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Cultural Relativism?


gevo27

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What arguements can support cultural relativism? I do not believe this is that case in reality, event though it may very much so seem that way in our society and the world as a whole.. Whats your take on it..??

 

DISCLAIMER: This has the potential to be a very argumentative subject, please if people do not agree with your views and provide counter arguments, do not attack them, attack there counter arguments with sound arguments of your own. Dont want this thread to turn out like some of the other controversial threads have. Thank You :)

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Your very right Mouse, hereis what the dictionary has to say for it..

 

rel·a·tiv·ism    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (rl-t-vzm)

n. Philosophy

A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them.

 

And its basically the main idea of the phrase,, "cultural relativism"..

 

It is reffering to the idea/beleife that what we view as morally and ethically right is solely dependant on w\the standards set by those who are more or less the more influencial people of the society..

 

For example:

 

The eskimos beleived (still do actually) that when they have guests over it would be morally and ethically a "rude" gesture if they were not to hand there wifes to the guest for the night.. They also beleived on long winters it would be morally wrong to keep the daughter of the houshold if there was not enough food for the family to feast on during the whole winter.. btw, grandpa and grandma went first..

 

Now, to them this is right, to us (i hope) this is horrific... because. If i had an old grandma living in new york in a house that was mine, and i ran outta money.. Do you think it would be morally right or wrong for me to sell that house kick her out, (in which hypotetically assuming that she would die in the cold if i were to kick her out) so i can pay my bills and have a good life...???

 

That is more or less what i mean by "cultural relativsim"...

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Well "cultural relativism" and morality go hand in hand really. I don't see how you can seperate one from the other. I am more inclined to say that certain cultural behaviors may differ and in fact do differ from culture to culture but this has ultimately no bearing on a universal moral law. It is to be expected there are cultural differences and inequalities among cultures simply because of mans innate inequalities.

 

The basic development of this idea can be traced to the egalitarianism that pervaded academia. It's sole purpose was to sort of make us not "judge" other cultures, but can we really do this? Humans are such that they all judge. Judging is part of the human character. We are exposed to information, we accept it, and we judge for good or bad. Well what cultural relativism ultimately implies is moral relativism and I do not agree with either.

 

Basically I think this goes down to the morality, the crux of it, the sense of right and wrong. This ultimately goes into this question, is there a universal moral law or is there no such thing? I apologize for jumping ahead of the game regarding culture, but I see this as ultimately an issue of morality since culture is nothing but a set of beliefs and morals handed down to us.

 

Now, from my perspective, since I believe in a universal moral law, I will argue against relativism. Simply put this universal law is not simply from the old or new testaments or any other religion, it is within us, in what we call conscience. C.S. Lewis says there's two sources of evidence for this, "One is the universe God has made...the other is that moral law which God has put into our minds." According to Lewis he goes on to say that the moral law is better evidence because, "..it is inside information...you find out more about God from the moral law than from the universe in general just as you find out more about a man by listening to his conversation than by looking at a house he has built."

 

Basically this is Lewis' affirmation along the lines of Kant who pointed out the "moral law within" as the powerful witness to the greatness of God. Someone who would argue against this view would be Freud. According to him, God is simply a projection of parental authority. If we accept this then Lewis' and Kant's statement hold true and make sense. We associate parents with our creation and with teaching us right and wrong. Freud argues that our father is the person who gave us life and guarded us against perils and taught us the necessarily knowledge, and right and wrong, and to perform certain duties by a system of rewards and punishments, to paraphrase Freud. So the ultimate conclusion is that since different parents come from different cultures that ultimately there is relativism here and how you are raised by certain parents in a certain culture is how you will become. To Freud and other rational thinkers, a universal moral law is in conflict with reason.

 

I would say that yes we learn tthe moral law in part from our parents, teachers, role models, and culture, and it helps develop our conscience. But this does not mean that the moral law is simply a "human invention" or "social construct". Our parents and culture did not simply make up the law any more than they made up the multiplication tables which they also teach us. Culture and customs change with time, morals and moral law hold firm.

 

Anyway, I apologize for veering off into forbidden lands but ultimately this is what the conversation would evolve to.

Edited by Anonymouse
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Well, definately i see what your saying mouse, and i agree to your view..

 

So. let me put this situation (hypothetic ofcourse) out there...

 

A child is born, and is flown to a distant island, noone else on the island except this child, (lets call it a him for our case).. And this child somehow manages to surviv on its own, and there is noone to teach it "this is right" or "this is wrong"... Would this child, when 30 years old and moves to la lets say, be a moral creature, by moral im meaning, would this child have in his conscionce the ability to determin, "killing is wrong" "stealing is wrong" etc....????

