Birthright Armenia

[Teutonic Knight]

TK do you think that people who spend days and months and even years talking to their kin (visitng Armenia, spreading info etc.) about everything in the world need patriotic or technical encouragement to go back?

Yes.

Posting on a public forum doesn't entitle you to any special cookie points.

[Armen]

And you still hold a subtle fondness for me deep down inside behind that emotional barricade of yours.

That doesn't matter Ani. For my kind of people you're an energy vampire.

 

Actually, this last dramatic turn is making this discussion very confusing.

[Anileve]

Stick to being an American with Armenian heritage.

Thanks, I will take that into account. And to think that all this time I've been thinking that I was someone else, with just one post you have redefined my nationality. A million thanks. Looks like I have to discard my T-Shirt: "I am Armenian and I am proud".

[Teutonic Knight]

Thanks, I will take that into account. And to think that all this time I've been thinking that I was someone else, with just one post you have redefined my nationality. A million thanks. Looks like I have to discard my T-Shirt: "I am Armenian and I am proud".

Good idea, since you're an American not Armenian.

Identifying yourself as an Armenian instead of someone simply with Armenian heritage also displays disloyalty to the country of your citizenship, moreso if you were born here.

[Anileve]

Good idea, since you're an American not Armenian.

Identifying yourself as an Armenian instead of someone simply with Armenian heritage also displays disloyalty to the country of your citizenship, moreso if you were born here.

 

This discussion has just gotten very silly. Think what you will, as a human you have been given the gift of an opinion, even if it entails dictating others what they should or shouldn't be. However one thing to remember is that the opinion is limited to your personal view and doesn't influence other peoples' views of themselves, which is what really matters.

Edited July 30, 2004 by anileve

[Armen]

Yes.

Posting on a public forum doesn't entitle you to any special cookie points.

TK, even East Germans are leaving Germany, you want Armenians to go back?

[Teutonic Knight]

TK, even East Germans are leaving Germany, you want Armenians to go back?

There's no such thing as an East German. Hell that's not even used a geographic designation anymore. I never heard about any mass exodus from Germany. There aren't so many turds and kurds yet there. Germany is going to be extinct in a few decades anyway. German women want to remain single while the native population keeps dropping.

Anyhow, don't go offtopic.

[Armen]

So, you're German, right? Well, why is Germany failing to unite EU. That would help not only to realize the different goals you have stated in different threads of this forum, but also would tremendously help Armenia. I'll tell you why. You're not willing to sacrifice. And this is the same problem Armenians have.

[Teutonic Knight]

So, you're German, right? Well, why is Germany failing to unite EU. That would help not only to realize the different goals you have stated in different threads of this forum, but also would tremendously help Armenia. I'll tell you why. You're not willing to sacrifice. And this is the same problem Armenians have.

Not quite.

You see I have German as well as other Germanic heritage but i'm American first and foremost. Just happen to be an Armenophile.

I have my problems with both Germany and the EU which is a whole different topic so lets not go there in this thread. Feel free to make a thread about the EU and i'll jump right in.

Armenia needs a lot more sacrificing now from both Armenians and those who wish to see Armenia back on its two feet again after 543 years of total occupation than any other European nation. I chose Armenia with my own free will.

[Armen]

Feel free to make a thread about the EU and i'll jump right in.

 

Here: A moment of truth: US-EU relations

 

Armenia needs a lot more sacrificing now from both Armenians and those who wish to see Armenia back on its two feet again after 543 years of total occupation than any other European nation. I chose Armenia with my own free will.

 

I can assure you Armenians need just one small sparkle of hope to go back. It is just that the governement is not giving even that small sparkle.

[Nakharar]

The harsh truth is that there is no one Armenia or Armenians anymore, but several concepts of Armenians. The way we define ourselves should be a point in case: American Armenians, Lebanese Armenians, etc. We have become the opposite of "E Pluribus Unum". Many out of one. Whatever we say about the Armenian identity will only reflect our own subjective criteria.

[Armen]

Jews recreated Israel after 2000 years. Can you immagine how idealist these people were for 2000 years? And yet they are often called the most materialistic of all realists.

