that “bezzaz”( bazaar, my spellcheck is killing me!!) is used in Arabic to mean “dealer in cloth”.

So, does “bazaar” mean a textile market?

I am running out of “derdzan/thread” and steam.

More about “khanuth” and “vajaratun” to follow.

In the meantime can someone post a picture of the Gots Shuka/Covered Market of Yerevan?

Edited March 3, 2006 by Arpa

[Azat]

http://www.azat.net/Armenia2004/Yerevan/DSCF1795.JPG

http://www.azat.net/Armenia2004/Yerevan/DSCF1796.JPG

[Armen]

Azat jan, I bet that's your favourite place in Yerevan, right? The colors, the smells, the conversations... Are you realy coming?

[Arpa]

Yes!

Azat!

Thank you.

That is so beautiful.

I will never forget where I had the most delicious figs/tuz.

[kakachik77]

in Hebrew it is the same "shuk"

also in Hebrew "xanut" is the same armenian "xanut"

[Takoush]

Azat; what a nice place is the Շուկա in Yerevan. Would I love to be there now choosing my tomatoes, my veggies and my պտուղներ. That would be peachy!!!

 

Oh...and let's not forget the ծիրաններ.

Edited March 4, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[Arpa]

in Hebrew it is the same "shuk"

also in Hebrew "xanut" is the same armenian "xanut"

Hebrew? My vor*k!

There is no such thing as Hebrew. It is a bastardized version ot Aramaic and Arabic. Remember that above I made a distinction to where S is pronounced as SH as in the Aramaic "salam" and the Hebrew "shalom".

Now, let's get back to the subject at hand.

====

Of course “khanuth” is also from the Semitic. Or is it?

We will come to that just as we will treat all the other words that mean “market”.

In the meantime a little levity.

Sure, all the produce at the Gots Shuka are so delicious, the reason I mentioned figs/thuz may be because here in the east coast we cannot find good fresh figs, even in the so called season the figs they sell here taste like cardboard because they have to be picked in an unripe condition and shipped over 3000 miles. Ripe figs have a very short shelf life. Incidentally, I had good tasting figs in California as well.

 

Here is the levity.

We all know that the word “thuz/թուզ” is at times used as a euphemism for the female genitalia. This is not unique to the Armenian language. I will not get into graphics as why this is. Just use your imagination. Yet, all this time we have been made to believe that “adamathouz/ադամաթուզ” was the Armenian word for the fruit of the cactus, i.e. cactus pear or prickly pear. Now I am told that ադամաթուզ is in fact the Armenian word for banana.

Does the shape have anything to do?

We were also made to believe that the Armenian word for banana was banan.

 

Just as in Armenia potatoes are known as Kartofil and tomatoes as “pomidor”, while here in the west we call the latter “lolik” and the former “getnakhndzor” from the French “pomme de terre/earth apple”. And as to tomatoes being known as “pomidor”*. The reason for that is when tomatoes were discovered in America and brought to Europe, they were not red , they were gold colored ( once in a while one may find golden tomatoes at the market), they were called “pomme d’or” i.e. golden apples, and as usual they were touted as miracle fruits**, magical cures, and above all as aphrodisiacs

 

*The Arabs call it “banadora” because as we know there is no P in Arabic script.

** What? You didn’t know that tomato is a fruit??

 

PS. In the meantime I thought of another word that fit’s the subject- “amagazine”. It also has an interesting etymology. Anyone remember that store in Yerevan that was known as “Ounivermag”/Universal Magazin??

Edited March 4, 2006 by Arpa

[Arpa]

As far as “market-place” is concerned, I may have touched upon this before, yet…

Before we proceed further let us take at least one thing out of contention. There is so much mess/trash/shamble and BS to clean before we get to real and pure native Armenian!!!

“Shambles“.

We read below;

1Cor.10

[25] Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

As we can see above, in the Bible the word is used to describe a messy dirty place, an open air slaughterhouse where not only animals were slaughtered, they were also displayed in an extremely “unappetizing, if not disgusting” manner.

Nowadays the word is used to mean…see below. I have no opinion to share. You be the judge.

http://www.answers.com/topic/shambles

sham·bles (shăm'bəlz)

pl.n. (used with a sing. verb)

A scene or condition of complete disorder or ruin: “The economy was in a shambles” (W. Bruce Lincoln).

