Arpa Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Here is an excerpt from an article that was written a couple of years ago. Armenia2020 Church, State and Religion in Armenia Issue Paper prepared by the Arak-29 Foundation (Yerevan) Research Team Leader: Thomas J. Samuelian, J.D., Ph.D. Fr. Mesrop Aramian Fr. Dajad Davidian Manuk Hergnyan, Ph.D. Tamar Hajian, J.D., LL.M. Jason Demirchian, M.Div. "In virtually every sphere of Armenian life from the 4th through the 18th century, the church and clergy, led the nation, creating the alphabet, language, literature, translations from foreign languages, scholarship (e.g., science, history, philosophy, theology, music, art, architecture), and social services institutions (hospitals, schools, universities, orphanages, old age homes). In the 19th century, parallel to the Church, a significant non-ecclesiastic scholarly and literary life developed. As the creator and heir to Armenia’s large cultural inheritance, the Church continues to be the protector and purveyor of Armenian culture, in Armenia and to Armenians dispersed throughout the world and in particular the Mid-East. " So as I have said before, for those who criticize Christianity and the Armenian Church, please feel free to use another language, history, music and culture that the Church has fought to preserve. Again, no one is forcing anybody to be Armenian or Christian. It is amazing how such idle generalizations go unchallenged. No one dares ask for specifics of who, what, when, where. Let’s play a game. Let us substitute “Armenian” with.. your choice … French, Italian, British, American… and even … Islamic (Turkish) church (?) and see how different the outcome will be. Probably not much except for one thing. All of the above have been and still are mighty empires …!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 WHAT? I'm saying you are only fooling yourself if you really think Vartan Mamigonian died for only Armenianess, and not Christianity along with it. You just proved my point. All you have to do is "Armenianess" and "Christianity" exchange their places in your statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 It is amazing how such idle generalizations go unchallenged. No one dares ask for specifics of who, what, when, where. Let’s play a game. Let us substitute “Armenian” with.. your choice … French, Italian, British, American… and even … Islamic (Turkish) church (?) and see how different the outcome will be. Probably not much except for one thing. All of the above have been and still are mighty empires …!! Getting back to substitution of Armenian with any of the above, we all know where St. Peters Hospital is, where St. Mary orphanage is where St Luke’s old age home is, where St. Joseph school is (those who know Beirut know where that university is)., where Notre Dame is… even that one of the largest hospitals in Beirut, the Maqased built and maintained by the welfare arm of the Mosque. Now let us see where Sourb Petros hospital, Sb. Maryam orphanage , Sb Sahak old age home and Sb. Mesrop University are. Was the Mashtotsi Anvan Matenadarn built and maintained by the Church? Even in Western Armenia, in places like Marash and Kharberd hospitals and colleges were built and maintained by the missionaries. Also, church halls and other structures in the compounds, which are in fact nothing but meeting places for the respective factions do not count as humanitarina, educational or health centers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Getting back to substitution of Armenian with any of the above, we all know where St. Peters Hospital is, where St. Mary orphanage is where St Luke’s old age home is, where St. Joseph school is (those who know Beirut know where that university is)., where Notre Dame is… even that one of the largest hospitals in Beirut, the Maqased built and maintained by the welfare arm of the Mosque. Now let us see where Sourb Petros hospital, Sb. Maryam orphanage , Sb Sahak old age home and Sb. Mesrop University are. Was the Mashtotsi Anvan Matenadarn built and maintained by the Church? Even in Western Armenia, in places like Marash and Kharberd hospitals and colleges were built and maintained by the missionaries. Also, church halls and other structures in the compounds, which are in fact nothing but meeting places for the respective factions do not count as humanitarina, educational or health centers. Arpa you raise very good point here and I know where you're coming from. I'm sick and tired of some people who question your Armenianess when you dare to challenge their way of thinking. They talk about the benefits of the church but never say a word about the harm it caused. The church turned us into slaves of religion, we brag about being the first nation to accept Christianity rather than pointing out our cultural values. Please can someone tell me how it helped us for being first nation to accept Christianity? Our clergy and our political leaders moulded the mass so bad that the majority of Armenians forgot how to think for themselves, thats why we hear all the time statements and questions such as these; If you're not religious (Christian) you're not Armenian If you're not in one of the political parties you're not Armenian If you attend this particular church