[Teutonic Knight]

The harsh truth is that there is no one Armenia or Armenians anymore, but several concepts of Armenians. The way we define ourselves should be a point in case: American Armenians, Lebanese Armenians, etc. We have become the opposite of "E Pluribus Unum". Many out of one. Whatever we say about the Armenian identity will only reflect our own subjective criteria.

Give it a few more years.

Those are artificial divisons which came about as a result of five centuries of occupation, Holocaust and deportation from your native land.

Unity takes time. The more people work towards this goal, the sooner will it become a reality.

[Stormig]

It struck me interesting how all varieties of discussions can start off on one topic and end up talking about virginity (whose trend seems to have come to an abrupt end when someone got a good slapping from someone they would least have expected it from, no need to dredge that part) or what Armenians should do or say or whether they should do or say anything. And it is furthermore all the more peculiar that there is no-one to present a perspective based on experience and even if they do have the experience, they don't share it. It's all theory. I'm not dissing anyone, but this is how I see the trend. I suppose people doing the real thing are too busy doing it to discuss at length the benefits and the cons and euphemisms and all that. A pity, as it would have been interesting and informative.

[Armen]

http://www.cilicia.com/armo_life-log.html

 

Check the link Stormy. It's real people's real experience in Armenia. Most of them are expats.

[Twilight Bark]

You are absolutely right, Armenians have this tendency which is a tragicomic one. Armenians are the original Anarchists in the scientific sense of the term.

Good observations Boghos, above and your previous post. Reasoned and balanced as usual. Of course such traits make for boring reading; nothing to get one excited and outraged.

 

I would like to point out, though, that we need not necessarily regard our "natural anarchism" and individualism as something to cure. The world civilization is headed in that direction, despite fits and starts, and the best efforts of governments to turn their populations into malleable automatons. I rather think it is something we need to respect. And by respect I mean having a form of democracy that allows such libertarian traits to be cultivated rather than get in the way. That is why the Armenian democracy needs to be as "direct" as possible, while minimizing "politics of personality". It would be a shame to somehow roll back the evolved Armenian psyche to conform to the stupid, personality driven (not to mention "cult of personality" kind found in banana republics) level of politics. What needs to be reformed is not how Armenians think. On the contrary, a political system that respects the national character and allows it to flourish needs to be instituted. In my opinion, the less "I am your leader" type politics, the better it will fit. And that basically means "direct democracy" of some sort, where a multitude of "leaders" (advocating alternative ways of action), depending on the subject of of discussion would emerge and fade to the background.

[Vigil]

So when are you relocating there? I have a letter that needs to be taken there, naturally with a few dollars which might improve an economic position of a struggling family. The help I wouldn't be able to offer working in Armenia.

 

Anileve, when did I ever state that "I am moving to Armenia"? You know as well as I do most of the adults in the Armenian communities are opposed to this idea. The Armenian youth is ridiculed and laughed at when they even mention the idea in public, while at the same time these "adults" want the next generation to remain Armenian in societies that oppose ethnocentrism, nationalism, and isolation. In America it is much more accepted to "assimilate" into the main stream. It is a uphill battle to maintain our roots in nations that are deliberately chopping at them. How can you remain Armenian when the media pushes for globalization and, ultimately, assimilation? You can not remain Armenian, which is why Armenians are going to go extinct, unless, drastic steps are taken by our leadership.

 

The Diaspora wants to create little Armenian ghettos worldwide rather then work towards strengthening their nation. What is the point of me going to protest the actions of another government towards my people, when my people might not have a country in the future? There is no point, unless, Armenians maintain and improve Armenia. The entire idea of protesting for a nation that you are never going to move back to is a joke and a waste of time.

 

The fact of the matter is that there are no more then eight million Armenians worldwide, six million in the Diaspora, while the remaining two million live in Armenia. Like I stated earlier, if you add a negative birthrate on top of those factors, Armenians, are headed for extinction.

 

I am just stating that "Birthright" the program will not be the "magical" wonder drug that will "connect" Armenians to Armenia. The Diaspora has to maintain Armenia not because they feel that they are obligated to, but rather, because they want to. I do not have to travel to Armenia in order to connect with her, when the Diaspora can not even get along with one another.

