bellthecat Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 I have noticed an increasing amount of Turkish genocide denial propaganda on ebay. NOTE - I am NOT refering to genocide denial books, though they are invariably sold by sellers from Turkey. I am refering to this sort of thing: Armenian bible This is a worthless 19th century printed bible (well, maybe worth 10 dollars) that has been inserted into ebay so that the propaganda text that follows can also be inserted (looks like it has been lifted from one of the Turkish government websites - Domino might know). The guy is probably your typical neo-fascist immigant Turk living in London. I don't want to be advocating illegal acts, and I won't do it myself since I use ebay and they have ways of tracing where bids come from. But, it might be "interesting" if someone who is not a user of ebay were to join just to bid for all that person's lot's (click on"view sellers other items" to find them), with, obviously, having no intention of paying for them. Then, tell the seller why you have done it after the auction has ended. And say you will keep on doing it until this person quits ebay. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 (edited) I wonder if there could be done something by using this? http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/everyone-profanity.html Telling that the seeler is using what he sell as a tool to propagate genocide denialist racistic thought... if many reports eBay might contact him, no? Edited June 8, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 I doubt you can do anything. It would be easier to do something about the "Hebrew" though and that only as a correction and not under the pretext of "profanity" or "slander" - even if I can't verify from the poor-quality pics what the writing is, I could assure the single-digit IQ dork that it is not written from right to left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 (edited) I doubt you can do anything. It would be easier to do something about the "Hebrew" though and that only as a correction and not under the pretext of "profanity" or "slander" - even if I can't verify from the poor-quality pics what the writing is, I could assure the single-digit IQ dork that it is not written from right to left. It does not seem to be Hebrew but Armenian(see the capital letters on titles). Steve could correct me, I think there is no way that this Bible could date of 1453, where I believe there was no personal Bibles. See the apparent size of it, were the bibles of that time not huge compared with that one? And as well, Bibles were done with Hand works, artistic drawings, each ones build individually with hand works. No? This ones seem to be copied pages and with a small personal Bible size. There is as well as the oxidation of the paper that just dosn't have the same look as the Manuscripts of that period that I viewed. Weird. Stormig, are you sure that we can do nothing about it? What about the copyright policy of eBay? The texts the author has plagiated, each are copyrighted... and he does not include the authors. It's against eBay policy. Edited June 8, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 The bider probably is one of his friends etc... their probable goal is to make that person win the bid, since he won't pay he can bid what he wants. They are using this tactic as propaganda tool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 (edited) WAIT A MINUTE, how could a printed work exist before 1455(since it is from its look obviously a printed and not a hand made) from the Ottoman, when the first printed Bible was made in 1455 known as the Gutenberg Bible, and the first book ever published. Edited June 8, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 I must be blind. I can't see the letters either. Could be anything. Subjectively I would say it's Armenian, but that only because of the first letter of the title which looks like an S or M. Only speculation though. As far as I know, bibles came in all shapes and sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 I must be blind. I can't see the letters either. Could be anything. Subjectively I would say it's Armenian, but that only because of the first letter of the title which looks like an S or M. Only speculation though. As far as I know, bibles came in all shapes and sizes. Nairi, can it be possible to write that smale in two collons, and place a header with even smaller letters? Where are the hand works of any non printed hand made Armenian Bibles? Furthermore, the ink intencity is constant, it degradation from far seems constant... it seems very suspicious to me. and you tell me that bibles are in different shapes, in that years bibles were not open to public, it happened a lot later with the printing technology... why any hand writer will force himself so much as to reduce the size of that Bible? And beside this, is there any example of such a Bible datting the same year? This bible seems similar to a bible I have dating of about 60 years back. There are lines like this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 (edited) That's how a page of an Armenian bible of the same years look like. Whatch that, and return to the other one and tell me it is not printed. http://www.si.umich.edu/Art_History/UMMA/1958/1958_1.162.jpg Edited June 8, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Another thing, the pages are too tin, papers those years were not that tin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Fadio, see here: http://www.matenadaran.am/en/history/uniqueitems.html The smaller, the cheaper. The less color, the cheaper. Or maybe for other reasons. I'm not saying it's not printed. I looked again and saw that it is indeed doubtful that it's handwritten, although the pages and script are so small that even that is very hard to tell. Manuscripts can be very deceiving from a large enough distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 (edited) Here we go again! We place ourselves exactly where they want us. On the defensive. They learned their lesson very well, or should I say we taught them how to behave. They learned that placing us on the defensive they can extract inconsistencies and force us to show how ugly we really are. It is nothing new. For a long time they were on the defensive when they were very meekly just denying, and now they have boldened and learned new tricks to bait us, a huge spider's web is being woven, traps are being set at every step of the way, they are not denying it anymore but trying to turn the tables to make the victim look like the perpetrator. In fact we should learn to take advantage of their stupidity. If yo read the comments you will see that it does say that when the Seljuks arrived the Armenians were this and that. Aha! Meaning Armenians were there already. This is something new as no other Turkish source even acknowldges that there was such a thing as Armenian and that all those landmarks attributed to them are nothing but Christian Turkish. I agree with Stormig. For every "tit" we respond to their "tat" we sink deeper and get cornered as their intention is. We have to learn to get out of this reactive "tit for tat" mode and take hold of our offensive placing them on the defensive once again. History and archives are on our side, and they know that. However their defensive is firing back when they show how