Roots Of Forum Members

[Nakharar]

I knew of Kermanig, just didn´t know its Roman origin. Ataturkians renamed it Kahramanmarash, heroic Marash...the only thing left is the ice cream...all the rest a disaster...nothing unexpected...

 

Is it that bad Boghos? I should have made a visit there while I was in Turkey last month. But I wouldn't be too surprised as they are keen to obliterate all that is of historic value and pretty to look at. The demolition gangs probably took care of the rest. <_< I don't know what they see in those ugly buildings and concrete slabs. I even prefer their slums. At least they are more humane. Strange what people do in the name of "progress" and "modernity".

[Arpa]

Since there seems to be so many Kiliketsis here, be it Marash, Musa Ler et al, it is almost worth starting a whole new thread.

Watch for KILIKIA. An all inclusive subject topic about Marash, Musa Ler and everything between and adjacent.

It may be hard to realize that Musa Ler is only an hour's drive (NY and Ca. standards) from Marash, and it has more in common than meets the eye as to language and culture.

To set one thing straight. It is Musa Ler and not Musa Dagh, and that, for the umpteenth time it has nothing to do with Moses/Movses. Sorry Mosjan for raining on your parade but Musa Ler was named so to mean the Mountain of Muses, Musayi Ler and it was named so many centuries before we had even heard of Moses/Moshe/Mousa/Movses.

 

PS. Mosjan, can you have your scribes/elves in Yerevan post Daniel Varuzhan's poem "MUSAYIN"?

Edited September 28, 2004 by Arpa

[Boghos]

Most informative is the book Marash, published in Boston, 1934 if I recall properly (I am at the office) among many things it discusses the peculiar Armenian dialect of Marash. There is a professor of Harvard whom with I corresponded in the past that was very much interested in this topic. The perils of affluence... Edited September 28, 2004 by Boghos

[Boghos]

For a reason I thought you were a Zeytountsi.

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The problem would be if you were Aybestsi .

[bellthecat]

It may be hard to realize that Musa Ler is only an hour's drive (NY and Ca. standards) from Marash, and it has more in common than meets the eye as to language and culture.

 

Sorry - no way (not even in the dreams of a california commuter ) It's at least 2 1/2 hours (to somewhere like Vakifli).

[Gor-Gor]

Hey, I'm new here - but I did want to add my background as well...

 

Maternal grandfather = Dikranagerd/Diyarbekir (Genocide survivor)

 

Maternal grandmother = [born in Aleppo to parents from] Dikranagerd/Diyarbekir

 

Paternal grandfather = [born in Aleppo to parents from] Kharpert/Harput

 

Paternal grandmother = Aleppo (her family was one of the "hin hays" -- they lived in Aleppo for centuries before the Genocide survivors came and joined them; but they mostly spoke Arabic)

[Arpa]

Paternal grandmother = Aleppo (her family was one of the "hin hays" -- they lived in Aleppo for centuries before the Genocide survivors came and joined them; but they mostly spoke Arabic)

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Very interesting.

Gor, do you know the history of the Armenians of Aleppo?

Tell us about it.

There may bits and pieces here and there but not a complete one. According to some they go back at least 2000 years and others that they are remnants of the Kilikian Kingdom.

What was your paternal grandmother's family name? Fattal, Sabbagh, Dabbagh or Hajjar etc.?

 

BTW. Bari ekar! Ahlanwa sahlan!

Edited October 17, 2004 by Arpa

[Gor-Gor]

I was actually trying to sift through the old posts in the forum trying to find some information about the Armenians of Aleppo.

 

Here is what I know, based on what my father (and mother) has told me. My grandmother didn't speak a word of Armenian, and I didn't speak Arabic, so we could hardly communicate. Besides, she passed away 2 years ago.

 

So this is my father's account.

