To All Turks And Turk Lovers

[Sasun]

A little reality check for the "tree hugging earth boys" within this forum:

 

Look, if you want your nationalistic rheotoric to be heard further in this forum you have got to cut name calling and talking down on the forumers.

 

At the dawn of the twenty-first century, Armenia is once again, threatened with annihilation.

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Aren't you strongly exaggerating someting?

[Sip]

A little reality check for the "tree hugging earth boys" within this forum: Regardless of how noble, kind, moral, ethical, sweet and cute you act, that does not mean that your surrounding neighbors are feeling compelled to adhere to such values. In other words: in a neighborhood like the southern Caucasus, the weak die young.

 

... so do the "seemingly strong". You have to be balanced to survive ... pick your battles wisely, your goals realistic, and the rhetoric to a minimum.

[Armenian Highlander]

Armenian Highlander, before using the word "psychotic" and "schizophrenic" you should check the meaning of those words and then having in mind the definitions proposed reread your posts. Don't take this as a personal attack but rather a friendly advice.

 

 

Your highly intelligent comment went right over my head. Can you please repeat what you just tried to state in more comprehensible terms?

 

Do you want me to post the "meaning of those words" just in case YOU don't know what it means.

[Armenian Highlander]

Aren't you strongly exaggerating someting?

 

 

The entire Middle East and the southern Caucasus has become an unstable powder keg within a global chess game. I pray to God that my claims are exaggerations, however, the current geo-political situation worldwide is unlike anything mankind has experienced throughout history. The fledgling state of Armenia today find herself within the epicenter of this geo-political mess.

 

I should not to be explaining all this to you.

 

Incidentally, I don't do name calling. I only "describe" certain types of people using appropriate and colorful terms.

[Sasun]

The entire Middle East and the southern Caucasus has become an unstable powder keg within a global chess game. I pray to God that my claims are exaggerations, however, the current geo-political situation worldwide is unlike anything mankind has experienced throughout history. The fledgling state of Armenia today find herself within the epicenter of this geo-political mess.

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But that's not a threat of annihilation to my mind, seems like an exaggeration to call what you are describing an annihilation threat directed at Armenia.

 

Incidentally, I don't do name calling. I only "describe" certain types of people using appropriate and colorful terms.

 

If you call names then it is name calling.

Edited September 9, 2004 by Sasun

[THOTH]

After turkey's demise those that are not deported or killed will beg to learn Greek or Armenian.

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Yeah - you sound like a genocidal Turk (same with Vigil & Armenain Highlander et al)....so what makes you any better? Don't you and your ilk understand - its people who think like you who we are against. People who actually think that it is OK to think about and promote the idea of killing (or even deporting) (innocent) people off of the lands they live on. You are so without a clue. You and your ilk obviously have no real understanding of the real world - of families and children - nor do you at all appreciate human life. And we are to listen to your ravings? Get a life. Try to get out and meet and understand people. And understand that there is a difference betwen people and governments and interest groups and such. You have obviously learned no lessons from our Genocide - and that is such a shame. And FYI - nationalism sucks - and it is only a perscription for destruction. You - like your Dashnak predessesors see everythign in such balck and white - and are willing to make (or in your case just advocate) outrageous things - things that make us (you) no better then the Turk you so despise...and though your rants here are basically meaningless - will never have any bearing on reality (as most folks aren't so naive & gullible and just plain stupid and nasty as you) - in the meantime they do provide amunition to Turks & apologists who can point to the ugly attitudes, racist hatefulness and such from your ilk and say - "see - its them racist Armenians"...and in a sense they are right...the only mistake is thinking that their valid critiscisms of you and your type apply to all Armenians - but that is a shame as you give them an "in" a "hook" as a weopon against Armenians. And while your concern over the survival of Armenia and Armenians is (perhaps) admirable - you don't at all realize how off base you are (and of course your response will be - "I'm not - you are" - etc - yeah - as if...anyway...). Yes - I think you guys a a clear detriment.