 

And this question is to everyone in general not just mouse...

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Well, definately i see what your saying mouse, and i agree to your view..

 

So. let me put this situation (hypothetic ofcourse) out there...

 

A child is born, and is flown to a distant island, noone else on the island except this child, (lets call it a him for our case).. And this child somehow manages to surviv on its own, and there is noone to teach it "this is right" or "this is wrong"... Would this child, when 30 years old and moves to la lets say, be a moral creature, by moral im meaning, would this child have in his conscionce the ability to determin, "killing is wrong" "stealing is wrong" etc....????

 

And this question is to everyone in general not just mouse...

Well, "morality" as we know it applies to humanity and its civilization.

 

When man has civilizaion it has seperated itself from the animals. But when man is alone it is forced to survive, it is also forced to be an animal to compete with the animal, so thus I don't see this as a valid comparison.

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Well, "morality" as we know it applies to humanity and its civilization.

 

When man has civilizaion it has seperated itself from the animals. But when man is alone it is forced to survive, it is also forced to be an animal to compete with the animal, so thus I don't see this as a valid comparison.

What comparison,?? i was comparing anything to anything.. I was asking for a hypothetical situation to be assesed, and a concensus to be formed of what would "most liekly" be the case..

 

I am not seperating nor conjoining cultural relativity with moral issues,, ofcourse they eventually go hand in hand.. But... i was asking a question forming basis for my next arguyment,,,...

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What comparison,?? i was comparing anything to anything.. I was asking for a hypothetical situation to be assesed, and a concensus to be formed of what would "most liekly" be the case..

 

I am not seperating nor conjoining cultural relativity with moral issues,, ofcourse they eventually go hand in hand.. But... i was asking a question forming basis for my next arguyment,,,...

Well, in that case, I really cannot pretend to know what would form of this lone ranger surviving on his own. If he has no contact with other humans are we to assume that he develops ideas of morality based on how humans relate to one another? I would think no.

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Well, in that case, I really cannot pretend to know what would form of this lone ranger surviving on his own. If he has no contact with other humans are we to assume that he develops ideas of morality based on how humans relate to one another? I would think no.

Don't mean to be anal but obviously this person would have issues with communication and the like, before he could even begin to grasp 'moral codes' and cultural relativism. I do believe somewhat what Mouse says about there being a Universal Law, but man humans simply choose to ignore or flaunt it. Even killer will tell you most of the time that there is remorse, or that they knew what they were doing is wrong. But as times go on and we as humans believe that mentally we are surpassing old ideals, or things such as universal laws, more and more people will act in disaccordance with them. Just look at the state of the world today, regardless of culture(and each one believes themselves to be right, pure, just) you see atrocities and flaunting of this percieved Universal Law on a regular basis. This saddens me, and gives rises to thoughts that the average person is not bad, merely selfish. Selfish in the sense that if given the choice to truly do what ever they want, to benefit self, they will do it. Sorry for rambling but I believe that the selfishness as I have described here, is taking over a bit of "cultural relativism". Sure different forms of civilization and upbringing can/will/do bend a person's ideas of what is right and wrong, this also played strongly against the internal ideal of a "universal law", but nowadays, as I see it, most humans are moving towards a Self-ish Law, doing what makes them happy. Drugs, sex, crime, money chasing and hoarding, etc.

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Don't mean to be anal but obviously this person would have issues with communication and the like, before he could even begin to grasp 'moral codes' and cultural relativism. I do believe somewhat what Mouse says about there being a Universal Law, but man humans simply choose to ignore or flaunt it. Even killer will tell you most of the time that there is remorse, or that they knew what they were doing is wrong. But as times go on and we as humans believe that mentally we are surpassing old ideals, or things such as universal laws, more and more people will act in disaccordance with them. Just look at the state of the world today, regardless of culture(and each one believes themselves to be right, pure, just) you see atrocities and flaunting of this percieved Universal Law on a regular basis. This saddens me, and gives rises to thoughts that the average person is not bad, merely selfish. Selfish in the sense that if given the choice to truly do what ever they want, to benefit self, they will do it. Sorry for rambling but I believe that the selfishness as I have described here, is taking over a bit of "cultural relativism". Sure different forms of civilization and upbringing can/will/do bend a person's ideas of what is right and wrong, this also played strongly against the internal ideal of a "universal law", but nowadays, as I see it, most humans are moving towards a Self-ish Law, doing what makes them happy. Drugs, sex, crime, money chasing and hoarding, etc.

Exactly right,

 

My point is, ther is no human being on this planet that has been raised by parnets or not (thus the hypothetical story was at the extrem for this purpose) that can deny there being some set of moral values...

