Armen Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Sometimes I think that if Turkey recognized Genocide I would feel nothing. When seeing our government's unhuman treatment of its citizens, the corrupt Church, Armenian pimps trafficing Armenian women to Turkey, politicians ready to sell Armenia at any moment to accomplish their individual goals etc. I see no reason why would the fact of recongnition satisfy my national aspirations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 It would be a catastrophe. our 'raison d'etre' would disintegrate in a matter of hours, if not minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 To accomplish, to pursue and bringing those who were responsible, certainly due in 89 years to justice, we must not only act but hope and dream for a better future for our self’s, just pursuing for recognition of a Genocide I’m afraid we as a nation would gain a recognition, meanwhile by loosing a homeland. To pursue and to achieve one must not and can not have only Genocide in mind. For now days having prosperous and vibrant republic is a necessity for us all, and for our generations to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 (edited) It would be a catastrophe. our 'raison d'etre' would disintegrate in a matter of hours, if not minutes. I feel you on this one Vava. Obviously the slave trade and racism in America/world are different beasts than the horror of the genocide, but I was such a militant guy about the black experience and hating on white people. It just drains you, and it's all you have. I've obviously moved past that, but each person will do this in their own time. So I imagine for certain hyer who are still only fueled with this, if the genocide was recognized, it would then call for them to reevaluate and get new purpose. Which can be frightening/crippling at times. Does what I said make any sense? Edited February 6, 2004 by sev-mard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastia Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Sometimes I think that if Turkey recognized Genocide I would feel nothing. When seeing our government's unhuman treatment of its citizens, the corrupt Church, Armenian pimps trafficing Armenian women to Turkey, politicians ready to sell Armenia at any moment to accomplish their individual goals etc. I see no reason why would the fact of recongnition satisfy my national aspirations. Bro, I see you're devastated, but it's okay. All these currutions will go away one by one in the years to come. Remember, Armenia is a new republic and every new republic has curruption problems. Thats how it begins. When U.S.A. became independent, it had MUCH MORE curruptions than we do now. So, don't worry about it, as time goes on, our national problem will solve itself generation by generation. Now regarding the genocide issue, it has to be recognized not because it would make us feel better, but because it will make the turks recognize their inhumane and will make sure that this will never happen again. In regards to our lands, I don't think there is ANY Armenian out there that doubts that we will get them back!!!! I mean--look at Artsakh. If you had asked ANYONE in the soviet days if Artsakh would be part of Armenia, they would think that you're crazy!!! Lav klini, mi mtasek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 I would be pleasantly surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 I feel you on this one Vava. Obviously the slave trade and racism in America/world are different beasts than the horror of the genocide, but I was such a militant guy about the black experience and hating on white people. It just drains you, and it's all you have. I've obviously moved past that, but each person will do this in their own time. So I imagine for certain hyer who are still only fueled with this, if the genocide was recognized, it would then call for them to reevaluate and get new purpose. Which can be frightening/crippling at times. Does what I said make any sense? Sevik jan, Although the example you draw upon has some distinct parallels, I'm not entirely sure it applies. Armenians throughout the world are quite disjointed - various segments of diaspora having different challenges, adaptations and above all different 'new' realities. Perhaps even more divided than the African American (how i dislike that term) population in NAé The one sole rallying point for all Armenians, whether postive or not, has been the pursuit of genocide recognition. Like it or not, this has been a formidable unifying force for armenian people - even if they share very few other commonalities (nations of residence, political aspirations, adopted languages, cultures etc.) I'm afraid that with it's removal, our culture/people will lose an important bastion of our identity... I'm not sure how much of the population would simply re-evluate and divert their energies into other avenues (ie. the development of the ROA, for one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 I'm afraid that with it's removal, our culture/people will lose an important bastion of our identity... This is exactly what i'm saying. The discrimination a culture suffers become a major part of it's identity. But through time it either becomes less of an issue, or morphs. I understand what you're saying and by brining up the Blackman's parallelism am I wondering, and posing the question, if you feel that even though it's a major portion, is too much of the identity of Armenians being put into this ideal? Because like your quote says if this should be realized, which it just might, what then would be a driving force the haykakan. Dare