 

He doesn't know where the "hin hays" (Arabic: Arman Adami; English: Old Armenians) came from or how long they had been in Aleppo. But, he points to the fact that the Armenian church in the old city of Aleppo (Karasoon Mangats) was built in the 11th or 12th century. I was actually baptized there; and have since visited it -- and it reminded me a great deal of the medieval churches I saw in Armenia's countryside. My dad also points out that the plaque on the church giving its date is in Arabic, and the gravestone of the clergymen are also all in Arabic. No Armenian script whatsoever, until the Genocide survivors came...

 

My (paternal) grandmother was born in Aleppo in 1922. Both of her parents were also born in Aleppo.

 

Her father did not speak Armenian, and his last name was "Janji" (from the Arabic word for "genie" -- I know the story behind this if you'd like to know it). But he was Armenian and considered himself as such.

 

Her mother actually did speak Armenian. Her last name was "Ajemian" (from the word Ajemi, which was often used in the region to refer to people from Iran). I learned this a few days ago, actually -- the Ajemian side actually came from Iran. (Imagine my surprise when I found out I had some Barsgahay in me! haha) However, my grandmother could account for at least 3 generations of Ajemians living in Aleppo. That means they must have come to Aleppo from Iran sometime in the early 1800s or before. What is interesting is that the Ajemians spoke Western Armenian -- having adapted to the dialect when they moved to Aleppo. This is the only evidence I have of Armenian being used in Aleppo prior to the Genocide survivors coming in. But maybe this is because they had Barsgahye roots -- but then from whom did they learn the Western dialect? There must have been some Armenian-speakers there. And the fact that they still kept the language for 3 generations means the force of assimilation was not that strong. But regardless, the reason I know they spoke Western Armenian is because by grandmother's sister (10 years older) spoke Western Armenian, having learned it from her mother. The reason my grandmother didn't learn Armenian was because her mother died when my grandmother was only 2 years old, so she only learned what her father spoke, which was Arabic.

 

A lot of my extended family on my father's side is "hin hay." And they usually married Armenian-speaking Genocide survivors. So even though the dominant language at home was Arabic, their children learned Armenian as a second language because they sent their kids to Armenian schools (but only until, say, the 3rd or 6th grade). So my father's side of the family is really very odd! LOL To this day, I don't know who speaks what language. I know they all speak Arabic and Arabic is the language of choice at family gatherings, but then suddenly they may begin to speak perfect Armenian, and I'm left to wonder "how does he/she know Armenian?!" haha

 

Anyway, there are lots of hin hays in my family, with a variety of last names, including Hajjar, Khabbaz, etc.

 

This is going off on a tangent, but for instance, my dad has 1 brother and 2 sisters. They all spoke Arabic at home because my grandma didn't speak Armenian. But, they decided to send the boys (including my father) to non-Armenian schools, and the girls to Armenian schools, until the 3rd and 6th grades. My father and his brother ended up marrying Armenian-speaking wives, so their kids (including me) speak Armenian. But the 2 girls ended up marrying "hin hays" -- so their children didn't speak Armenian. Even though the 2 girls learned Armenian at school, they struggle to speak it with me because of lack of practice, whereas my dad and uncle speak it with more ease. Some kind of irony, eh? The children of the 2 girls today don't speak Armenian, and almost all have married non-Armenians, sadly.

 

This is the origin of my obsession with Armenian language and assimilation...

Edited October 17, 2004 by Gor-Gor

[Gor-Gor]

Sorry about that...my mistake getting used to the board... Edited October 17, 2004 by Gor-Gor

[phantom22]

Given what I have already divulged in this forum, if I named the city we are from it would be very easy to discover my identity as all my grandparents came from the same city. Both my parents were born in that city and were small children at the time of the massacres. We think that our paternal grandfather's family had originated in Nor Julfa and had been transported there by Shah Abbas centuries ago along with other Armenian merchant families from Julfa. Edited June 30, 2006 by phantom22

[Sassun]

My father’s mother’s father: Sassun

My father’s mother’s mother: Haini

My father’s father’s mother & father: Haini

My mother’s father’s father: Haini

My mother’s father’s mother: Bolis/Constantinople

My mother’s mother’s father: Gesaria

My mother’s mother’s mother: Tekirdagh aka Rhaedestus/Rodosto

 

[Aubépine]

I'm familiar with all of these places except Haini. Where exactly is it situated?

