skhara Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Exactly. This silly "theory" has almost certainly arose out of the neo-fascistic regime and ethos that exists in Croatia today. It's similar to the sort of nonsence we see coming out of societies like Azerbaijan. What silly theory? That Croats have roots in Iran? Or do you mean that it is silly that Croats disasociate themselves from Serbs, and that is what's silly? The map that TN posted I think is quite plausible, although I think that the people shown in the migration are the predecesors of both Serbs and Croats, not just Croats. During WWII the Croatian Ustashe had a policy of kill a 3rd, deport a 3rd, and convert a 3rd, in regards to Serbs. The converted 3rd they said would become Croats, so obviously they didn't think Serbs were any different from them if all it took to make a Croat out of a Serb was conversion to Catholisism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 What silly theory? That Croats have roots in Iran? Or do you mean that it is silly that Croats disasociate themselves from Serbs, and that is what's silly? The map that TN posted I think is quite plausible, although I think that the people shown in the migration are the predecesors of both Serbs and Croats, not just Croats. During WWII the Croatian Ustashe had a policy of kill a 3rd, deport a 3rd, and convert a 3rd, in regards to Serbs. The converted 3rd they said would become Croats, so obviously they didn't think Serbs were any different from them if all it took to make a Croat out of a Serb was conversion to Catholisism. I was using "silly" as a polite alternative to a number of far stronger words. If you want to wallow in that cesspit of racist Croat crap then sad on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Aren't Croats actually Serbs who happened to Catholics? The same goes for the Bosnians, who are Muslim Serbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Aren't Croats actually Serbs who happened to Catholics? The same goes for the Bosnians, who are Muslim Serbs. Most probably yes - just like the Azeri "Turks" are mostly anything but Turks. And as for the laughable "Bosniaks" - it's a pity that the artifical process of turning religious beliefs into ethnic groups didn't stop at Pakistan (an artificial creation made up of Punjabis, Afghanis and Kashmiris, who are entirely different ethnic groups but who just happened to be mostly Muslim). Did you know that in Britain you can get sent to jail for calling a Paki a Paki (but its OK to use it in India and Pakistan though!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Aren't Croats actually Serbs who happened to Catholics? The same goes for the Bosnians, who are Muslim Serbs. If you ask Croats they would deny that they're Serbs and claim that Serbs want to kill them all and convert to Orthodox Christianity. Serbs are horrified of converting to Catholicism and hate Muslims (Bosniaks, Turks) just like Armenians do, although they do admit that Armenians got the worst from Turks. Bosniaks are converted Serbs, Slavic people, they see Turks/Turkey as their refuge/protectors just like Serbs (as well as Armenians) regard (ed) Russia as their protector. Croats rely on Rome. Basically, the Balkans happens to be the division line between these religions, although personally I never regarded Orthodox Christianity and Catholicism to be much different from each other as a faith except the artifical political divide which I believe the clergy these days try to resolve and unite the churches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 I was using "silly" as a polite alternative to a number of far stronger words. If you want to wallow in that cesspit of racist Croat crap then sad on you. bellthecat, the things you say I agree with. I don't know where you got the idea that i'm wallowing in that cesspit of racist Croat crap. Didn't I say that i tought serbs and croats are the same people? Also, of all the balkan's people, i find myself most sympathetic to serbs. There has been a lot of nonsense and propaganda spread against them in the west. And they really got screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Armenian sympathy towards Serbs is laughable because to Serbs, Armenians are nothing but Armenoid freaks from kavkaz. The worst insult given to an Albanian by a Serb is Armenoid only then followed by Shiptar. Both Serbs and Croats could have ancient Iranian origins since neither names have any roots in Slavic but plenty in Iranian languages. The Hellenic and Roman texts support this as well. neither Croats or Serbs like to be associated in any shape or from with Iranians though for obvious reasons hence the popular theory among both people is that they originated in Boykiya (Ukraine). http://www.rastko.org.yu/antropologija/ljc...c_srbi_ukr.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Well, I have slightly different impressions, but maybe depends again to whom you are talking. Most Serbs are as informed as the Turks , but they have some very bright intellectuals. Just few months ago I had the opportunity to travel extensively around Serbia and to be honest it is a sorry state of affairs over there. Bulgaria, which previously was less developed, right now is at least decade ahead of Serbia. What also strikes is that when you cross the border between Bulgaria and Serbia you can't make any difference at all. However, Serbs believe that Bulgarians are Tatars and they are Slavic. The truth is that neither Bulgarians are Tatars nor Serbs are 100% Slavs. Well, few decades ago it wasn't a compliment to be a Slav, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 the sad thing is that neither Serbs nor Croats would ever have a thread like this about Armenians. Let's stop talkign about them and discuss our culture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Armenian sympathy towards Serbs is laughable because to Serbs, Armenians are nothing but Armenoid freaks from kavkaz. The worst insult given to an Albanian by a Serb is Armenoid only then followed by Shiptar. Perhaps that reflects more your personal experience and the "circle of friends" than anything worth generalizing. It may also have a lot to do with the irrational hatred Germans have towards the