[DominO123]

Your highly intelligent comment went right over my head. Can you please repeat what you just tried to state in more comprehensible terms?

 

Do you want me to post the "meaning of those words" just in case YOU don't know what it means.

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Yeh! Yeh! You said something.

 

I used to lose my time with individuals such as yourself in daily basis. I must have been a fool.

 

I will just post one of the main symptoms of psychosis and schizophrenia and let others judge by themselves. I won't add more.

 

Delusions are some the most common of the schizophrenia symptoms. Delusions are ideas that you may believe in fervently but actually have no basis in fact. Some people with schizophrenia symptoms hold a single delusion, that seems to dominate their life, while others have many delusions.

Edited September 9, 2004 by Fadix

[Twilight Bark]

nationalism sucks - and it is only a perscription for destruction

No.

 

I know that everybody seems to have a different definition and understanding of that word, but it is nevertheless wrong to ascribe to nationalism, especially the Armenian kind, traits that belong to other "ism"s. Jingoism sucks. Chauvinism sucks. Nationalism doesn't have to. And Armenian nationalism has very little to answer for, and it is unfair to lump it with the virulent "nationalism" of other "nations", which often are nothing but jingoism and chauvinism.

 

As for whether some of the "contributors" on the forum are nationalists or simply jingoistic chauvinists, readers can make up their minds. And I sure don't want to enter the Dashnak zone.

 

In any case, please don't use the term nationalism carelessly, as the mainstream media often does and drills into the proles' heads. An enlightened and humanistic world view is not incompatible with true nationalism.

[DominO123]

Would it not be better to qualify this as "perverted patriotism" ?

 

I agree with you that "nationalism" is not the best word to use, more particularly when we refer to a diasporan Armenian that has never set foot in Armenia.

[THOTH]

No.

 

I know that everybody seems to have a different definition and understanding of that word, but it is nevertheless wrong to ascribe to nationalism, especially the Armenian kind, traits that belong to other "ism"s.  Jingoism sucks.  Chauvinism sucks.  Nationalism doesn't have to.  And Armenian nationalism has very little to answer for, and it is unfair to lump it with the virulent "nationalism" of other "nations", which often are nothing but jingoism and chauvinism.

 

As for whether some of the "contributors" on the forum are nationalists or simply jingoistic chauvinists, readers can make up their minds.  And I sure don't want to enter the Dashnak zone.

 

In any case, please don't use the term nationalism carelessly, as the mainstream media often does and drills into the proles' heads.  An enlightened and humanistic world view is not incompatible with true nationalism.

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I disagree - nationalism is perscription for disaster IMO - and I view nationalism as including jingoism, chauvanism...and (often) xenophobia...I do see it as a dirty word.

 

I think one can be a proponent of ones nation and people without being a "nationalist" per se - but perhaps this is once again a semantics issue...maybe we need a definition we can agree on.

 

And I understand why the need to focus on Armenia and its prosperity and survival...if being a "nationalist" is no more then this - then OK. But I can care about such and act to support such without being nationalistic per se...

 

I also know that some may say - of course he is against nationalism becaus ehe is some kind of trilateral liberal internationalist. Well...no. And I don't at all prescribe to American dominance in the world either. And I do not like the homoginization of culture and such. BUT...it is clear that we are moving - and have already moved pretty much inexpirably into an interconnected-interdependent world - and there is likely no turning back. And I think we must seek solutions and answers in this framework - not from purely a nationlaist perspective...even understanding - and accounting for the special circumstances and needs of a small and beleaguered national such as Armenia...

[Twilight Bark]

Thoth,

I don't think you are a nationalist either. In fact, since you don't try to raise your kids as Armenians, and don't speak the language or make an effort to learn it, it would not be unfair to say that you are not even Armenian. And there is nothing wrong with either of those (i.e. non-nationalist, non-Armenian). But nothing you said in your post precludes you from being a nationalist.