[Sassun]

Haini is known as Hani now, and today is part of the Diyarbakir province. It is situationed north and a bit east of Diyarbakir (Dikranagerd). If you've heard of a village called Liçe, it's just west of it.

 

OK, here goes a map:

 

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i95/BChronicler/map.jpg

[Sassun]

By the way, there is a book in Armenian on Haini, the only that I know of, though not comprehensive by any means. It doesn't have, for example, any info or pics of my family. The book is mostly oriented towards the Protestant/Evangelical Armenians of Haini... But still an interesting read (I own it). I saw pics of Haini for the first time in my life (after looooong searches) a couple of months ago. Until then I had been searching for Haini and didn't get much, but then I looked up Hani, and was directed to the municipality page. It's a small town now. The page is in Turkish so I can't understand most of the stuff on there.

[Dave]

I had a few ancestors from Sassoun, Birejik, and Urfa from my mothers side, and from Yozghat and Urfa from my fathers side.

 

One of my ancestors, a young boy in 1915, was disguised as a girl by his parents, so that he wouldn't be butchered by the soldiers. I don't know any more details..

 

The one from Sassoun, a woman, helped the young Armenians during defense of Sassoun by preparing food, etc.

 

They all ended up in Lebanon. My grandfather was involved in the conflict between Armenians if the 1950s, and my father was involved in the defence of Bourj Hammoud (in an area called "Sis", also the name of the capital of Giligia), like many others who lived during the period of the Lebanese Civil War.

 

I was also born in Lebanon, but we came to Laval (near Montreal, in Canada's province of Quebec) when I was 5-6 years old.

[Anonymouse]

My dad's family is from Aintab.

 

My mom's side is from Afyongarahisar (sp?) and Nighdegh (sp?).

[DannyB]

By the way, there is a book in Armenian on Haini, the only that I know of, though not comprehensive by any means. It doesn't have, for example, any info or pics of my family. The book is mostly oriented towards the Protestant/Evangelical Armenians of Haini... But still an interesting read (I own it). I saw pics of Haini for the first time in my life (after looooong searches) a couple of months ago. Until then I had been searching for Haini and didn't get much, but then I looked up Hani, and was directed to the municipality page. It's a small town now. The page is in Turkish so I can't understand most of the stuff on there.

 

I'm DannyB and have a copy of the Haini book, my grandparents are from Haini. I can't read Armenian, and so I can't read the book! I've gotten about 20 pages translated, including the table of contents. But I would like to know more about it. Do you know of an English translation? Would you be willing?

[Arpa]

Bara-las Boghos, Bari-louys, Bari Or .

Bom dia, Buenos dias, Bon Giorno, Bon Jour, Good Day, Dobry den, Sabah oul Kheir

Good to see you. Long time no see.

Wait till you see this.

No. 46 by Arpa;

And I am sure you know that another name of Marash is Germanik, from the Roman colony of Germanica.

----

No. 49 by Boghos;

I knew of Kermanig, just didn´t know its Roman origin. Ataturkians renamed it Kahramanmarash, heroic Marash...the only thing left is the ice cream...all the rest a disaster...nothing unexpected…

From the book Marash;

It is recorded that of many villages and towns surrounding Marash, those to the north and west (Zeytoun, Frnouz etc.) were majority, or exclusively Armenian, some in the east were majority furkish. Here is the coup de grace. After the Big G the name was officially amended to “kahraman” Marash, assuming that it is an Arabic word to mean “heroic, victorious”. It is none other than a corruption of “Kermanik/Germanica”, kerman/kahraman?.