Serbs. My personal experience (admittedly not extensive) with Serbs is that they have a sincere feeling of solidarity with Armenians. Personally, I am more or less indifferent about the subject, and am speaking as an observer who is perturbed by the German hatred for Serbs and a probably incorrect generalization of Serb attitudes towards Armenians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 the sad thing is that neither Serbs nor Croats would ever have a thread like this about Armenians. That's a blessing. It means that we have not been put on the radar screen and then stoned and lynched, all in a politically safe way. It's not good to become "important" by any means other than cultural, scientific and athletic accomplishments, all of which we are lacking these days. It's good that there isn't much to talk about Armenians. Let's stop talkign about them and discuss our culture Yes. Agreed. But what culture are we producing these days? Please surprise me by something truly interesting, original, and Armenian. <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Armenian sympathy towards Serbs is laughable because to Serbs, Armenians are nothing but Armenoid freaks from kavkaz. The worst insult given to an Albanian by a Serb is Armenoid only then followed by Shiptar. Both Serbs and Croats could have ancient Iranian origins since neither names have any roots in Slavic but plenty in Iranian languages. The Hellenic and Roman texts support this as well. neither Croats or Serbs like to be associated in any shape or from with Iranians though for obvious reasons hence the popular theory among both people is that they originated in Boykiya (Ukraine). http://www.rastko.org.yu/antropologija/ljc...c_srbi_ukr.html Teutonic, have you read about the Armenoid crap on that racist forum called Stormfrong.org? That's the lowest of the low forum out there and I am sure the authorities are watching out for the people who post crap there. I would not trust or validate anything I read on that forum, and I feel extremely sad that some insecure Armenians are part of that forum. By the way, the word "slav" came from the word "slave" since most of the slavic tribes were Roman slaves. While Armenians were generals and statemen in the Roman empire those low-lives who look down on us were fricking SLAVES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 That's a blessing. It means that we have not been put on the radar screen and then stoned and lynched, all in a politically safe way. It's not good to become "important" by any means other than cultural, scientific and athletic accomplishments, all of which we are lacking these days. It's good that there isn't much to talk about Armenians. Yes. Agreed. But what culture are we producing these days? Please surprise me by something truly interesting, original, and Armenian. <_< we have produced a lot as a small nation, just the mere resilience of the Armenian nation to survive throughout centuries is quite unique. Perhaps the fact that we have never been conquerors, did not want to kill and rape other nations makes you feel small, not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 we have produced a lot as a small nation, just the mere resilience of the Armenian nation to survive throughout centuries is quite unique. Perhaps the fact that we have never been conquerors, did not want to kill and rape other nations makes you feel small, not sure. I was not referring to our uniqueness or resiliency. As admirable as they are, these qualities do not count as cultural production. And I did not say that we had the "competitive advantages" of the bully nations. If you are interested, you can search my posts for my thoughts on such subjects. If you do, you'll see that I largely agree with your sentiments. However, I still do not see anything in your post that pleasantly surprises me with an undiscovered Armenian gem that our Armenian culture produced recently. I am not saying that we can't, or even that we don't. But it is certain that an honest and hard look at our creativity or lack thereof would not be a bad thing. I don't think we should be satisfied with mediocrity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 Armenian sympathy towards Serbs is laughable because to Serbs, Armenians are nothing but Armenoid freaks from kavkaz. The worst insult given to an Albanian by a Serb is Armenoid only then followed by Shiptar. Both Serbs and Croats could have ancient Iranian origins since neither names have any roots in Slavic but plenty in Iranian languages. The Hellenic and Roman texts support this as well. neither Croats or Serbs like to be associated in any shape or from with Iranians though for obvious reasons hence the popular theory among both people is that they originated in Boykiya (Ukraine). http://www.rastko.org.yu/antropologija/ljc...c_srbi_ukr.html Didn't Armenian priests baptise these people? As well as Russians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 Didn't Armenian priests baptise these people? As well as Russians? Yeap, Bulgarians too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 I was not referring to our uniqueness or resiliency. As admirable as they are, these qualities do not count as cultural production. And I did not say that we had the "competitive advantages" of the bully nations. If you are interested, you can search my posts for my thoughts on such subjects. If you do, you'll see that I largely agree with your sentiments. However, I still do not see anything in your post that pleasantly surprises me with an undiscovered Armenian gem that our Armenian culture produced recently. I am not saying that we can't, or even that we don't. But it is certain that an honest and hard look at our creativity or lack thereof would not be a bad thing. I don't think we should be satisfied with mediocrity. Your argument is still very weak. Not sure what you're trying to prove, but we are a small nation hence you cannot expect a horde of cultural production springing up every year. Having said that, what have Slovaks, Lithuanians or Estonians produced that's worth turning head? Armenians are a diasporan nation, thus what is being produced outside of Armenia need to be accepted as Armenian cultural production. In the sphere of arts, we