Birthright Armenia

[Anileve]

If Armenians truly want Armenia to improve economically then they would have to actually relocate there.

So when are you relocating there? I have a letter that needs to be taken there, naturally with a few dollars which might improve an economic position of a struggling family. The help I wouldn't be able to offer working in Armenia.

 

Somehow I think that Sev-Mard could have done with a "yes" or "no" answer...

 

[Teutonic Knight]

Maybe its due to the fact Armenia as a Nation had very little independence thru out her history, always subject to a foreign rule and judicial systems, and over time shaped what now appears “anarchy of a mind” “National psyche” we are a nation who does not believe in there own judiciary and government, be that Kocharian or Jesus Christ, Armenians would not give a benefit of the dought. It’s a phenomenon, but I believe over time we should see change in young genarations attitude.

That's a stupid victim mentality excuse.

There is an accumulated total of almost two millenia of Armenian independence.

 

What counts is the 543 years of TOTAL occupation as a result of which Armenians missed the industrial revolution, nationalism etc.

[Teutonic Knight]

So when are you relocating there? I have a letter that needs to be taken there, naturally with a few dollars which might improve an economic position of a struggling family. The help I wouldn't be able to offer working in Armenia.

You don't think you have the necessary skills do get a good job in Armenia?

[ED]

TK, why is it I’m starting not to like you?

 

I'm not bringing excuses, I'm stating facts, and in some sense I agree it is stupid, but this fact had its consequences and very apparent among us.

[Anileve]

You don't think you have the necessary skills do get a good job in Armenia?

Skills? Well I don't think that Armenians in Armenia have a problem with "skills", they were always very skillful and fast learners, however I do think they have a problem finding a place where they can apply their skills. That's the main dilemma now isn't it? In addition what I would be making there would be enough for me to buy one hard drive for a year, here I can buy a whole car within a month. Drawing a parallel, working and living here I can do both, support myself and help out the families in Armenia. So I don't know how your post is relative to what I was implying.

[Teutonic Knight]

TK, why is it I’m starting not to like you?

 

I'm not bringing excuses, I'm stating facts, and in some sense I agree it is stupid, but this fact had its consequences and very apparent among us.

Maybe because of the same reason why I don't like you?

 

Now you are giving excuses for excuses.

The facts are fine, the context in which you bring it up is victim mentality.

[Teutonic Knight]

Skills? Well I don't think that Armenians in Armenia have a problem with "skills", they were always very skillful and fast learners, however I do think they have a problem finding a place where they can apply their skills. That's the main dilemma now isn't it? In addition what I would be making there would be enough for me to buy one hard drive for a year, here I can buy a whole car within a month. Drawing a parallel, working and living here I can do both, support myself and help out the families in Armenia. So I don't know how your post is relative to what I was implying.

You do realize for example you would be making much less in Canada for the same job you have here but you would have the same expenses and live the same life as the prices and living standards are different in each country.

Everyone can find a job in Armenia. There are plenty of jobs for everyone.

You're just afraid you wont make it there or might not even get accepted.

[Teutonic Knight]

Armenia: Anything You Want it to Be

 

Shakeh Havan arrived in Armenia four years ago, with her two kids, and a plan to stay a year. So far, that year hasn’t come up. A manufacturing engineer by trade, Shakeh decided she needed a change, and felt like Armenia would be an interesting place to make it. “I didn’t come to Armenia just because I’m Armenian, it just ended up happening this way for me, and it’s comfortable here.” She first worked part time for the American Embassy, until the concept of opening a business came to her.

“The environment really made what it needed apparent. Armenia doesn’t need, or even like handouts anymore. People don’t want donations, they want opportunities.” So, after looking around, Shakeh came up with an idea. “When I came, there weren’t many places that a single woman could go to relax with a cup of coffee, and feel comfortable.” So the idea of an indoor coffee-shop materialized.

 

“In the beginning, the hardest thing was trying to come up with the name. That stalled me for a while, because before you can register for your permits, you have to have a name.” But, eventually she found it, and Artbridge was born. Art for the books, paintings, and works she wanted to display for sale throughout the location, and bridge for the connectivity that the coffee-shop atmosphere would provide.