 

What bothers me the most is the fact that the recent bad publicity is due to the actions of Armenians.

 

Today, I was having lunch with my Armenian (Paskahye) and Hispanic co-workers. We were having a good time until my Armenian co-worker began talking about how all Armenians have been into fraudulent activities. Not surprisingly, my Hispanic co-worker agreed with him.

 

Now, you know what is going to happen? That Hispanic co-worker is going to connect a negative co-notation with any Armenian he sees driving a nice car or living in big home. Eventually, the very same Armenian that promoted these ideas will find himself being alienated by the very same American that he felt he was equal to.

 

It gets better; later on he told that Hispanic co-worker of mine that Paskahyes are the equivalent of Spaniards, while Armenians from Armenia are the equivalent of Mexicans. Mexicans and Spaniards are culturally different and, just because, they speak Spanish it does not mean that they are related.

 

Armenians are Armenian regardless of where they live. They are part of the same culture, ethnicity, and nationality. An Armenian has only one point of origin, Armenia. To state that Armenians and the Diaspora are two different entities is inconsistent.

 

Anyways, this is the flat out stupid stuff Armenians do in the name of "progression". They resort to calling one another "Armos", degrading their fellow Armenian, and promote segregation just so they can assimilate more quickly.

 

Anileve, the bottom line is that Armenians are going extinct. No, pseudo-intellectual argument is going to convince me otherwise and unless we get are act together this will be our fate.

Edited July 31, 2004 by Vigil

[Boghos]

Good observations Boghos, above and your previous post. Reasoned and balanced as usual. Of course such traits make for boring reading; nothing to get one excited and outraged.

 

I would like to point out, though, that we need not necessarily regard our "natural anarchism" and individualism as something to cure. The world civilization is headed in that direction, despite fits and starts, and the best efforts of governments to turn their populations into malleable automatons. I rather think it is something we need to respect. And by respect I mean having a form of democracy that allows such libertarian traits to be cultivated rather than get in the way. That is why the Armenian democracy needs to be as "direct" as possible, while minimizing "politics of personality". It would be a shame to somehow roll back the evolved Armenian psyche to conform to the stupid, personality driven (not to mention "cult of personality" kind found in banana republics) level of politics. What needs to be reformed is not how Armenians think. On the contrary, a political system that respects the national character and allows it to flourish needs to be instituted. In my opinion, the less "I am your leader" type politics, the better it will fit. And that basically means "direct democracy" of some sort, where a multitude of "leaders" (advocating alternative ways of action), depending on the subject of of discussion would emerge and fade to the background.

Hello TB,

 

A few months back I read "The irrepressible Rothbard" and I had already gone through "Man, Economy and State" and a compilation of Libertarian thought whose name escapes me. I have great sympathy for these ideas.

 

Anarchism in the modes discussed by Bakunin and others is something I studied a long time ago, so I was thinking why I chose "anarchists" rather than "libertarians" when it is quite obvious in my mind that the second alternative is better. I think it happened because libertarian thought, and more probably its Rothbardian version, have a certain sombre feeling to it that I do not associate with Armenians at all.

 

Nice to see you around.

[Nakharar]

Jews recreated Israel after 2000 years. Can you imagine how idealist these people were for 2000 years? And yet they are often called the most materialistic of all realists.

 

It had to do more with having the right backers (Britain and the United States) at the most opportune period of their history and having the sympathy of the whole world, rather than mere idealism. Of course the religious ethos helped preserve a few remnants of their identity. But what I find even more baffling is that these people who have very little in common with each other and the land constructed an identity and recreated a dead language that hasn't been spoken for at least 2500 years since the Babylonian Exile.

Our exile is more recent and we have the tools to reconstruct that which we have lost, but somehow we are lacking something.

[groul]

Vayri7X,

 

I know people from Birthright Armenia personally. This year I spent some time with the interns from the U.S. here in Armenia.

 

(Actually that group was from NY ASA, but NY ASA was collaborating with BRA. There were and still there are interns from other organizations too)

 

So let me know what details about B.R.A. you want to know.