you use blacks as an example.... ...you can see how disjointed we are. Yet blacks with all our encompassing hues can lay no claims to homogeniety, even across the Diaspora like hyer can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Armenians throughout the world are quite disjointed - various segments of diaspora having different challenges, adaptations and above all different 'new' realities..... The one sole rallying point for all Armenians, whether postive or not, has been the pursuit of genocide recognition. Like it or not, this has been a formidable unifying force for armenian people - even if they share very few other commonalities (nations of residence, political aspirations, adopted languages, cultures etc.) I'm afraid that with it's removal, our culture/people will lose an important bastion of our identity... No Vava! I don't think the only unifying force for Armenian people has been the pursuit of genocide recognition. We've got such a unique history and past that only our history alone is enough for us to be united and have a national identity. Having the genocide recognized would only reinforce us to be more proud of our nationality and would make us stronger when we realize that we too have a place in world history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Now regarding the genocide issue, it has to be recognized not because it would make us feel better, but because it will make the turks recognize their inhumane and will make sure that this will never happen again. In regards to our lands, I don't think there is ANY Armenian out there that doubts that we will get them back!!!! I mean--look at Artsakh. If you had asked ANYONE in the soviet days if Artsakh would be part of Armenia, they would think that you're crazy!!! Lav klini, mi mtasek. Completely agree with you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 It's not the only one anoush-jan, but it's major. At least for the lay Armenian. I feel it's much like how many Blacks harp on racism, slavery and general dislike of white people. As we cling to that as part of our 'history' it drives and shapes us, many times in not necessarily positive ways. I'm on the outside looking in, just trying to add to the discusssion. peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 To answer your question briefly, and somewhat inadequately ('cause I'm at work!) I think it would be optimistic to presume that Armenians will put aside a behaviour acquired over 90 years and merely 'move on' to something else. I think that the transition will be easy for some - but not so for many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Sev-mard, I don't think we can compare the tragedy of the Armenians with the tragedy of the blacks. You're right that the blacks have a general dislike of whites (I also have a general dislike of whites regarding that matter) and maybe a parallel could be made with the Armenians having a general dislike of the Muslims. Throughout our history we've suffered with the Muslims and the genocide was just a chapter in our long history. BUT what makes us have a strong national identity has nothing to do with the Muslims or the genocide but the fact that we have a 6,000 year history and that we are the sole owners of our land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Well, whether we have a strong identity because of our history or the Genocide, is largely unimportant. What is important is that the Genocide has permeated into the Armenian consciousness and is a part of our national drive and unity, giving us a sense of purpose. If it was Christianity that acted as the tissue to unite Armenians in the millenia before, religiously, it is the Genocide that unites Armenians secularly, and it is a great part of who we are. If it is recognized by Turkey, I'd be enthralled, but at the same time I'd feel a bit uneasy for then what will be a driving force or purpose of Armenians? Few understand how much of a pivotal uniting force the Genocide issue has become for Armenians. I guess only time will tell. Excelsior! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 ..... BUT what makes us have a strong national identity has nothing to do with the Muslims or the genocide but the fact that we have a 6,000 year history and that we are the sole owners of our land. We are? I thought the turks have most of 'our land'. Anoushik, I don't think that a future of history lessons is going to cut it when it comes to keeping our culture vibrant (and not merely preserving it...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastia Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 ...but at the same time I'd feel a bit uneasy for then what will be a driving force or purpose of Armenians? man, I hope that it would be the idea of us getting our homeland back and rebuilding it. I think that would be an awesome reason, especially the rebuilding part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 If it is recognized by Turkey, I'd be enthralled, but at the same time I'd feel a bit uneasy for then what will be a driving force or purpose of Armenians? Few understand how much of a pivotal uniting force the Genocide issue has become for Armenians. I guess only time will tell.... Exactly my point. My outlook may be less optimistic than Mouse's as his post seems to hint at a potetial good... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 man, I hope that it would be the idea of us getting our homeland back and rebuilding it. I think that would be an awesome reason, especially the rebuilding part. We have a homeland. What is the ROA to you? How about we rebuild that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 What I meant by Armenians being the sole owners of our land is that we have always been there. We didn't migrate from another place. But this is not a history thread. About the genocide being the Armenians' national drive, can any of you please give an example of what you mean? Just marching every April 24 on Hollywood Blv. is not exactly having a strong national drive or purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 And also, do you really think that Armenians try to marry Armenians and stay Armenian so that their kids or their grandkids in the future will still fight for the Genocide resolution? Is that our "driving force" for having a strong national pride? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Well, whether we have a strong identity because of our history or the Genocide, is largely unimportant. What is important is that the Genocide has permeated into the Armenian consciousness and is a part of our national drive and unity, giving us a sense of purpose. ...a "sense" of purpose is a great way to put it. I agree with you completely Anonymouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 Well, for our nation a sense of purpose is essential to come out of the deep hole that we are in. As soon as we are out we can just live like normal nations or countries without any particular sense of purpose. I don't imagine that France, Germany, Canada, Japan, etc... any normal developed countries have a particular sense of purpose other than routine purposes. There is nothing wrong with that and I wish Armenia was in that category. The recognition of the Genocide is certainly a significant step ahead towards the coming out of our hole. Recognition would certainly lead to economic benefits to Armenia as well as psychological improvement of our national character, and also a sense of a winner rather than a victim. In my opinion Genocide recognition would be a very positive thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastia Posted February 6, 2004 Report Share Posted February 6, 2004 We have a homeland. no, WRONG, we have a little portion of our homeland. When I said homeland, I had every little piece of grass included. What is the ROA to you? The ROA is once again, only a little portion of our homeland. ROA is the beginning of our goal of getting ALL of our land back. How about we rebuild that? We are rebuilding that. Maybe a little slower than we should be, but if you consider the corruption in our state and the bad neighborhood, I'd say we're on our way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koko Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 I agree with Anoshik our culture and nation is seperate from the genocide we have been through many hardships as a people through history,,, I dont believe that aknowleading the genocide will be a reality, turkey would never do that. and neither will the USA or Israel.. because everything that is going on today in the world is directly related to this problem! The so called "kurdish population" in western armenia, the karabahk conflict and the israel conflict they are all driven with the same politics... That turkey, and USA has had for decades.. And Artsahk, I for once, would never how doubted that we would get artsahk??? What do you mean??! its not about doubt, if Turkey and other chicken republics in the world comes to reason and realizes that they are wrong...we woudnt have this problem.. an armenian could not doubt that they will "get back" artsahk ,because then we would have lost our lands. And the question is not about land either. I hope for a recognisation but... a recognistion for ME AND ARMENIA means a lot of things... that will be heaven on earth -we all hope for that day..to come... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted February 7, 2004 Report Share Posted February 7, 2004 (edited) First of all the Genocide should have been settled 89 years ago and the reason for the delay is due to Turkeys and the worlds fear of paying their dues... Now if it was accepted and some how through legal or international pressure someone insist that some form of retribution is in order...I would be very pleased and would look towards a new age in the Armenian history. But...if the world just says it was "tragedy...thats that" and places it in history without any punishment then I would be upset. BOTTOM LINE...somone has to payup... I do not think the driving force has been the genocide because before 1915 Armenians had a healthy outlook on life...we built churches, culture, and contributed much to the world. However because the genocide has been streched over a matter of 89 years it has sort of become our drive and is polluting the minds of our youth because ghost from the past are huanting them in the future. The youth generally lacks the knowledge of anything besides the genocide because the world is failing is to close a chapter in a book, which was written 89 years ago. So you see that even though the genocide officially ended 89 years ago it is still rampent today in the atmosphere of our youth. They are not just battling the denial of history, but also a slow death. I think it would be great for the Genocide to end and would finally allow us to inniate phase two of the plan what ever it may be. The key role at this moment is the diaspera and what ever role they take will decide the faith of Armenians, which evidently Turkey is attacking to divide Armenians. In 12 years it will mark the 100th year of denial or genocide, which is it going to be? Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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