 

You are using the trivial, soundbite, mainstream-media version of "nationalism". Fine, in that case very few of us are "nationalists" in that sense. But English is a powerful language that allows for many shades, nuances, and implied contexts. It is an awful waste to take a perfectly fine, admirable worldview and equate with chauvinism, and then be left with no word to describe the feeling of belonging, and the affinity for ones' "group of belonging". It is an Orwellian trick. If there is no word to describe the thing, maybe people will stop thinking it, and would have a hard time advocating it. Think about it.

 

 

I disagree - nationalism is perscription for disaster IMO - and I view nationalism as including jingoism, chauvanism...and (often) xenophobia...I do see it as a dirty word.

 

I think one can be a proponent of ones nation and people without being a "nationalist" per se - but perhaps this is once again a semantics issue...maybe we need a definition we can agree on.

 

And I understand why the need to focus on Armenia and its prosperity and survival...if being a "nationalist" is no more then this - then OK. But I can care about such and act to support such without being nationalistic per se...

 

I also know that some may say - of course he is against nationalism becaus ehe is some kind of trilateral liberal internationalist. Well...no. And I don't at all prescribe to American dominance in the world either. And I do not like the homoginization of culture and such. BUT...it is clear that we are moving - and have already moved pretty much inexpirably into an interconnected-interdependent world - and there is likely no turning back. And I think we must seek solutions and answers in this framework - not from purely a nationlaist perspective...even understanding - and accounting for the special circumstances and needs of a small and beleaguered national such as Armenia...

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[ED]

Armenian nationalism is not a necessity but its a good way of self preservation, when countries, people, ethnic group such as Armenians get nationalistic approach to there patriotism there can be no threat to world peace, on contrary we all know what happens when Germans, Japanese, French, Americans, Turks etc…. get nationalistic. Especially now days when Armenian nation and country have difficult times nationalism plays a very positive and constrictive role.

 

Of course when I say nationalism I don’t mean views expressed here by some, more like what TB mentioned.

[THOTH]

hmmm

 

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/nationalism

 

 

Now this is interesting: George Orwell on Nationalism...

 

http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html

 

And in my first post I was going to say that I see nothign wrong with being patriotic - which is more in line with what TB is calling nationalism - IMO...then what you are claiming nationalism is - I agree with Orwell here...

 

And this bit in particualr: "A nationalist is one who thinks solely, or mainly, in terms of competitive prestige"

 

and

 

"The following are the principal characteristics of nationalist thought:

 

OBSESSION. (my note read long article for details)

INSTABILITY

INDIFFERENCE TO REALITY (interesting point in the latter description: "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

 

And OK - for balance - here is a more milqtoast (TB) defintion of nationalism (and quite a nice in-depth discussion...seemingly...haven't had tiome to read it all I must admit...)

 

http://www.free-definition.com/Nationalism.html

 

and another..(still see the negative here - what can I say...)

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nationalism

 

and with that I'll be going...will check in later/tommorow...

[Twilight Bark]

Thoth,

I'll have a deeper look at the links next week when I have time. I used to think exactly the same way as Orwell's notes suggest (and not because I learned it from them, or like to parrot them). And I would still like to. However, after seeing the word patriotism abused and made to represent things that had nothing to do with it, and then seeing the whole thing represented with a positive spin, I came to regard that word as indistinguishable from nationalism, as used in the mainstream. While I agree with Orwell's definitions in 1945, I cannot agree that those definitions are properly applied today. So, today, nationalism=patriotism, and both are used to mean whatever the author wants to. And frankly, since I have seen fake "patriotism" (the word used) in a militaristic context more often than "nationalism" in recent decades, I simply gave up on the old and venerable definition of "patriotism". It seems that if I want to bully a place, I am patriotic, and if they object to it they are being nationalistic. The terms have been stripped of meaning and nuance, or simplified to a primitive level. I don't know whom to blame for that, but American culture probably has something to do with it.