 

Now, if we say that killing is wrong, and thats universal, well fine then, but some cultures think rape is fine also, is that universal? I agree with all posts in here so far, but im trying to figure out how we can to any extent compliment "cultural relativism" it would be as though we are all living in our own little worlds. And actually to some extent the world is allready devided up in a similar way..

 

So, the point being, "why do we come to awknowledge cultural relativism, even though we se its end flaw??

 

Im just sort of looking for an explanatin for this type of thinking and/or reasons that support "cultural relativism"

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Well i think people support it because it's actually true isn't it? I mean one can never generalize but many times 'cultures' do share ideas of morality that vastly differ from others. The example you first gave is a great one. Or examine how things have changed over time. Chinese culture is very paternal and youths are expected to bring their parents into their home and care for them in their old age. In ancient China there were some sections of society that took old folks into the mountains and left them to die when they reached a certain age. That may have been acceptable then, yet not today. So even within cultures morals can change and do over time. Despite it's flaw I don't think that acknowledging it is wrong per se. It does exist after all. :)

Are you trying to say that Universal Law as Mouse says superceds "cultural relativism" and that's why is should be ignored?

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Well i think people support it because it's actually true isn't it? I mean one can never generalize but many times 'cultures' do share ideas of morality that vastly differ from others. The example you first gave is a great one. Or examine how things have changed over time. Chinese culture is very paternal and youths are expected to bring their parents into their home and care for them in their old age. In ancient China there were some sections of society that took old folks into the mountains and left them to die when they reached a certain age. That may have been acceptable then, yet not today. So even within cultures morals can change and do over time. Despite it's flaw I don't think that acknowledging it is wrong per se. It does exist after all. :)

Are you trying to say that Universal Law as Mouse says superceds "cultural relativism" and that's why is should be ignored?

Yes sev mard jan, you are right, and yes i am trying to understand (not impose) why it is that so obviously there is a universal law (it starts in our gut -- where we get phrase "gut feeling" from) and yet the world is litterally moving the other direction from it..

 

LOL.. Does this have something to do with the theory that everything is moving from order to disorder in its natural state??

 

Imagin if this continues for a few hundred more years, we would all eventually have our own rules completely dependant on our beleifs,, and what is a beleif.. well just that, nothing factual in material form, so we can beleive anything right??/ the world would be SCREWED>> LOL...

 

World organizations such as the UN and red cross have tried to impose (maybe not new beleif systems, or moral issues) but fundamental laws of humanity.. And the bill of rights is a good place to start for that judgment.. anyhow... lol.. I ave been sudying this since last semester in phil class and nothing can be accomplished from it, and no one agrees that universal law can prevail, true i suppose...

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Yeah I must sadly agree, there is no way that Universal Law can prevail as class, gender, power, social and ecomonic standing will make sure that never happens. It's too difficult for the selfish human mind to still function within the Universal Law when those factors are involved. They are in place from now till the sun burts in my opinion. That's how times have gone and the average person will keep bending Universal Law to suit themselves until governments and the like step in and take control. Examples of this any war a were a 'dictator' was deposed by some like the US, etc, to stop them from being selfish.

 

If the average man can live somewhat near to the Universal Law that is our gut feelign, at least we can have some semblance of civility amongst our fellow man during our life time. But this "he's doing it too" attitude is so rampant, it's almost not cool to have morals any more. And i'm not some hard ass fundamentalist, but I do believe in Universal Law, rights and wrongs, and being civil with other hue-man beings. ;)

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True sev mar..

 

Also the very assumtption by relativists that there is cultural relatvivity and most are based on being good people and for god of there society.... Well, this is very hypocritical at its core.. After all without an absolute right and an absolute wrong, how did they first judge such and such is a bad thing.. such and such is a good thing??? lol... i had such a hard time in phyl class cause of this, everyone would just listen to the professor endlesssly make distrubing comments of civility, and just agree with him for he sake of the end of the 2 hours to come.. LOL.. Oh no not me, i couldnt andle most of what he asserted,, it was supposed to be a discussion type of class, for me it was to see how many question the professor can ask me to proov me wrong and him right, and how many questions i can ask him that he couldnt answer LOL...

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I think it would be safe to say that since the beginning of recorded history people have been aware of a law that they felt they ought to obey. All humanity through history acknowledge some sort of morality, that they feel towards certain proposed actions the experiences expressed by the words, 'ought' or 'ought not'. True, most of the time humanity fails to live up to this, but we try, since all our actions are geared towards a certain idealism, as Hitler carefully noted this.