--

And to our Aintabtsi friend from Aleppo, the present day name of the home of his ancestors (gazi) Aintab. “ghazi/غا.ی” is an Arabic word that means “warrior” in particular a “warrior against ’infidels’ ”**, like a “crusader“?.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The term Ghazi (Arabic: غازى‎) may refer to:

Ghazi warriors who fought for Islam..

**

To see more about the meaning of “infidel”, see the following thread.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1554&hl=gavur

Adeste Fideles. Gather all you believers, Oh Come all ye Faithful.?

The name of the almost “past dictator” of Cuba is Fidel, ostensibly meaning loyal/faithful. Also the most common name given to our canine “best friends” is FIDO. http://embears.com/images/fido.jpg

Do tell us, who is an “fidel” and who the “infidel”

Edited July 18, 2009 by ArpA

[Boghos]

Dear Arpa, Good to see you too!

Was recently at Abril Bookstore in Glendale. Mr. Yeretzian has a copy of the reprint of the famous Marash book. I have one of the originals inherited from my grandfather...Copy asking price is $240.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Boghos

[Arpa]

Dear Arpa, Good to see you too!

Was recently at Abril Bookstore in Glendale. Mr. Yeretzian has a copy of the reprint of the famous Marash book. I have one of the originals inherited from my grandfather...Copy asking price is $240.

$240? Wow!!

I tried to find out what the original price in 1934 was, it is not listed. At the end of the book there is a list of "subscribers" ( I used "", since I don't quite understand the actual meaning. Assuming that the list being printed in the book, they should have "promised" to either purchase (some more than one copy as gifts to their friends and relatives) they would have done it ahead of the actual printing.

Some of the names I have known about, even some I have personally known, specially those from Aleppo, Boston and Troy-Albany.

My copy is showing signs of wear and tear as I have been using it more and more of late, I had to even try and reinforce the jacket and the spine.

Speaking of $240, it sounds like someone is treating it as a rare antique.

My brother has a copy of it too, we have inherited them from our respective parents and aunts.

Reminds me of the time, a decade or 2 ago I bought the Armenian Encyclopedia from a Glendale bookstore for $500 (used, as I can see some markings, highlights and comments at the margins, It is relatively in good shape though. Then, in Yerevan, at the Vernisage I saw a few of them, brand new in the original box, asking about $60, which one could haggle with. That was more tan 10 years ago. I wonder what they re asking for it now. I must tell this very emotional story. At the Vernisage I spotted Ajarian's Armtakan Bararan (Etymological Dictionary) that I had dreamed of having for so long. It is 4 volumes 700 pages each, hard covered. At the time, in America, any (trashy) book of the same size and construction would be selling for over $60, the vendor asked $20 for all 4 volumes. Silly me. Just for fun I bargained and had him come down to $15. It turned out two of the volumes were te same, he sent his son wherever to bring the missing volume, I gave him $5 as a good will gesture, and promised to come back. After a while I returned, the set was complete. I gave him a $20 bill (of course in those days the USD =over 500 drams, $20=10,000 dram), he reached in his pocket to give me the change, that is when I could not contain my emotion, I still cry every time I think about it.I could not even speak, all I could do was to embrace him and kiss him saying- "No, you silly, keep the change, I was bargaining with you just for fun".

During my last visit I tried to see if anyone was still selling them and how much they were asking, I saw none.

[Boghos]

$240? Wow!!

I tried to find out what the original price in 1934 was, it is not listed. At the end of the book there is a list of "subscribers" ( I used "", since I don't quite understand the actual meaning. Assuming that the list being printed in the book, they should have "promised" to either purchase (some more than one copy as gifts to their friends and relatives) they would have done it ahead of the actual printing.

Some of the names I have known about, even some I have personally known, specially those from Aleppo, Boston and Troy-Albany.

My copy is showing signs of wear and tear as I have been using it more and more of late, I had to even try and reinforce the jacket and the spine.