 

P.S. 2 of the students from NY ASA participating in this year's BRA program had there internship in Cardiological Hospital in Nork Marash, Yerevan. Here are some photos I took during the heart surgery they were watching

 

http://www.armenianhouse.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1880

 

Vigil

 

For instance, the borders to Turkey must be opened for both countries to progress, but in order for this to happen the Diaspora must drop genocide claims.

 

I strongly oppose opening the borders with Turkey, though I live in Armenia. The main problem is not the recognition of Genocide, but actually the flow of cheap and relatively high-quality goods made in Turkey to Armenian market. Local manufacturers hardly compete with them even now with the borders closed, and they will not have a single chance to survive if importing Turkish goods becomes even easer (hence cheaper).

 

Also, I don't like the idea of Turkish businessmen (and how many of them will actually be businessmen and not the intelligence officers?) browsing uncontrolled in Armenia.

[Boghos]

One of the most serious misconceptions about the border opening issue has to do with the possible overwhelming flood of Turkish goods. It already happens but in a smaller scale, through Georgia and hence at higher prices. Let´s face it , a country the size of Armenia cannot be an industrial powerhouse nor produce the wide array of goods that economies that have scale can, at least not at competitive prices.

Armenia could for example focus on niche markets, very high quality products, special crops, organic products and of course, services. Small economies have to be open almost by definition and frankly there is no reason to fear the Turk, I honestly believe that this would be a tremendous boost to the Armenian economy in the mid-run. In the beginning there might be some pain but over time , as I believe in our people industrious and creative nature, it will be a major plus.

[Armen]

I would like to point out, though, that we need not necessarily regard our "natural anarchism" and individualism as something to cure. The world civilization is headed in that direction, despite fits and starts, and the best efforts of governments to turn their populations into malleable automatons. I rather think it is something we need to respect. And by respect I mean having a form of democracy that allows such libertarian traits to be cultivated rather than get in the way. That is why the Armenian democracy needs to be as "direct" as possible, while minimizing "politics of personality". It would be a shame to somehow roll back the evolved Armenian psyche to conform to the stupid, personality driven (not to mention "cult of personality" kind found in banana republics) level of politics. What needs to be reformed is not how Armenians think. On the contrary, a political system that respects the national character and allows it to flourish needs to be instituted. In my opinion, the less "I am your leader" type politics, the better it will fit. And that basically means "direct democracy" of some sort, where a multitude of "leaders" (advocating alternative ways of action), depending on the subject of of discussion would emerge and fade to the background.

TB,

 

This piece was a perfect reflection of the reason of our failure to create a state.

Interestingly enough you presented the fundamental points that need to be changed in Armenian society as something that should not be changed.

 

Second, civilization is heading in different directions. China and Russia are trying to create a very different human compared to that of the West.

 

Every state needs an amount of coersion. If we refuse coersion we're basically refusing to have a state. Moreover, our refusal to have Armenians as our leaders has always brought to the result of having foreign leaders, meaning we have been constatly conquered because of that. Although you're not refusing to have a group of weak leaders in your post, their powers are going to be so vague that they will not be able to govern. Armenia is situated in a dangerous region and needs a normal state with a normal honest leader.

[Aaron]

Since we did deviate from the original tpoic about birthright armenia, i'll give an opinion on the opening of the turkish border. Yes, the opening of the border could have a negative impact on armenian economy although there is no escape from that, sooner or later Armenia will have to open to all of the world. In my eyes it is not an excuse to keep the border close. The genocide issue is not in my eyes a major obstacle to the reopening of the border, i have never met an armenian who was against the reopening of that border (even in the more "nationalist" circles, in diaspora or armenia).

 

From reading many posts in this topic and in previous sections as well i ask myself how the following misconception occured: the people of armenia willing to open the border and everything being ready except for some stubborn, unrealistic and selfish diaspora armenians who don't want that to happen. This is obviously not true. Turkey does not want that border open because:

 

- It hurts Armenia in many ways

- It helps Azerbaijan in a concrete manner (by weakening its enemy) as well as from a psychological support view

- It does not at all go against Turkey's interests (economic, political, etc), except in the hypothetical case of having the EU asking for a mandatory opening for possible membership

 

That is it, Turkey does not need Armenia (a poor market of 2 million people) just like it does not need Madagascar or Burkina Faso. And to their senseless statements about "The relations between Armenia and Turkey might deteriorate if armenians don't lay down genocide recognition claims" the obvious answer is that there are unfortunately no relations at all and that things could not get worse anyways.

