Some photos of the Ani quarry

[MJ]

Edward,

 

Shock waves are things that I know something about.

 

Shock waves may be generated only in the wake of a supersonic flow of the pressurized air, i.e. flow of air at speeds faster than the speed of the sound. I don't have a feeling that the underground explosions of such magnitude are capable of generating shock waves in the first place. Regardless of this observation, however, even if such waves are generated, due to the moderate altitudes of the questioned location, the viscosity of the air would trigger total dissipation of these waves accompanied with heat transfer after traveling some 100-150m, at best.

[THOTH]

MJ et al,

 

I am no expert in shock waves or in potential for architectural damage from such etc - but I must say any force (such as blasting from mining...or for instance an earthquake or bomb blast) can produce shock waves through the air or ground that can be potentially (very) damaging. I don't know if such blasts as were occuring in the quarrying would produce such at damaging levels to the distance of Ani - but it seems to me that it is potentially likely that they could.

 

I personnaly know someone who is a recognized expert in blast effects as related to civil defense/bomb shelters that I could refer this question to if more data were available. I also know some folks who were at Cal Tech conducting meteor shock wave effect expirements (wild stuff - with the big gun!) who also may be able to shed some light on these possiblities if it really is an issue of whether or not this type of damage is possible...shall I make some inquiries? (how much do you really question that such damage is possible?)

[edward demian]

Mj

I don't have any argument with your definision of shock waves. I am a mining engineer and am familiar with shock waves generated by detonations of 2000 to 120,000 tons shots. Shock waves are generated by many sources: aircraft, thunder, Explosions, solar flares, etc. However, I appreciate your imput.

 

Bellthecat

Thanks for the imput. The method you described seems very primitive. Chasing irregular boulders to cut them into thin slabs is a "proven financial looser" method.

Here Dynamite is used in underground mining only. Here we use black powder to blow out the key stones (when the inspectors are not looking). Then we use gang-drills to drill a line of holes (behind and under the ledge)to pop the ledge free from the bedrock. Then the ledge is split into blocks, which are placed into gang-saws where they are slabbed for final cutting. Basalt is a very hard stone. I'm not familiar with "soft" basalt. Perhaps you mean TUFA. Tuf is an excellent, light weight building stone. Allmost impervious to weather. Very easy to cut and carve. Thr ancient ones used to place the stones on each side (interior and exterior) and fill in between with sand, rock and egg white. (Egg white is Albumin.)Albumin is probably better bonding agent than Portland Cement due to its flexibility . Concrete will cure to a higher psi, but has limited

flex properties. Modern contractors have much to learn from ancient Armenian architecture and building methods. The Ani Cathedral is a ruin due to its roof collapsing and subsequent water dammage, coupled with the effects of a few barbarian

invasions and war dammage.

I think that someone's inexperienced relative got the contract to supply the stone and is doing what he can. Like else- where, the Golden Rule dictates: he who has the gold makes all the rules. The money comes from abroad without many strings and is managed by those who write the rules.

Here in Palm Springs, the Armenian community is building a church. They have over a million dollars for it and insted of building a traditional stone building like we used to do, (or a concrete block building, and clad it with stone hung on a metal back up system with stainless steel anchors) they are building a wood frame building with a little stone on the front. The termites are going to eat that building down to the nails in 50 years. But the people who donated and control the money are doing what they wish. Not one of them has experience in stone extraction or construction, and made sure that the lone experienced but dissenting voice on the church council was eased out and marginalized. Once again "he who has the gold makes all the rules". So in Armenia, expect less.

However, they will finish that Cathedral, no matter how, and we will be prowd of it. And that is most important.

[ThornyRose]

Tooth? ROTFLMAO!
Looks like it is beddy-bye time for you, MJ... (((:
Somebody hold me, Ima gonna fall off my chair! (((((:
I know one blasting expert myself (it is said he is the best in Turkey)... Though it is only "knowing"... And he is too busy making money to be interested in helping (or going to the spot to conduct tests!)... He would probably shoo me out of his office (a bit touchy grumpy old guy)... Such a shame...

[MJ]

Just another sleepless grumpy old guy here...

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:

Tooth, feel free to appeal to your experts (you don't need our permission to do so, right?).

---

Well - I only offered if you or such felt you needed such input (its not such a big issue with me)

BTW - perhaps the term "shockwave" has different meanings - I'm sure I've heard my meteor & earthquake chasing friends refer to such in a very differnt capacity then the narrow definition that you are using....

[MJ]

Tooth,

 

No problem. Sorry if I sounded rude. I didn’t mean to.

 

The term “shock wave” or “traveling waves” is a well defined scientific term. There is a huge body of research associated with it in the disciplines from genetic studies to supersonic jets. I am sure that your friends deal with one of the forms of “shock waves.” However, in astrophysical applications I am sure they deal with some very specific types of such waves due to the absence of atmosphere (non-dissipative waves).

 

Anyway, it’s been about 7 years I am out of that realm of work.

 

Anyway, the bottom line regarding the Ani quarries is that the detonations are stopped for about two months, now.

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
Tooth,

No problem. Sorry if I sounded rude. I didn’t mean to.

---

No not rude (but it is THOTH please...LOL

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:

Anyway, the bottom line regarding the Ani quarries is that the detonations are stopped for about two months, now.

