Hélène Segara

[Vigil]

I wasn't camping your posts, self-proclaimed radical hero/theoretician.

 

When did I say I was a "hero"? Quit putting words in my mouth. I am as much of a hero as any member that posts on these boards. I respect everyone’s view, so, quit trying to make me out to be some “enemy of the state”.

 

I asked a valid question - what if an Armenian citizen of black ancestry could be a great contributor to the country? Such a person being ostracised because of their skin colour, or phenotype, or morphology, without being given a chance, is more Hitleresque than I would have expected.

 

There is no "Armenian" of "black ancestry", get it? Once a person is "black" they are "black" first and foremost. No, Stormig, it is not "Hitleresque". See, "skin color" makes a big difference and I do not understand why you have a hard time understanding this? Again, it seems to me like you are just trying to make up reasons and excuses to justify your decisions.

 

It was you that jumped into the whole "you try to convince yourselves" shenanigans.

 

Yeah, I am only getting to that conclusion because you are having a hard to respecting my views. I stated earlier that I can never accept a African of Armenian descent because being “black” automatically places them in another category. Furthermore, your stance supports globalization and assimilation. People like you are just a byproduct of the media and pop culture. I do not need to come here and find the same mundane rhetoric of how "we are all equal". Once differences among people diminish they have no reason to "preserve" their culture. They just adapt to their surrounds and accept assimilation. Furthermore, a "black" Armenian is “black” firs and “Armenian” second. I can use many examples that are close to home, so, quit resorting to possibilities of what can be.

 

BS. Answer my contentions before waving arms at "us" and the "mainstream" or what have you, crying foul at the damn liberals trying to make things out for what they are not - it became boring a long time ago. Then again you don't have to answer - just shut up if you're going to post 90% familiar stuff anyway - you, them, us, blah blah blah.

 

Listen, Stormig, a "black" man of Armenian descent might be integrated into the Armenian culture, but to base your argument on the possibility that he may one day "be a hero" is just ridiculous because for every "black hero" their are many more, for a lack of a better term, non heroes. Furthermore, a "white" Armenian will be more tolerated then a "black" Armenian because "Armenians" are semi "white". Now, if you are going to sit here and say "well, I know a black Armenian that is tolerated" I will use examples that are close to home. Let us not turn this debate into a “I have a bigger penis” grudge match.

 

Stormig, you can not "convince" me that a person of "black" skin is Armenian. If you want to accept a African of Armenian descent, you have my blessing, but do not try and force me to do the same.

[Stormig]

If you didn't self-style yourself a hero or theoretician, why do you regurgitate stuff until your arse-hole rips apart?

A black person's blackness coming first yet a white's coming second after his Armenian identity is in the eyes of the beholder, it is not empirical truth, so stuff it. This person has had no choice in what family they were born into and what family adopted them and what environment they grew in. Dissing this person is potential lost, at least as much potential lost as when one disses an Armenophile, if not more so. And this has nothing to do with globalisation and mass media - don't make me laugh. Speaking of mass, your accusations are so mass-produced, they reek of the "charms" of a charlatan. My posts weren't even addressed to you in particular and nobody here is crazy about you or what you have to say. So STFU and save that arse-hole some tear.

 

As far as assimilation goes, you don't see it is INTO the Armenian population versus the other way around.

[Vigil]

If you didn't self-style yourself a hero or theoretician, why do you regurgitate stuff until your arse-hole rips apart?

 

I do not "regurgitate" anything, instead, I am countering the disastrous effect of ideas like how "race" does not matter, when in fact it does.

 

A black person's blackness coming first yet a white's coming second after his Armenian identity is in the eyes of the beholder, it is not empirical truth, so stuff it.