Speaking of $240, it sounds like someone is treating it as a rare antique.

My brother has a copy of it too, we have inherited them from our respective parents and aunts.

Reminds me of the time, a decade or 2 ago I bought the Armenian Encyclopedia from a Glendale bookstore for $500 (used, as I can see some markings, highlights and comments at the margins, It is relatively in good shape though. Then, in Yerevan, at the Vernisage I saw a few of them, brand new in the original box, asking about $60, which one could haggle with. That was more tan 10 years ago. I wonder what they re asking for it now. I must tell this very emotional story. At the Vernisage I spotted Ajarian's Armtakan Bararan (Etymological Dictionary) that I had dreamed of having for so long. It is 4 volumes 700 pages each, hard covered. At the time, in America, any (trashy) book of the same size and construction would be selling for over $60, the vendor asked $20 for all 4 volumes. Silly me. Just for fun I bargained and had him come down to $15. It turned out two of the volumes were te same, he sent his son wherever to bring the missing volume, I gave him $5 as a good will gesture, and promised to come back. After a while I returned, the set was complete. I gave him a $20 bill (of course in those days the USD =over 500 drams, $20=10,000 dram), he reached in his pocket to give me the change, that is when I could not contain my emotion, I still cry every time I think about it.I could not even speak, all I could do was to embrace him and kiss him saying- "No, you silly, keep the change, I was bargaining with you just for fun".

During my last visit I tried to see if anyone was still selling them and how much they were asking, I saw none.

 

Yes, dear Arpa, there are so many of us like that and unfortunately the bad apples seem to get most of the press. Mr. Apricot for example is a very quiet example of extreme generosity...anyway...

Now, $240 is for the copy of the original a very well done facsimile. Yeretzian tells me that the real thing goes for $400 or so. He didn't have the Lions of Marash which is an interesting book as well. I suspect that the otginal price, adjusted for inflation, was much higher than it costs today, which is not so unusual.

It is funny that people make fun of Marashtsis but I haven't seen anything close to the quality of that book about any other city in Giligia or anywhere else in Armenia for that matter.So, Arpa jan, I think you never wrote about that: what about the Armenians in N. New York?

Edited July 19, 2009 by Boghos

[MosJan]

Dear Arpa, Good to see you too!

Was recently at Abril Bookstore in Glendale. Mr. Yeretzian has a copy of the reprint of the famous Marash book. I have one of the originals inherited from my grandfather...Copy asking price is $240.

 

 

and you did not stop by to say hello

[Boghos]

Dearest Movses, When I posted it I realized the mistake I had made but I was with the kids and the wife and we were there for just a few hours. It was a very small part of a very long trip from San Diego to San Francisco. I am really sorry. Edited July 20, 2009 by Boghos

[Arpa]

Yes, dear Arpa, there are so many of us like that and unfortunately the bad apples seem to get most of the press. Mr. Apricot for example is a very quiet example of extreme generosity...anyway...

---

It is funny that people make fun of Marashtsis but I haven't seen anything close to the quality of that book about any other city in Giligia or anywhere else in Armenia for that matter.So, Arpa jan, I think you never wrote about that: what about the Armenians in N. New York?

Yes indeed Dear Boghos, I have never seen any other book so complete in History, ancient and modern, including the Mets Yeghern, geography, biographies, customs, language dialects… and more

Lions of Marash"";, I have a copy. It not only refers to the REAL LIONS of Marash but also to those Hittite Sculptures of Lions, now in the British Museum..

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/Images...plates*/13B.jpg

See availability;

http://www.almainc.org/store/index.php?mai...er=6&page=5

Yes, I will write about “üppa you ass/Upper US” I.e Upstate New York , Troy Albany association, but first about San Paolo/ San-bllo.

I will move the rest under a proper Thread. Watch for MHM, Marashi Hayrenaktsakan Mioutyun

Edited July 20, 2009 by ArpA

[Boghos]

Deal.