 

[Edit: In case it wasn't clear, by "Orwellian trick" I didn't mean Orwell the writer, but the language policy of the state in his novel "1984"]

Edited September 9, 2004 by Twilight Bark

[Twilight Bark]

Well, I did take a look at them.

 

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/nationalism and http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nationalism are basically the same, treat nationalism and patriotism as synonyms, and only one out of four definitions they give has the negative connotation of "feeling superior to others".

 

And http://www.free-definition.com/Nationalism.html says the "superiority" business is a misunderstanding of nationalism.

 

I already wrote a blurb on Orwell, so this is it. I really shouldn't spend more time here. Grrr.

[bellthecat]

Thoth's contempt of "nationalism" has the same roots as his contempt for "religion". It is nothing to do with the good and bad aspects of each, but simply because both seek to impose constraints and obligations on people (and make people feel more than mere individuals) - constraints and obligations which might interfere with Thoth's type of self-centered lifestyle.

[axel]

Hi TB,

 

Patriotism and Nationalism

 

As you've pointed out, the former has a positive connotation while the latter has a negative one yet they are commonly used to designate interchangeable realities in order to fit political agendas. Needless to say perversion of meaning is one of the preferred means of evil.

 

But leaving aside the actual use of the words, if we look at the reality of pro-national sentiment, we usually see two distinct attitudes (I think I already wrote something about that in a previous thread). One which is "natural" yet ethical, the other which is essentially ideological (ie based on "the ends justify the means" premise). The latter is what would fall into the category of "nationalism" as it appears in Europe in the twentieth century (fascism, nazism...) having roots in the european enlightenment movement while the fomer would rather be deemed "patriotism" and would correspond to a more traditional attitude quite unrelated to the deification of the state as in fascism or of the race as in nazism.

 

I suspect it may be the case that the denunciation of true patriotism as nationalism (which is ironically used by the ultra-nationalistic zionists to stigmatize any form of national resistance to their imperialistic ends, eg. Solzhenitsyn being referenced to as a russian ultra-nationalist!) has the actual side-effect of pushing would-be patriots towards ideological nationalism.

 

My personal view is that nationalism as an ideology (and as all ideologies) can be extremely nefarious and destructive on a spiritual level. In fact, if defeated, it may cause the entire (and irreversible!) collapse of the nation it has taken over, having destroyed in its followers the spiritual forces which are so fundamental to national survival in the long run. There are a number of examples in recent history.

[THOTH]

Axel - good points.

 

I too see the hypocrisy concerning claims of patriotism and such and in fact I've been somewhat cautiious in the past about this word. But again - I think it all boils down to semantics. Feeling pride & identity and such with ones nation (or in our case ethnicity and perhaps nation as well) is fine. And I understand how without such a nation as Armenia and a people as us are in major trouble - that it is a necessity for us...but I can't help but cringe at these people who call themselves nationalists and who espouse nationalism as an overiding ideology...they apear to me as just as ugly as those who have done so - always with great damage - in the past.

[axel]

I should emphasize that the choice shouldn't be between caricatural nationalism and hippie-style liberalism as some, esp. the advocates of the latter (eg Mr Baliozian), would want us to believe. There is room beyond those two fake and symbiotic alternatives for non-ideological yet uncompromising patriotism.

 

PS: ethical does not and should not mean naive.

[Twilight Bark]

Hi TB,

 

Patriotism and Nationalism

 

As you've pointed out, the former has a positive connotation while the latter has a negative one yet they are commonly used to designate interchangeable realities in order to fit political agendas. Needless to say perversion of meaning is one of the preferred means of evil.

 

But leaving aside the actual use of the words, if we look at the reality of pro-national sentiment, we usually see two distinct attitudes (I think I already wrote something about that in a previous thread). One which is "natural" yet ethical, the other which is essentially ideological (ie based on "the ends justify the means" premise). The latter is what would fall into the category of "nationalism" as it appears in Europe in the twentieth century (fascism, nazism...) having roots in the european enlightenment movement while the fomer would rather be deemed "patriotism" and would correspond to a more traditional attitude quite unrelated to the deification of the state as in fascism or of the race as in nazism.