you're not Armenian If you don't know Armenian language you're not Armenian If you marry an odar you're not Armenian The list can go on forever, nobody has the right to question someone elses Armenianess by their narrow minded definition of it as to what it should be. We all talk about the importance of getting united but as soon someone tells something different that person is quickley casted out. Until we Armenians don't learn the value of divercity we are doomed to fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 If you're not religious (Christian) you're not Armenian If you're not in one of the political parties you're not Armenian If you attend this particular church you're not Armenian If you don't know Armenian language you're not Armenian If you marry an odar you're not Armenian ... and whoever gets offended by those foolish "definitions" and feels "chased out", then maybe he/she should be "chased out"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 ... and whoever gets offended by those foolish "definitions" and feels "chased out", then maybe he/she should be "chased out"... Entirely disagree. As we, as a community, progress towards a global society, it's important that we realise that there is room to embrace diversity while celebrating (and nuturing) what makes us unique. Trying to build a silo around "armenian-ness" will inevitably result in stagnation, or worse, disintegration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 BTW the last couple of posts are off topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Entirely disagree. As we, as a community, progress towards a global society, it's important that we realise that there is room to embrace diversity while celebrating (and nuturing) what makes us unique. Trying to build a silo around "armenian-ness" will inevitably result in stagnation, or worse, disintegration. vava, i don't think you got my point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 ... and whoever gets offended by those foolish "definitions" and feels "chased out", then maybe he/she should be "chased out"... Harut I'm not talking about the sensitivities and the self confidence of the people who hear these remarks but about those who are brainwashed into beleiving of these definitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 You just proved my point. All you have to do is "Armenianess" and "Christianity" exchange their places in your statement. http://www.armenian.com/history4.html www.armenianheritage.com/hivartan.htm don't manipulate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 The church turned us into slaves of religion A typical accusation from a "free" thinker. Our clergy and our political leaders moulded the mass so bad that the majority of Armenians forgot how to think for themselves, thats why we hear all the time statements and questions such as these; If you're not religious (Christian) you're not Armenian If you're not in one of the political parties you're not Armenian If you attend this particular church you're not Armenian If you don't know Armenian language you're not Armenian If you marry an odar you're not Armenian You tend to always associate religion with Christianity. Realize that they are different. None of those claims are true, but they don't bring you any closer to your Armenian heritage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 A typical accusation from a "free" thinker. You tend to always associate religion with Christianity. Realize that they are different. None of those claims are true, but they don't bring you any closer to your Armenian heritage. Seb you win you are too smart for me. I didn't know Christianity was not a religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Christianity is a verb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Christianity is a verb. How would you conjugate it? I christian You christian He christians We christian They christian? verb, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 vava, i don't think you got my point... Probably not. Care to explain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Christianity is a verb. I told you, you won congrats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 How would you conjugate it? I christian You christian He christians We christian They christian? verb, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Again, I have also mentioned this before. If people are expressing the view of tolerance regarding accepting other religions, make sure that everyone understands by default to be tolerant is to be tolerant of everyone’s view even views that are contrary to each other. If a person is considered tolerant of other views then they must be tolerant of all views. Unfortunately, this is not the case in this thread where bigotry and hypocrisy are quite evident in the non-toleration of the Christian view. And to reply to Yervant1’s statement about questioning a persons Armenianism, then what are we all doing here at this forum? I am a firm believer that we should always questions ourselves to understand ourselves better as an ancient civilization rather then the only binding factor that Armenians have now is the Genocide. And how the Armenian can become feeble minded into “fit” in with everyone else thinks