 

But was it an easy in today’s Armenia to transfer the idea of Artbridge into a tangible reality? Bureaucratically, she says, yes. “I didn’t have any problems getting my licenses. The expenses involved in starting a business in Armenia are almost ridiculously low, compared to Diasporan standards, and there is a wealth of intelligent human resources all over the country.”

But what about the lingering accusations of governmental corruption? “Corruption here is crude. Nobody’s asking me for $100,000.00 to be transferred to an offshore account in return for my liquor license, or for 50% of my profits every month in order to stay open. Here, when you pick up your five-dollar license for whatever it is you want to sell, you leave another five behind in an envelope. It’s more of a tip than a bribe, especially because it’s done after the fact, and you have to remember, there’s no such thing as a service charge here.”

 

In actuality, her biggest problem, she muses, was that “at first everyone thought I was crazy. People told me ‘nobody’s going to buy books, that will never work, and nobody’s going to sit in an indoor cafй, your chairs are too short, your music’s too low, your lights are too bright” and on and on and on. But a few months later, the bookstore was subsidizing the cafй, and seven months in, she was already making plans to expand the dining area. “Armenians are readers!” she says, “it’s always been in our culture.” And there’s no need to explain to Westerners the appeal of a comfortable place to relax, enjoy a nice cup of java, and diverse menu if you’re hungry.

Shakeh’s attitude reflects a growing sentiment in the new non-native community within Armenian. It is a community of educated professionals from more westernized countries, who now live within an Armenia which finds itself emerging from the ominous shadow of the Soviet Union, and looking for opportunities to prove itself. And businesses like Shakeh’s, which employ retail clerks, waiters, chefs, and managers give locals a wide variety of opportunities to explore.

 

“One of the most charming aspects of being a business owner here is knowing that you’re part of the development of the country.” And Shakeh and Artbridge are just that. “When I first started, I wanted to sell tickets to the cultural events that happen all around the city, but nobody had ever heard of such a thing. You either bought tickets from the box office, or you didn’t buy tickets. It’s not like the opportunity to provide such a service didn’t exist, I was just the first one to try to exploit it.” It worked, and three years later, ticket services, just like the one Shakeh started in her store, abound all over Yerevan, with some services even offering home delivery.

 

“I love the fact that I have competition now. Competition is what drives an economy; it ensures that customers are getting the very best, because it forces people to sharpen their skills. I want to be the best at what I do, and I don’t know if I am if I have no competition.”

 

Armenia’s development is also apparent in the slight changes in the bureaucracy since Shakeh started her business. “Back then they laughed when I asked if any zoning restrictions existed” she says. “I asked if they wanted to see pictures of my signs to make sure the colors were okay, and they couldn’t understand why.” Now, rules state that signs must display Armenian characters larger than any others, and ecological restrictions are in place to preserve sections of the city’s parks from construction.

“The great thing about Armenia, is that it can be anything you want it to be. If you want to be bored, it can be boring, but if you want it to be an interesting and exciting place, the opportunities are out there, you just have to reach out and grab them.”

 

http://www.armeniadiaspora.com/feature/index.html

[Teutonic Knight]

Btw during my stay in Yerevan I was making 500 USD a month working for various NGO's. That's in 99.

 

I was living a lot better than back home where I was getting paid 4500 a month for the same job+benefits.

[Anileve]

You do realize for example you would be making much less in Canada for the same job you have here but you would have the same expenses and live the same life as the prices and living standards are different in each country.

Everyone can find a job in Armenia. There are plenty of jobs for everyone.

You're just afraid you wont make it there or might not even get accepted.

Everything is possible. But the fact remains, I would never want to live in Armenia, for several reasons. Presenting those reasons as a universal standards in a form of a authoritative persuasion is pointless, because my views as everyone elses is subjective. All I can say is that one is defined by the content of his/her character rather than by the nationality. We as human beings can remain what we are and chose to live wherever we feel is confortable, we are not animals in the zoo where we are confined to our cages with labels of what "sort" we belong to. You can contribute to several causes from outside as well as contribute distruction from the inside, the location is not relevant. Flow of rich Armenian immigrants only contributed to a further separation of the classes, but that is just my opinion.