stupidly idiotic they are. They advertise an "Armenian Bible" and they say it is in Hebrew. What a moron! They don't even know the difference between Armenian script and Zulu. And that shows how much history they know, or care to. Read the comments further and see how they are not denying the Genocide but justifying it because the Armenians sided with the enemy, and more gobbledigook garbage. Duuuhhh! Armenians had been trying to rid themselves from Ottoman yoke ever since they first set foot on out lands. How is it a crime to try any way we could to accomplish that? Would even siding with the devil be a crime? Why are we losing our composure and letting them ruffle our feathers? Why are we cowering and turning into cowards when they accuse us of what they deem treason? Treason? How? Is fighting for one's land and rights a treason? Since when? Get off this cowardly defensive mode and place them on the defensive by punching huge holes in their arguments. Let them know, no matter what they say, we have been here since time immemorial, and we will be long after "Ottoman" and "Turk" are a distant memory. In conclusion. Instead of arguing with them about their pseudohistory just show them how stupidly moronic they are. Do they think the world does not know the difference between Armenian and Hebrew? Only idiots like them would not know that. PS. I can see the print. If you enlarge the second picture you will see the capital letters and they are legible except that it is rotated 90 degrees. It reads; MARGAREYUTYUN DANILEI Edited June 8, 2004 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 (edited) But dear, none compares there, the interesting one is a church calender, with only dates and notes,... look at the spacings etc... and take a look at the last one that dates over a hundred of years after the supposed bible... as well take a closer look at the paper texture... whatever the language, if it were to not Armenian(something is sure, it is not Hebrew), still the spacing between the letters, the paper texture, the gloss effect etc... the kind of Black used, etc... nothing compares with any Bibles or Armenian manuscripts, the others you have shown me, even from far, I would have no diificulty saying it's a handwritting manuscript... the supposed Bible you see there, I have seen a bunch that look near identical in Lebanon which are old of a half century or so. Edited June 8, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 PS. I can see the print. If you enlarge the second picture you will see the capital letters and they are legible except that it is rotated 90 degrees. Exactly!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 I think the fact alone that the picture is very blurry is reason enough to write a complaint about it to ebay. Hey, another thing. If that bible is indeed as old as they claim it is, how is it sold on ebay??? By an individual??? Should this not be museum or academic property??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted June 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 WAIT A MINUTE, how could a printed work exist before 1455(since it is from its look obviously a printed and not a hand made) from the Ottoman, when the first printed Bible was made in 1455 known as the Gutenberg Bible, and the first book ever published. Obviously the description is false! Sorry, I thought I had made that clear It's there to attract peoples attention so that they then read the propaganda and genocide denial bit. Whats printed looks like just an ordinary 19th C Armenian bible - you can by buy them for 10 or 20 dollars if you wanted to get hold of such a thing. A real printed Armenian bible from this period obviiously doesn't exist - and a real printed one from the 17th century would be worth at least 1000 dollars (I've seen one selling for that), but I don't think they are especially rare - not like hand written manuscripts for example. You could complain to ebay - but they never actually do anything about complaints regarding items for sale. And the person the complaint is addressed to can actually complaint against you for making the complaint! Direct action is the way to go, imho. Bid then don't pay. Ebay charges the guy a percentage fee of the 1000 dollars, he has to pay that or get banned by ebay, and he has to prove the buyer didn't pay for it to get the fee refunded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 If this bible proves to be genuine, I wonder what Armenian victim it was stolen from, just before they were executed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 Steve, I can not use my account, as I am using it to buy things. I am thinking what to do with that idiot. An alternative, unless someone want to do what you proposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 I am surprised there is so much worry about this insignificant case of propaganda. I bet one average denialist can do more damage on a not well known forum than this guy on ebay. How many people are really reading it? And how many days is it going to last? It is just not worth any effort given that there is not much that can be done. Besides, ebay is not the place to learn history or anything, this person has chose the most inappropriate place for his propaganda. So folks I would simply ignore it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 I am surprised there is so much worry about this insignificant case of propaganda. I bet one average denialist can do more damage on a not well known forum than this guy on ebay. How many people are really reading it? And how many days is it going to last? It is just not worth any effort given that there is not much that can be done. Besides, ebay is not the place to learn history or anything, this person has chose the most inappropriate place for his propaganda. So folks I would simply ignore it Sasun, it is more about the uses of eBay as a tool of propaganda... if we do nothing about such things, others will get inspired. As for a denialist doing dommages in a forum... no, where Domino can answer, no dommages can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Is there no one that is ready to do something? He could only write a letter to the guy and warn him. The person that placed a bid, the only thing he bought is from the seller... this is supsicious at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted June 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 The person that placed a bid, the only thing he bought is from the seller... this is supsicious at best. Yes, especially since the 3 things that he/she has bought are so different - a clock, a coin, and a leather jacket. It could be the seller just buying his own products when they are selling too cheaply. But, maybe not, I see that one of his leather jackets sold for even cheaper. Hehe: he probably has smelly feet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Statically speaking, for one to buy 3 different things from the same seller, and that those things are the only thing he bought, is the same as saying that one won the lottery jackpot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 Why not someone just direct him to this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 I'll do it if the idea doesn't meet disapproval. Giving it 24 hours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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