 

Listen, Stormig, being "white" is more socially accepted as opposed to being "black". Being "black" already makes you a minority and, eventually, you develop a certain outlook on life that is much different then that of a "white" man or woman. When you are "white" you are not minority and rather are the majority, well except recently, but overall, the "western" world is "white". Now, my argument is not that being "black" holds a radically different life, but Armenians share racially similarties with "whites" as opposed to "blacks", which is why a Half Armenian that is part white is socially more tolerable then a Half Armenian that is part black.

 

Your problem is that you seem to think Armenians are non white, when in fact the majority are as white as any white man or woman. However, I would not want to see Armenians all of sudden marrying outside the ethnicity because it increases the chances of assimilation

 

My entire argument is that a black Armenian is not Armenian due to the fact physically he has no resemblence to a Armenian.

 

This person has had no choice in what family they were born into and what family adopted them and what environment they grew in.

 

What is your point? The parents had a choice did they not? See this is the type of stuff you have to think about when ever you make a decision like this. This goes back to my original statement of how every decision has its consequences. Why is it that you feel just because a black Armenian is half Hye, we as Armenians, have to accept them? I DO NOT CONSIDER A HALF BLACK ARMENIAN A ARMENIAN, why are you forcing me to accept them as a full fledged Armenian? It is simple because once I do it makes your decision more socially prudent. Intead of bowing to the will of the majority you are making the majority bow to your will.

 

Dissing this person is potential lost, at least as much potential lost as when one disses an Armenophile, if not more so. And this has nothing to do with globalisation and mass media - don't make me laugh.

 

No, the loss already occured when their parents decide to get married and have kids. Yes, this has everything to do wit hglobalization and the mass media because these are the only forces which influence that brand of thinking. When you see advertising that promotes interracial marriage you automatically feel that it is the "norm". However, I am not going to derail the thread and I have stated my reasons why I disgree. If you have a problem with this then by all means you can go find a "black man" and have as many children as you want, but the bottom line is that they will not be socially accepted by Armenians as opposed to a "white" Armenian.

 

Speaking of mass, your accusations are so mass-produced, they reek of the "charms" of a charlatan. My posts weren't even addressed to you in particular and nobody here is crazy about you or what you have to say. So STFU and save that arse-hole some tear.

 

Yeah, Stormig, you are right I am this crazy man with crazy ideas. The question is not if anyone is "crazy about me", but rather, the question is will a African of Armenain descent be accepted by the Armenian community? No, they will not be accepted.

 

As far as assimilation goes, you don't see it is INTO the Armenian population versus the other way around.

 

No, I do see it in the Armenian population, but their motives are supported partialy by Armenians like yourself that have made it socially prudent to marry outside the ethnicity. Somone like you, who makes it seem like interethnic and interracial marriage is ok, is the reason behind the assimilation.

 

Anyways, I am done with this thread. Stormig, in closing I have nothing against you and or your opinions, but again it seems to me like you are trying to convince yourself that it is ok.

Edited August 8, 2004 by Vigil

[groul]

Karen jan, that's your opinion but someone who is 90% Armenian and 10% black, asian or semitic is NOT an Armenian and can NEVER be an Armenian even if he/she speaks Armenian and has an Armenian name.

 

So you want to say that my son, whose grand-grandfather was a Jew is now a Jew?

)))

[Teutonic Knight]

So you want to say that my son, whose grand-grandfather was a Jew is now a Jew?

)))

I said semitic, I had Arabs in mind mostly not the very few remaining semitic jews. Since when are jews a part of any race? They come in all shapes and colors.

Having an Ashkhenazi grandfather is not a problem as long as the child identifies himself as an Armenian only.

[groul]

Vigil

 

Just one example: Pushkin, the most famous Russian poet who changed the Russian literature forever, was 25% black.

 

It is useless, IMHO, to fight mixed marriages and mistreat the kids from mixed families, rather it is much more effective to create appropriate assimilation techniques and follow them.

 

Teutonic Knight

 

Oh, great. I am glad my son can continue playing his favourite gnam-mer-sary-turqeric-azatem game

[Anileve]

For a moment there I thought I entered a wrong thread by mistake but alas it is not “What is an Armenian” thread after all.