Great clutter or jumble; a total mess: made dinner and left the kitchen a shambles.

A place or scene of bloodshed or carnage.

A scene or condition of great devastation.

A slaughterhouse.

Archaic. A meat market or butcher shop.

WORD HISTORY A place or situation referred to as a shambles is usually a mess, but it is no longer always the bloody mess it once was. The history of the word begins innocently enough with the Latin word scamnum, “a stool or bench serving as a seat, step, or support for the feet, for example.” The diminutive scamillum, “low stool,” was borrowed by speakers of Old English as sceamol, “stool, bench, table.” Old English sceamol became Middle English shamel, which developed the specific sense in the singular and plural of “a place where meat is butchered and sold.” The Middle English compound shamelhouse meant “slaughterhouse,” a sense that the plural shambles developed (first recorded in 1548) along with the figurative sense “a place or scene of bloodshed” (first recorded in 1593). Our current, more generalized meaning, “a scene or condition of disorder,” is first recorded in 1926.

 

btw.My Eng-Arm dictionary describes "shamble" as spantanots, msavajari krpak/slaughterhouse, butchershop.

Edited March 4, 2006 by Arpa

[Arpa]

Allow me to get ahead of myself. We will come back to each of the other words. Let us treat the last first.

Above I kind amused myself mentioning that Soviet era department store in Yerevan known a “Univermag”-(universal magazine). We had much fun playing on words , one which was “uni vermak”- (has blanket), or “chuni vermak” etc.

I had already known that “magazine” from the Arabic “makhzan”, Persians use the word too and they do attribute it to the Arabic. Surprise!! See below. It is from Aramaic (could it be from the Armenian??). The most relevant Armenian words for it may be “shtemaran/շտեմարան” and “mtheranots/մթերանոց”, each of which deserve separate treatment .

Survey the quotes below. You may also find the whole article interesting.

 

Magazine.

The English word magazine, and the French word magasin come from the Spanish almacén and the Arabic al-makhzan, for “storehouse”.

http://www.donlorenzo.com/stories/arabic%20words.htm

And here is a bonus from that same site;

More than a source culture, the Arabs acted as a bridgehead between Asia and Europe, carrying with their caravans, from as far away as Indonesia, plants, inventions and words. The numbers we use and call Arabic because the Arabs imported them – although no longer use them themselves - are in fact Indian. The eggplant comes from the Persian batinjan, which the Arabs transformed to badinjanah and passed into Spanish as berenjena, and into French, with the article still in place but transformed from al- to au-, as aubergine.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method...nktext=magazine

Dictionary

mag·a·zine (măg'ə-zēn', măg'ə-zēn')

n.

A periodical containing a collection of articles, stories, pictures, or other features.

A television program that presents a variety of topics, usually on current events, in a format that often includes interviews and commentary.

A place where goods are stored, especially a building in a fort or a storeroom on a warship where ammunition is kept.

The contents of a storehouse, especially a stock of ammunition.

A compartment in some types of firearms, often a small detachable box, in which cartridges are held to be fed into the firing chamber.

A compartment in a camera in which rolls or cartridges of film are held for feeding through the exposure mechanism.

Any of various compartments attached to machines, used for storing or supplying necessary material.

adj.

Of or relating to periodicals: a magazine story.

[French magasin, storehouse, from Old French magazin (possibly via Old Italian magazzino), from Arabic mahāzin, pl. of mahzan, from hazana, to store, from Aramaic ḥassen, to possess, hoard, derived stem of ḥəsan, to be strong.]

 

Here is a puzzler. Why are periodicals like that of the National Geographic called magazines?

 

PS. Iran01, do the Persians use “khazna” to mean strong box/safe or cash box. One source says they use “sundouq amana” to mean safe.

Edited March 4, 2006 by Arpa

[Arpa]

Willl you guys stop distracting me!!

Please do!!

Ազատ** շուկա free market գոց շուկա/ բակ շուկա closed market (mall?) բաց շուկա open market սպիտակ շուկ ա white market(?) սեւ շուկա black market թուխ շուկա gray market, and finally;

Կարմիր Շուկա/ Red Market

http://www.armeniadiaspora.com/projects/ns...kadrakhtik.html

 

Why did Hakob Baronian name his character “Charshili Artin Agha “ and not Շուկայամոլ Արթին Աղա ??