[Teutonic Knight]

Everything is possible. But the fact remains, I would never want to live in Armenia, for several reasons. Presenting those reasons as a universal standards in a form of a authoritative persuasion is pointless, because my views as everyone elses is subjective. All I can say is that one is defined by the content of his/her character rather than by the nationality. We as human beings can remain what we are and chose to live wherever we feel is confortable, we are not animals in the zoo where we are confined to our cages with labels of what "sort" we belong to. You can contribute to several causes from outside as well as contribute distruction from the inside, the location is not relevant. Flow of rich Armenian immigrants only contributed to a further separation of the classes, but that is just my opinion.

Fair enough.

"Separation of classes" as you put it is required for any healthy, free and democratic society.

 

Laissez faire

[Armen]

TK, I am one year out of Armenia and all my relatives are there. I have been living there for 30 years.

 

While I respect your impulse for repatriation, it is realy, realy hard to find job in Armenia. I am gonna return there as soon as I am done with my studies here in the U.S. but I would not advise everybody to do the same. I am going back because I have a secure job.

Second, as it was noted earlier the is no demand or lack to specialists in Armenia. Maybe in some fields and only a handful of jobs.

I would also note that:

- Armenia's govenment is not doing anything to improve the situation.

- Regional situation is very shaky and it will remain that way for some time

[gamavor]

Btw during my stay in Yerevan I was making 500 USD a month working for various NGO's. That's in 99.

 

I was living a lot better than back home where I was getting paid 4500 a month for the same job+benefits.

Exactly! Many Westerners realized that and still the trend is continuing. Recently they are buying property like crazy in Eastern Europe. I was in "your shoes" and I know how 'sweet' the feeling is. With $1000 (these days) in Yerevan, or anywhere east of Vienna you can have a lifestyle equall to the one if you have $6-8000 anywhere else in Europe or USA. Plus, you will have more time and more things to do.

 

Oh, good old days. Don't give up Teuton something else might come up!

[Teutonic Knight]

TK, I am one year out of Armenia and all my relatives are there. I have been living there for 30 years.

 

While I respect your impulse for repatriation, it is realy, realy hard to find job in Armenia. I am gonna return there as soon as I am done with my studies here in the U.S. but I would not advise everybody to do the same. I am going back because I have a secure job.

Second, as it was noted earlier the is no demand or lack to specialists in Armenia. Maybe in some fields and only a handful of jobs.

I would also note that:

- Armenia's govenment is not doing anything to improve the situation.

- Regional situation is very shaky and it will remain that way for some time

Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country

 

Funny thing, when I returned to Yerevan last summer the exact same people were complaining about not being able to find jobs from several years ago

There are plenty of oppurtunities for everyone as long as you don't expect handouts and have the will you'll be fine.

[Anileve]

Fair enough.

"Separation of classes" as you put it is required for any healthy, free and democratic society.

 

Laissez faire

Not when it's an unequal distribution with extremely large gaps. Middle class is virtually nonexistent there, which is highly uncharacteristic of a healthy free and democratic society.

[Teutonic Knight]

Exactly! Many Westerners realized that and still the trend is continuing. Recently they are buying property like crazy in Eastern Europe. I was in "your shoes" and I know how 'sweet' the feeling is. With $1000 (these days) in Yerevan, or anywhere east of Vienna you can have a lifestyle equall to the one if you have $6-8000 anywhere else in Europe or USA. Plus, you will have more time and more things to do.

 

Oh, good old days. Don't give up Teuton something else might come up!

I bought a flat on Amiryan for 40K and now rent it to foreign workers. Two of my close friends just opened a real estate business and they are making tons of cash as brokers.

[Teutonic Knight]

Not when it's an unequal distribution with extremely large gaps. Middle class is virtually nonexistent there, which is highly uncharacteristic of a healthy free and democratic society.

Middle Class is a requirement.

It's been a little over a decade. We're getting there and already we have accomplished a lot more than newly formed countries like Greece a decade from 1829 or more recently Israel(and they got Swiss/German money and US handouts worth of trillions) a decade from 1948 in the same timespan.