---

Yea - OK - agreed. Though it would be nice to know if indeed such activity was impacting Ani (as Steve suggests - and he was on the spot over time...etc). You know that the Turks will make an issue of it - so the Armenians should be prepared to defend that the activities were benign (if true)...and if not - they should display the proper humility and sorrow for their (perhaps boneheaded) actions...etc

take care

[MJ]

Sorry, I didn’t intentionally mistype your User name. What does it mean, by the way?

I agree that the issue of the impact of the detonations should’ve been scientifically studied before trying to use it for political gains. Understandably, the Armenian side has not had that opportunity. However, the insinuations that the shock waves or sonic waves may have caused damage to the structures do not look serious to me. However, I am ready to concede to any serious such evidence.

I think that the Armenian side had to be extra careful with this issue, given the appearance of a possibility of damage to Ani. It was obvious that the issue was going to be demagoged. Nevertheless, discounting for the delays to stop the detonations, I see them behaving quite professionally, and can’t find an element of arrogance or racism in their replies. I think their arguments about the limitations of the impact of the detonations were valid ones. But if they were technically not accurate, that is a different issue to be addressed at a different level, I think.

[MJ]

Shock waves are generated by the aircrafts only in supersonic regimes. Same is true about thunderstorms, etc. As I said above, I don't have a feel of the detonations [of 2000 to 120,000 tons shots], as how strong they are, and if they can generate shock waves which travel beyond 100-150m without being dissipated. I am highly suspicious of it.

 

Tooth, feel free to appeal to your experts (you don't need our permission to do so, right?).

 

[ August 30, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[bellthecat]

That will be just after the flight of flying pigs clear the runway.

I have been inside the Tigran Honents church during an explosion, and have seen dust and small stones falling from the ceiling after a blast.

But I must be lying because I'm not Armenian.

During the period of blasting between August 2000 and June 2001 the upper half of the west facade of the cathedral has leaned outwards by at least 12 inches

But I must be lying because Armenians say there is no damage possible.

Unlike you lot I get off my arse and do something and go and see for myself, and I've been to Ani probably more times than your average Armenian politician accepts bribes in a month.

But that is unimportant because only Armenian "specialists" matter.

Racist Armenian ****s - you make me sick.

Steve

PS, Edward - Tufa IS a basalt, and how could anyone be "proud" of that visual and cultural and moral obscenity of a cathedral.

[THOTH]

Steve -

 

regardless of the degree of admiration I have for you and what you are doing - I think you have some real problems...

[MJ]

What a hero...

[THOTH]

MJ -

 

agree with your points.

 

THOTH is/was the Egyptian God of knowledge/wisdom/science etc etc (sort of their Prometheus or Enki)

[MJ]

I see. Good to have a God of Knowledge in this forum.

[edward demian]

bellthecat

I came late to this forum so I don't know you or anyone else in this forum. When you called the catherdral of any ugly, I felt slighted. I don't understand why because I'm trying to be unemotional and professional about it. Sure, It's not the Cathedral of Notre Dame in ornamentation, but you have to understand the History of Architecture to understand what that cathedral means to the Armenians.

Sure, by today's standards, it seems simple, but its an architectural marvel, from the standpoint of construction methods. The area is a highly seismic zone and for it to have lasted this long, it's a marvel in itself.

That cathedral and aghtamar means as much to the Armenians as the Wailing Wall means to the Jews. I would be embarassing myself in a forum to tell a Jewish Audience that "their Wailing Wall is an ugly thing and I don't understand the fuss about it." The difference is that at the time we built that cathedral, the Turks were copulating and defacating on horseback and and living in goat-hair tents.

Armenian Architecture had to be modest in it's outward appearance, because the Muslim Savages around us allways used religious ferver as another excuse to raid and pillage the area. Ornate monuments attracted raids for plunder.

There were times when we could not even show any Armenian script. We had to disguise the inscriptions in the form of birds and flowers

so it would not be recognizable as such to the muslims. So I can understand the cynical attitude. Its the cynicism of a primitive people towards a superior culture.

I understand the reason why the turks want to erase the existance of anything Armenian;

It makes the turks look bad by comparrison.

[elovna]

A few comments.

 

You all have a mutual concern: the safety of the Ani church. You are all intelligent adults. There is no need to get personal and treat each other with disrespect.

Personal frustrations should not surface here on this topic, because it won't help to clear up things at all, on the contrary.

 

Again, you have a mutual concern: preserving/protecting the church.

How can that lead to arguments like these?

 

I have a suggestion to make to all of you:

Start this topic over and do it right this time. Help each other to be and stay objective. Be friends, not ennemies. You have many differences but a mutual concern, maybe even a goal. THAT alone should matter here.

[MJ]

Perhaps that is the question here...

[THOTH]

Aghtchik,

 

thank you - your words are truly words of wisdom (and I should know - right MJ?....LOL)

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
What a hero...

---

And what is unusual about this? Perfection is only in fairy tales - right Steve?

[MJ]

Could you be more explicit, THOTH? I couldn't follow you.

 

[ August 31, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[THOTH]

MJ -

 

My reference is to all heros being flawed in some way. They are only human are they not? Thus by definition...

 

(Hey MJ - isn't there someone more interesting around to harass....? LOL)

[MJ]

Thoth,

 

I have no inerest in harassing neither the interesting ones nor the non-intersting ones. I just expect/hope basic dignity and common sense. Btw, this has nothing to do with you, personally.

[THOTH]

MJ -

 

What has nothing to do with me personaly?

 

(I'm joking about the harrasment)

[MJ]

The expectations/hopes on dignity, etc.