 

** Hey Azat!! How come you never told us about that market named for you?

Yeah, yeah. We already know about that "Mongolian" barbeque stand named for Sip.

NB

The Anglo Saxon word “market” is supposed to be based on “merces/merches” (?) to mean “merchandise”. Tnis becomes more self explanatory when we consider the French words "marchet"-market and "marchandise"-merchandise, pronounced "marshey" and "marshandiz" respectively.

Edited March 4, 2006 by Arpa

[kakachik77]

Arpa,

Not sure if linguistincs for you is a hobby or a profession. Before you can fully analyze anything in Eastern Armenian, it's us fair/important to consider Russians influence on Armenian. For example, both pomidor and kartofil were taken from Russian and in turn Russian took French (pomidor) and German (kartofil). Same univermag is Russian Universalni Magazin, hayeren it was called "hanrayin xanut" I believe. All I am saying I guess that the LINK is the Russian language here which your posts have failed to mention altogether. In my opinion, without Russian Armenians would pick up Persian or Turkish words for their veggies since these are the other 2 major groups around Armenia with stronger linguistic influences.

 

Also lobi is from Georgian.

[Arpa]

Arpa,

Not sure if linguistincs for you is a hobby or a profession. Before you can fully analyze anything in Eastern Armenian, it's us fair/important to consider Russians influence on Armenian. For example, both pomidor and

==

Also lobi is from Georgian.

No! Linguistics is not my profession.

Thank Aramazt!!!

You don't want me to starve do you?

If only some of correspondents get off what that Book of Lies aka Bible says and instead learn what WE ... have to say! Don't get me wrong. I still use that Book to illustrate xenophobia, hate, intolerance and bigotry mean. I have known for quite sometime that that Book (the so called Old Testament, whatever the H*** it may mean, not the New), as a users' handbook of HATE and bigotry, nevertheless it gives us clues as to who the Araratians(Urarteans) and the Philistines are.

I make a living otherwise.

Thank you!!

Yet I know how to search before I place my "big foot" in my equally "big mouth".

Thank you “Little Tulip”- Poqrik Kakach.

NO. Linguistics is not my profeesion. If you mean I ignore and pass over the Russian factor, you are right.

Besides the fact that my Russian is limited, almost none. As Russian, an IE language, is no more than …. ,if you would pardon another pun… Pig Latin.

And, if you would allow me one more pun/barakhagh, that “lobi” being from the Georgian is worth no more than a “bag of beans”.

”lobi/lubia” is from the Greek, via Arabic to mean “skin/integument/covering”, in reference to the tough skin of the “bean”.

Of course, the Arabs have another word for it-fassoulia. I will not search to ascertain the origin, except that the Italian national dish J is “pasta fazule”, incorrectly interpreted/transliterated from “Pasta Fagigoli” from “fassoulia/bean”. Who is the owner of “fassoulia”?? I will not search to see which came first “fazul” or “fassoulia”.

Look here;

http://cilicia.com/armo_cb_aghtzan.html#FASSOULIA_PLAKI

Edited March 4, 2006 by Arpa

[kakachik77]

oh, thanks for clarifying "lobi" Somehow, I always thought it was one of those Caucasian (aka non-indo-european words in Armenian) but I guess it is not.

[Zartonk]

It turns out it is from the Assyrian “souk/zouk”, where, as above (who is it that cannot pronounce the S?), the S has turned into a SH. It turns out that “souk/zouk” simply means “street in the Asyrian. Look up again and see “Zoqaq el Blat”, simply the” street of the blats”. The word is used in Arabic just as in that anitsyal/cursed language.

 

Both khanut and shuka are in our tounge courtesy of Assyrian.

 

Also, my father told me his current understanding of the word bazaar: "baz" (again,noren) and "zarr" (gold, wealth) here meaning profit and income. So something like "the place of consistent profit", though I am sceptical

 

My own initial reaction had to do with baz as in "open".

[Zartonk]

P.S. : That enterance facade of the Yervan market is one piece of beauty

[Arpa]

Both khanut and shuka are in our tounge courtesy of Assyrian.

 

Also, my father told me his current understanding of the word bazaar: "baz" (again,noren) and "zarr" (gold, wealth) here meaning profit and income. So something like "the place of consistent profit", though I am sceptical

 

My own initial reaction had to do with baz as in "open".

Once again I am getting ahead of myself.

Kick me!