Edited July 30, 2004 by Teutonic Knight

[Armen]

Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country

 

Funny thing, when I returned to Yerevan last summer the exact same people were complaining about not being able to find jobs from several years ago

There are plenty of oppurtunities for everyone as long as you don't expect handouts and have the will you'll be fine.

TK, you're disregarding every personal story behind all of this big repatriation movement you plan. While I agree that there is a segment in diaspora that is secure in their wealth and, taking into account all their patriotic drives and slogans, should have moved to Armenia long ago, I don't agree that the Hyeforum people are among those who do not understand when, how and for what reason are they going to move back.

 

Helping the ones who do not want to help themselves is a crime.

[Anileve]

While I agree that there is a segment in diaspora that is secure in their wealth and, taking into account all their patriotic drives and slogans, should have moved to Armenia long ago, I don't agree that the Hyeforum people are among those who do not understand when, how and for what reason are they going to move back.

BRILLIANT!!!!

[Armen]

BRILLIANT!!!!

Ani, that was not brilliant. I know when I am brilliant. Brilliant is actually my word. And I still don't talk to you.

[Teutonic Knight]

TK, you're disregarding every personal story behind all of this big repatriation movement you plan. While I agree that there is a segment in diaspora that is secure in their wealth and, taking into account all their patriotic drives and slogans, should have moved to Armenia long ago, I don't agree that the Hyeforum people are among those who do not understand when, how and for what reason are they going to move back.

That's basically my problem with the so called patriots in the Diaspora.

I don't undertsand why "Hyeforum people" are somehow of another sort though.

[Anileve]

I bought a flat on Amiryan for 40K and now rent it to foreign workers. Two of my close friends just opened a real estate business and they are making tons of cash as brokers.

Interesting....So you have opened a flat and now rent it to foreign workers who naturally can afford it. How is that helping out the locals which have lived there all their lives and the younger generation is unable to afford decent housing. Because the rent has doubled, due to the fact that diasporians are buying out all of the buildings and making a great living by renting it out to other wealthy immigrants. Soon the country will be constituted of patriotic tycoons who will be responsible for a further migration of the natives to other countries. Surely enough a person with a western education and a substantial capital will have a different view of the living standards than the people who have been struggling with a poor economy all of their lives.

 

Hey I am not against a relocation, but to emphasize that if one considers himself a real Armenian or cares about the country even slightly should march on to the motherland is just absurd.

[Armen]

I don't undertsand why "Hyeforum people" are somehow of another sort though.

TK do you think that people who spend days and months and even years talking to their kin (visitng Armenia, spreading info etc.) about everything in the world need patriotic or technical encouragement to go back?

[Anileve]

Ani, that was not brilliant. I know when I am brilliant. Brilliant is actually my word. And I still don't talk to you.

It was my subjective statement disregarding your own view of it, therefore all that matters is that I consider it brilliant. Brilliant has been my word for quite sometime, I didn't realize that it was patented. And you still hold a subtle fondness for me deep down inside behind that emotional barricade of yours.

[Teutonic Knight]

Interesting....So you have opened a flat and now rent it to foreign workers who naturally can afford it. How is that helping out the locals which have lived there all their lives and the younger generation is unable to afford decent housing. Because the rent has doubled, due to the fact that diasporians are buying out all of the buildings and making a great living by renting it out to other wealthy immigrants. Soon the country will be constituted of patriotic tycoons who will be responsible for a further migration of the natives to other countries. Surely enough a person with a western education and a substantial capital will have a different view of the living standards than the people who have been struggling with a poor economy all of their lives.

Well i'm a foreigner myself, not a drop of Armenian blood.

I got the apartment to live there, until I get there i'm going to rent it to whoever can afford it.

Curently I'm investing money to open a business in Yerevan, hopefully by next summer.

 

Hey I am not against a relocation, but to emphasize that if one considers himself a real Armenian or cares about the country even slightly should march on to the motherland is just absurd.

 

It's not. Otherwise don't call yourself an Armenian. Stick to being an American with Armenian heritage.