Hi Axel,

Nice to see you back. As for the discussed subject, I submit that for most Armenians "nationalism" is of the "natural" kind as you put it, with the exception of the Dashnak brand, which is more reminiscent of the 19th century European kind. We have to accept neither the "19th century european" version of nationalism nor the contemporary Dashnak variety. We are a persistently un-theoretical people, and our kind of "nationalism" is in line with that.

 

However, seemingly (but only so) paradoxically, another reason I came to regard "patriotism" as less appropriate for Armenians (other than the fact that its meaning has been hijacked) is that it refers to a land, a country, something tangible to defend. While we are fortunate to once again have a country to defend and build up, for those in the diaspora a big part of the struggle is the defence of cultural identity and continuation, and takes on an unavoidably more abstract meaning that is perhaps better described as a sort of "nationalism". I hope I am making sense here.

 

Alright, gotta go.

TB

[axel]

However, seemingly (but only so) paradoxically, another reason I came to regard "patriotism" as less appropriate for Armenians (other than the fact that its meaning has been hijacked) is that it refers to a land, a country, something tangible to defend. While we are fortunate to once again have a country to defend and build up, for those in the diaspora a big part of the struggle is the defence of cultural identity and continuation, and takes on an unavoidably more abstract meaning that is perhaps better described as a sort of "nationalism". I hope I am making sense here

 

I guess it depends on the language you use

In french we also have the word patriotism ("patriotisme"), and the word "patrie" (fatherland). It is quite possible to think in terms of "patrie spirituelle" or "spiritual fatherland" (spiritual encompassing cultural, religious... aspects). But maybe this doesn't sound well to an english speaker's ears.

 

Anyway if we agree on the reality it designates...

 

I might be away for some time. Take care.

[DominO123]

I guess it depends on the language you use

In french we also have the word patriotism ("patriotisme"), and the word "patrie" (fatherland). It is quite possible to think in terms of "patrie spirituelle" or "spiritual fatherland" (spiritual encompassing cultural, religious... aspects). But maybe this doesn't sound well to an english speaker's ears. 

 

Anyway if we agree on the reality it designates...

 

I might be away for some time. Take care.

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I thought the contrary of what TB stated. I thought that "nationalism" has something to do with the land, and patriotic is more symbolic regarding our defense of "La Mère Patrie."(Motherland) I think that patriotic has more to do with "Motherland" and "nationalism" with Fatherland. My conception was since Armenia is not my motherland, and that I never set foot there... it could not be my nation, so I can not be a nationalist... on the other hand, since my motherland is where what is an "Armenian" was born, I can be a patriotic, in that that my motherland is historic Armenia, an Armenia that has a virtual frontier.

[Artsakh]

nationalism, patriotism, or whatever you want to name it, the meaning is true love for ones country, nation, history, culture, language, and music.

 

it doesn't matter where an armenian is born. if they cannot comprehend that they were born in a foreign land not because of their free will, but because evil forces drove us from our lands and caused us to flee, then you are not only not a patriot or nationalist, but you're not armenian.

 

in the words of Monte Melkonyans father: "a person cannot be a good citizen of any country unless they first and foremost recognize and respect their own roots."

[DominO123]

if they cannot comprehend that they were born in a foreign land not because of their free will, but because evil forces drove us from our lands and caused us to flee, then you are not only not a patriot or nationalist, but you're not armenian.

 

And from when are we born somewhere by our free will?

[Armenian Highlander]

And from when are we born somewhere by our free will?

 

Dear Fedex:

 

The following is what enker Artsakh tried to state: due to the Armenian Genocide, the entire Armenian population of Anatolia was displaced and were thus forced to live elsewhere. Therefore, you, my dear Fedex, were born outside of historic Armenia due to the "free will" that Turks exercised in expelling your relatives from their native lands.