 

Boghos, I read your post from july 30 about the armenians not being one, the diaspora having many faces and not acting as a single entity, the non existence of such a homogenous thing called diaspora and i totally agree, its very true, i had felt this but you just put it in words. The last sentence of your post about karabaghtsis being the most influential diasporans in armenia was a bit shocking in the sense that you consider karabagh not a part of armenia (and i'm aware it isn't on paper!). This is totally against what armenians (of the world and from any political party or religious group) have believed in since 1988.

 

Have a good day

A.

[Boghos]

Boghos, I read your post from july 30 about the armenians not being one, the diaspora having many faces and not acting as a single entity, the non existence of such a homogenous thing called diaspora and i totally agree, its very true, i had felt this but you just put it in words. The last sentence of your post about karabaghtsis being the most influential diasporans in armenia was a bit shocking in the sense that you consider karabagh not a part of armenia (and i'm aware it isn't on paper!). This is totally against what armenians (of the world and from any political party or religious group) have believed in since 1988.

 

Have a good day

A.

Hello Aaron,

 

Some people feel that Armenia´s agenda has been heavily influenced by Karabagh´s agenda and that these are not necessarily the same. I know that this is very controversial and for the time being I do not intend to discuss this issue in any length.

 

The extent that the Karabaghtsis are part of the diaspora or an integral part of Armenia is up to debate. I tend to group it with the diaspora since that community was very connected with Baku in Soviet times even if there was some communication with Armenia proper. The Alkhakalak Armenians are probably more connected to Armenia than Karabagh ever was, for example. But honestly I thnk this is more of an academic question than aything else, except for how Armenian politics has been conducted in the past few years. Maybe Nakhijevan is to Azerbaijan as Karabagh is to Armenia in that sense.

[Twilight Bark]

TB,

 

This piece was a perfect reflection of the reason of our failure to create a state.

Interestingly enough you presented the fundamental points that need to be changed in Armenian society as something that should not be changed.

 

Second, civilization is heading in different directions. China and Russia are trying to create a very different human compared to that of the West.

 

Every state needs an amount of coersion. If we refuse coersion we're basically refusing to have a state. Moreover, our refusal to have Armenians as our leaders has always brought to the result of having foreign leaders, meaning we have been constatly conquered because of that. Although you're not refusing to have a group of weak leaders in your post, their powers are going to be so vague that they will not be able to govern. Armenia is situated in a dangerous region and needs a normal state with a normal honest leader.

* The reasons for our historical lack of success in state creation may be less relevant today. Or more pointedly, our usual diagnosis as well as the oft-proposed "cures" may be wrong as well. Let's focus on the conditions and requirements of today.

 

* Societies change very rarely by government fiat. Russian and Chinese governments are good examples of how resistant a culture is to the government "vision". Russians or other ex-soviets have not become happy-go-lucky selfless collective farmers. The entrepreneurial and materialistic Chinese culture appears remarkably intact after decades of extremely heavyhanded communist government. In any case, imposing an unnatural system of government simply forces people to emigrate (if they can; and these days they can). That happened in Ottoman times, and it is happening today. If you want to draw lessons from history, draw that lesson.

 

* Equating coersion and state is not only tasteless. It is wrong. Or rather, there is no logical reason for it to remain true. The state shoud, and could, be the organized expression of the collective compromises individuals make in order to balance their freedoms, which form the fundamental currency of human existence. Exceeding the minimum necessary "compromise" (I guess that corresponds to the "coersion" bit in your terminology) is both evil and inefficient.

 

I know I am not making a thorough, convincing case of the Q.E.D. kind here. But I want you to think out of the box. Your diagnosis and proposed "cure" has been proposed very often. And I question their accuracy. You simply cannot count on the emergence of "honest leaders" out of a system that does not fit the nature of Armenian culture.