and accepts, and to “tolerate” others who go against their own historical culture. If people want to express tolerance then tolerate the muslim Armenians and the Jewish Armenians and the Hindu Armenians and the Atheists Armenians and the list goes on and on. But if a person states that they are a muslim or Jew who is Armenian then by default most Armenians would not consider them Armenians, that is just a simple fact. And this is not only in the context of religion but in other areas. Most Armenians (in the Diaspora) don’t have an understanding of their culture let alone Christianity. They have no clue about Ar, Khaldi, Movses Khorenatsi, Mher(besides Arpa ). Just like how most people here have no understanding that the unify element in the Armenian culture is Christianity and the Church. You don’t want to believe me fine, no one is forcing you. But to go around and disrespect what your ancestor fought for and believed with sarcasm and to state that you know better the scholars and what is historically accurate is purely egotistical and self centered. I know now most of you are going to think that “someone” said “something” to hurt my feelings, but for those people rest assured this is the type of conversation I have before with other people. And once again, I am not forcing anyone to be Armenian or Christian, but don’t change the meanings of these words to accommodate your own personal needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 How would you conjugate it? I christian You christian He christians We christian They christian? verb, huh? Try thinking outside the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Again, I have also mentioned this before. If people are expressing the view of tolerance regarding accepting other religions, make sure that everyone understands by default to be tolerant is to be tolerant of everyone’s view even views that are contrary to each other. If a person is considered tolerant of other views then they must be tolerant of all views. Unfortunately, this is not the case in this thread where bigotry and hypocrisy are quite evident in the non-toleration of the Christian view. And to reply to Yervant1’s statement about questioning a persons Armenianism, then what are we all doing here at this forum? I am a firm believer that we should always questions ourselves to understand ourselves better as an ancient civilization rather then the only binding factor that Armenians have now is the Genocide. And how the Armenian can become feeble minded into “fit” in with everyone else thinks and accepts, and to “tolerate” others who go against their own historical culture. If people want to express tolerance then tolerate the muslim Armenians and the Jewish Armenians and the Hindu Armenians and the Atheists Armenians and the list goes on and on. But if a person states that they are a muslim or Jew who is Armenian then by default most Armenians would not consider them Armenians, that is just a simple fact. And this is not only in the context of religion but in other areas. Most Armenians (in the Diaspora) don’t have an understanding of their culture let alone Christianity. They have no clue about Ar, Khaldi, Movses Khorenatsi, Mher(besides Arpa ). Just like how most people here have no understanding that the unify element in the Armenian culture is Christianity and the Church. You don’t want to believe me fine, no one is forcing you. But to go around and disrespect what your ancestor fought for and believed with sarcasm and to state that you know better the scholars and what is historically accurate is purely egotistical and self centered. I know now most of you are going to think that “someone” said “something” to hurt my feelings, but for those people rest assured this is the type of conversation I have before with other people. And once again, I am not forcing anyone to be Armenian or Christian, but don’t change the meanings of these words to accommodate your own personal needs. Assumption #1 on your part that other religions are tolerated and not Christianity is wrong. Some of us have no use for religion period. As for tolarence of it we're not against any religion it's people like you that can't tolerate the lack of religion. Assumption #2 that people on this thread is hypocrit and bigots is wrong too. We're not pushing any religion down to anybodies throat or putting any conditions and regulations as how to be Armenian. You are the biggest hypocrit and bigot for saying that nobody is forcing anyone to be Armenian or Christian as if you have the key for Armenianness gate. Assumption #3 that you can question someone's Armenianness in this forum is wrong. You can discuss what is Armenian and express your opinion about it but never assume that you have the legitimate right to decide who can be Armenian and who can't by your narrow definition of it. Assumption #4 you think that if we don't accept religion as a way of life than we're against our cultural interests. Wrong again what gives you that idea that we're against our culture, if you truly beleive that you should get your head checked. You talk about tolerance from others but you have no tolerance of accepting others as Armenian unless they are Christian. I have not seen any muslims, jews, hindus and others lined up in front of