 

Karen jan, huysovem vor yerjanikes Yerevanum. We never finished our argument by the way.

 

Virgil you are still riding that chariot of “Armenianness” on the wheels of Turk-hatred carrying a badge of moral righteousness with Teutonic Knight as your sidekick, watch that it doesn’t turn over one of these days.

[sev-mard]

Being black, and blackness sure does get a lot of post time in this Armenian forum. Kind of makes a brother feel welcome I guess...

 

I of course am not crass nor stupid enough to get involved in decisions amongst the Hye community and itself. I'll just say this, if someone isn't within your sphere of ideology, why continue to badger each other? Just get with like minded people and motivate toward the goals you want. That's to both sides of the arguement. It goes like this back and forth all the time and reminds me of numerous converations I've had within my own communities. Eventually you have to deal with those who think like you and then get things done. Trying to go back and forth changing each other's minds rarely gets things done.

 

While I know the Armenian side of this discussion will be to preserve the numbers of Hyer across the globe, I can gurantee you that people who are mixed with Hyes want to be accepted and loved as people first. And going out of one's way to remove them from the Diaspora will do exactly that and most likely burgeon ill feelings. I have half black and white/latin/etc friends who had bad experiences with their black sides of the family and as a result they have grown to hate parts of themselves and bad mouth blacks regardless of their apprearance(which is very black looking most of the times).

 

So if it's a dead issue and someone has crossed the cultural lines and had progeny with some of black, or other odar-ness, being that Hyes are low in number, would you want to go out of your way to alieanate people even more?

 

And please, don't start, I'm not a champion for these types of unions nor am I trying to sabotage Armenianism. I'm just going with what I'm involved in and speaking on the situation with you all. I do not promote invasion of Armenians by odars, I could care less. I'm doing what I'm doing, and joining this discussion. With that being said I'm interested in your answers....

 

Peace

Edited August 11, 2004 by sev-mard

[sev-mard]

For a moment there I thought I entered a wrong thread by mistake but alas it is not “What is an Armenian” thread after all.

I agree...I thought the same thing...

[Anileve]

Armenianism.

I haven't thought of it, good one. Gosh darnit, the damn thing somehow transformed into some sort of a political movement with pompous and self-righteous doctrines.

 

You are too smart to get involved into these pointless discussions. I'd rather watch birds fight over a bread crumb then listen to a broken record of "Armenianism". I mean if I was told that I am not Armenian (having that heritage), but an American with an Armenian heritage , although I don't see how it's different from saying the apple is green or that's a green apple, for some it has a critical meaning that implies two different entities. Sevulik jan, majority of us adore you, so gently flick the boogers aside.

[groul]

[offtop]

 

Karen jan, huysovem vor yerjanikes Yerevanum. We never finished our argument by the way.

Our argument was one of those neverending ones.

 

Yep, I am fine here, thanx

I miss NYC pizza though.

 

[/offtop]

Edited August 11, 2004 by groul

[Anileve]

Our argument was one of those neverending ones.

Well that is because you chose to disagree with me in everything, would have you agreed with everything our argument would have ended quickly. In other words, du es meghavor eli! Asa "Eva, chishtes asum." - yev ameninch lav klini.

 

I miss NYC pizza though.

 

It's a deal, I'll send you some pizza with Alec and you send me some real Armenian xorovats back. Post some photos of Yerevan will ya? In the following thread http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=8596

 

Back to the topic, Helene Segara has a few songs worth listening to.

Edited August 11, 2004 by anileve

[kakachik77]

And people like you are only diasporans who always pontificate ad nauseam like they know crap when they can't even spell "your" for weeks on end.

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well said Stormig

 

who are you, Vigil, to DEFINE who is Armenian or not. People like you make me forget my own Armenianness.

[kakachik77]

VIGIL=RACIST=CONFUSED INDIVIDUAL