have produced Atom Egoyan. Well before Armenians got to know him through Ararat, Egoyan had already conquered the world of high class cinema. http://www.filmref.com/directors/directors.html when I checked this website I saw 2 world class Armenian directors listed (Egoyan, Paradjanov). I did not see Bulgarian, Georgian or any other ethnic group that outnumbers Armenians in fact. Arshil Gorky single-handedly started an art movement in America called Abstract Expressionism. Not a cultural production? Perhaps you will write back and say well what has been done yesterday or last year - my answer is that things happen slowly and again from a small nation like ours it's unrealistic to expect cultural gems every other day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 Your argument is still very weak. . . . Perhaps you will write back and say .... I wouldn't want this to turn into an exercise in winning an argument, or a game of polemic. I am glad to see that you are confident and optimistic about our performance, and I do not want to deflate it. As long as we are not complacent, and creativity permeates our daily lives, I don't care so much if we produce world-famous names or not (obviously I would like that, but ... ). My chagrin comes from what I perceive as the mediocrity and banality of Armenian cultural and intellectual life. I would be very glad to be entirely wrong in my perceptions, and have no interest in proving myself "right". It's a much bigger issue than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Twilight, firstly I am not trying to argue with you rather have an intellectual argument and if you restrain from that then you're one of the Armenians contributing to the so called "Armenian intellectual and cultural mediocrity" I should admit that I don't completely understand exactly what direction you are leaning when talking about this intellectual backlag. What you feel is your opinion and the reason for your feelings can be that you are primarily surrounded by immigrant Armenians who're not interested in intellectual pursuits or no Armenians for that matter. If you're referring to the lack of Armenian scholars discussing philosophy/existentialism then I'll say don't compare to some Western European culture because the Armenian experience is very different (I hope I don't have to explain how). In the former Soviet Union Armenians were the second after Russian Jews with Ph.D.s and Armenia was regarded as Soviet Sillicon Valley. And lastly, mediocrity is present in every culture - think of cheesy Hollywood movies in the American culture that make millions over just one weekend. At the same time the American economists/scientists sweep most Nobel prizes every year. So Americans mediocre or no? Your so called "fears" are nothing new, every nationality has that insecurity within, as well as every individual, after all too much pride is mere stupidity. Read Peter Balakians "Black Dog of Fate", he discusses some Armenian intellectuals from Polis who escaped to New York, I was surprised since I did not know that one of Anais Nin's best friends was an Armenian woman (his aunt). Perhaps if Turks gave us a little more chance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Twilight, firstly I am not trying to argue with you rather have an intellectual argument and if you restrain from that then you're one of the Armenians contributing to the so called "Armenian intellectual and cultural mediocrity" . . . . Have a nice day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 bellthecat, the things you say I agree with. I don't know where you got the idea that i'm wallowing in that cesspit of racist Croat crap. Didn't I say that i tought serbs and croats are the same people? Also, of all the balkan's people, i find myself most sympathetic to serbs. There has been a lot of nonsense and propaganda spread against them in the west. And they really got screwed. Sorry skhara, I misunderstod your point and thought that you were saying that you agreed with the theory in its entirety (in which the word "Serb" is never once mentioned) and objected to the word "silly" for that reason. It is a theory that could only arise from a culture that is trying to artificially disassociate itself from Serbia and invent a new history for itself. The key phrase to always look out for in all such nationalistic theories is the "according to historical sources" one - these "historical sources" are of course never specifically named! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted April 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 The kids I went to highschool with would always ask me if i'm croatian for some reason because they thought I looked like Vlade Divac even though he is Serbian. I'd explain that i'm Armenian, but they had no idea what an Armenian is. It is funy that you say this! I was keeping this to myself for quite some time but recently it became an obsession for certain people. I haven't watch ER, but every other person that I meet daily says that I'm absolute copy of Dr. Luka Kovatch. At the begining I thought that it is a subtle compliment, but one time I was offered a "celebrity" disscount in a department store. And yes Dr. Luka Kovatch from ER is from Croatia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 It is funy that you say this! I was keeping this to myself for quite some time but recently it became an obsession for certain people. I haven't watch ER, but every other person that I meet daily says that I'm absolute copy of Dr. Luka Kovatch. At the begining I thought that it is a subtle compliment, but one time I was offered a "celebrity" disscount in a department store. And yes Dr. Luka Kovatch from ER is from Croatia. Can I join you when you go to department store shopping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted April 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Can I join you when you go to department store shopping? Yes you can! Azat would at least offer a beer in return! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 nah no beer for you. you are a wealthy attorney and you look like that guy? I go kill myself now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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