Armenia gates to be Armenian so don't get paranoid. When you say 80% of Armenians don't accept these people as Armenians because they are like you who did not mature enough to be inclusive. If the church is the unifying force behind Armenians, how come most of the time churches are empty. The church might have been a factor in the past but today it's irrelevant, most of the sermons are recycled crap and they don't do what they preach. What personal needs are you talking about? Very soon you will start talking about conspiracies. Again you show your arragont approach by saying that nobody is forcing you to be Armenian or Christian, who are you to question others if they can be Armenian or not with your definition of it. Who gave you the right to decide who gets in and who doesn't others can also make their own criteria and exclude you from it. As for Arpa's praise that was nice, if I were you I would read his posts again. As a result of these types of mentality of exclusion, narrow mindedness and strict guidelines as to who can be Armenian has driven lots of Armenians into assimilation. Thus loosing lots of potential help for our cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 If people are expressing the view of tolerance regarding accepting other religions, make sure that everyone understands by default to be tolerant is to be tolerant of everyone’s view even views that are contrary to each other. If a person is considered tolerant of other views then they must be tolerant of all views. Unfortunately, this is not the case in this thread where bigotry and hypocrisy are quite evident in the non-toleration of the Christian view. I think most intolerance on the "Christian view" is directed towards the non-tolerant parts of the "Christian view". A religion is not to be tolerated in and of itself just for the sake of tolerance. I think any ideology only earns my tolerance, if it is tolerant of others. And as demonstrated over and over by many so called "Christians", tolernace for other ideologies seems to be one of the least valued aspects of the religion. And that is expected since many so called Christians are under the firm belief that all non christians will go to Hell. Of course that thinking couldn't be further from the truth (and maybe even TRUE Christianity maybe). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 (edited) I know now most of you are going to think that “someone” said “something” to hurt my feelings, but for those people rest assured this is the type of conversation I have before with other people. And once again, I am not forcing anyone to be Armenian or Christian, but don’t change the meanings of these words to accommodate your own personal needs. Why not? In the end of end, religion, beliefs, culture, identity, etc are all PERSONAL things so why must we always demand some sort of blanket definition where everyone is supposed to live by? Edited March 16, 2006 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Try thinking outside the box. Vava can you please conjugate box (I think this is a verb too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Assumption #2 that people on this thread is hypocrit and bigots is wrong too. We're not pushing any religion down to anybodies throat or putting any conditions and regulations as how to be Armenian. You are the biggest hypocrit and bigot for saying that nobody is forcing anyone to be Armenian or Christian as if you have the key for Armenianness gate. Don't speak for others. I recall Arpa calling the Bible a "piece of shit" and other remarks which I will not state. It doesn't help when you judge others to defend yourself. If the church is the unifying force behind Armenians, how come most of the time churches are empty. The church might have been a factor in the past but today it's irrelevant, most of the sermons are recycled crap and they don't do what they preach. yehhhhhhhh.....like you would know... who are you to question others if they can be Armenian or not with your definition of it. Who gave you the right to decide who gets in and who doesn't others can also make their own criteria and exclude you from it....As a result of these types of mentality of exclusion, narrow mindedness and strict guidelines as to who can be Armenian has driven lots of Armenians into assimilation. Thus loosing lots of potential help for our cause. Everyone has an opinion. We can choose to see whoever we want as Armenian, but it's your actions that define who you are. I am to be defined as an Christian Armenian with my actions, not with my words. Claiming to be something is different to actually "being" something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Don't speak for others. I recall Arpa calling the Bible a "piece of shit" and other remarks which I will not state. It doesn't help when you judge others to defend yourself. yehhhhhhhh.....like you would know... Everyone has an opinion. We can choose to see whoever we want as Armenian, but it's your actions that define who you are. I am to be defined as an Christian Armenian with my actions, not with my words. Claiming to be something is different to actually "being" something. Seb you win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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