Let me kick myself!

Shame on me!

Shame on you!

Shame on everybody!

:)

How come we couldn’t see it?

 

ՎԱՃԱՌԱՏՈՒՆ

 

Վաճառ վաճառել, to sell to trade.

Վաճառական, merchant etc.

 

Pahlavi, Vacar, vajar, vachar to mean market/shuka.

Now let us change the V to B and J to Z and see what we get …

 

Tata!!!

 

BAZAAR/BAZAR. So, shall we amend our word VAJARAKAN/ՎԱՃԱՌԱԿԱՆ to ՊԱԶԱՌԱԿԱՆ/Bazarakan??

In fact in the Pahlavi /Persian “bazargan” means merchant.

 

Btw. There is a word “bezirkan” that loosely means peddler. Consider the surname Bezirganian/Bezirkanian.

Edited March 5, 2006 by Arpa

[Arpa]

And now,

ԽԱՆՈՒԹ

KHANUT/KHANUTH

Note. Spelled with a TH as the Armenian THO/Թ is the equivalent of the Greek THETA.

 

From the Assyrian “xanutha”, shuka, market. Appears in the Arabic, and yes in Hebrew as “hanut”, note as well that the H in this case is the harsh H closest to KHԽ.

[Arpa]

BAZAAR/BAZAR. So, shall we amend our word VAJARAKAN/ՎԱՃԱՌԱԿԱՆ to ՊԱԶԱՌԱԿԱՆ/Bazarakan??Consider the surname Bezirganian/Bezirkanian.

I was searching for sites to see what has been said about “Vajarakan”, and unexpectedly I found the following among others , which I had been looking for a long time.

It is NOT one my favorite works, as you can see it is very insulting and antisocial.

I will post this in its entirety and his other works in the literature section..

Pease, please DO NOT comment about this in this thread, as you can see this thread is about “language”. We can move it to another topic subject, which I will do under “Culture”.

 

ՀԱՅԵՐՈԻՍ ԹՈԻՔԸ

Դուն խելոք, հաշվով վաճառական ես,

Մյուլք, փող ու ապրանք, կասեն, շատ ունես. -

Բայց թե փողեդ շահ չունի Հայաստան,

Թըքել ենք քու ալ, փողիդ ալ վըրան:

========

*******

Աղբյուր՝ Ռափայել Պատկանյան - Երկերի ժողովածու

[Zartonk]

Arpa, you are owning the show.

 

Persian bazargan is bazzar-gan, hence bazar-akan, or our vajarakan.

 

I appreciate the clearification...

Edited March 6, 2006 by Zartonk

[Arpa]

So, now we come full circle.

This whole thing started when Anahit corrected us saying it is not “bazar” it is “shuka”.

Even I was not prepared for the final surprise punch line that bazar and vajar are one and the same.

[Armenak]

Sorry to revive this one as well, just wanted to add տոնավաճարանոց...

 

In my dictionary the second definition for "market" (after շուկայ) is հրապարակ. Խանութ isn't even listed.

[Dave]

That's because "shouga" isn't "khanut"

 

"shuga" = market

"khanut" = store

[Arpa]

Sorry to revive this one as well, just wanted to add տոնավաճարանոց...

 

In my dictionary the second definition for "market" after [size3]շուկայ[/size] is հրապարակ. Խանութ isn't even listed.

That is very interesting.

Which dictionary is that?

Of course. If we consider the “hraparak” to be synonymous with “city center” the “market will make sense as many hraparaks also serve as (open)markets. The word has come to be used in other forms like hraparakayin etc. to men public, i.e public market.

Even Ajarian gives up scratching his head. After searching in the Pahlavi “fravar…” he shyly suggests “hour/fire” . Why not? Would it be that “hraparak” is based on “hour/fire”, the center city where the symbolic eternal fire, subject of reverence was kept? As to the “parak” ending” I also give up.

[Armenak]

Which dictionary is that?

Գրպանի Նոր Բարարան

 

New Pocket Dictionary (English-Armenian and Armenian-English)

Mesrob Kouyoumjian

Updated by Levon Torossian

Beirut 2002

Edited July 25, 2006 by Armenak

[Harut]

ok, what's the last verdict regarding the word 'xanut'/խանութ? i've been arguing with my arabic coworker about this word for over a year now... though he pronouces it 'hanout'... do i win or lose?