 

If one compares the moral teachings of Hindus, Greeks, Chinese, Babylonians, Egyptians, they might have differences on surface, but inside they all speak the same language. We differ with regard to whom we have to be selfish to, but always agree that we ought not put ourself first. Selfishness has never been admired, yet we don't live up to it. The moral laws do not change from culture to culture but their inrepretations or how they react to it or express it change. Any form of relativism ultimately creates its own negation. If someone says that one form of morality is better than another they are in effect saying one of them conforms to the standard more than the other. You are infact comparing both to some real morality, admitting there is such a thing as a real right, independent of what people think and that some peoples ideas get nearer to that real right than others. Thus if your moral ideas are true and those of the Nazis are less true, there must as hell be something for them to be true about.

Edited by Anonymouse
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What arguements can support cultural relativism? I do not believe this is that case in reality, event though it may very much so seem that way in our society and the world as a whole.. Whats your take on it..??

 

--

 

I think there is cultural relativism, but the presence of cultural relativism does not mean that there are no absolute truths.

 

The assumptions are as follows, quoting from "The Elements of Moral Philosophy":

 

1) Different cultures have different moral codes.

2) Therefore, there is no objective "truth" in morality. Right and wrong are only matters of opinion, and opinions vary from culture to culture.

 

(end of quote)

 

However, the problem with jumping from (1) to (2) is that differing cultural norms do not imply that one is not right and the other wrong, unless one believes in the immediate punishment of wrong acts by God (and in this case, God is also "culturally" relative, so where do we go from there?).

 

gevo27 are you by any chance reading James Rachels' book? Just wondering because you gave the eskimo example, and it is also included in that book.

 

good topic.

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What arguements can support cultural relativism? I do not believe this is that case in reality, event though it may very much so seem that way in our society and the world as a whole.. Whats your take on it..??

 

--

 

I think there is cultural relativism, but the presence of cultural relativism does not mean that there are no absolute truths.

 

The assumptions are as follows, quoting from "The Elements of Moral Philosophy":

 

1) Different cultures have different moral codes.

2) Therefore, there is no objective "truth" in morality. Right and wrong are only matters of opinion, and opinions vary from culture to culture.

 

(end of quote)

 

However, the problem with jumping from (1) to (2) is that differing cultural norms do not imply that one is not right and the other wrong, unless one believes in the immediate punishment of wrong acts by God (and in this case, God is also "culturally" relative, so where do we go from there?).

 

gevo27 are you by any chance reading James Rachels' book? Just wondering because you gave the eskimo example, and it is also included in that book.

 

good topic.

I have read that book and more, yes the exkimo example was my favorite ;)

 

Where and which class you reading for, which schooll..

 

btw,, I couldnt remember the name of the dang book, lol.. i have it still. i couldnt find it either.. lol... but yeah good catch, iv read that book 1 or 2 years ago :)

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I did not read the whole thread because some guy brought God and morals into how someone can defend the idea of cultural relativism. Cultural relativism, by definition, defeats its own purpose. According to a cultural relativist, all cultures' views are correct in their own ways, so they would have to accept our opinion about them to have at least the same validity as their opinion about themselves. If they don't sincerely accept it, they are not real cultural relativists. I believe that unless someone is utterly lost in this world, would they accept the idea that the lifestyle they live is wrong only because someone else said so, even though they have no problems are far as they are concerned. Do you see how crazy it sounds to be a real cultural relativist?
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I did not read the whole thread because some guy brought God and morals into how someone can defend the idea of cultural relativism. Cultural relativism, by definition, defeats its own purpose. According to a cultural relativist, all cultures' views are correct in their own ways, so they would have to accept our opinion about them to have at least the same validity as their opinion about themselves. If they don't sincerely accept it, they are not real cultural relativists. I believe that unless someone is utterly lost in this world, would they accept the idea that the lifestyle they live is wrong only because someone else said so, even though they have no problems are far as they are concerned. Do you see how crazy it sounds to be a real cultural relativist?

LOL,, well, then we need a term that blends "cultural relativism" and "absolut moral code" hmmm... any suggestions???

 

Then that term would describe things btter no? lol

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moral codes are tainted by culture and expereinces...i believe that the morals one has is usually the product of ones culture~ namely religious beliefs and expereinces, therefore one doesnt expect that an "orthodox" muslim has the same morals as an orthodox christian or jew....

 

also what I believe is that all religions have one underlying cause and belief..they all believe in one god...and similar morals (not the orthodox/extreme religions...moderates) but they have a different name for their god, and according to their expereinces have differeing morals and judgements of other races/ethnicities/cultures/religions...

 

hopefully this post isnt going off topic here..just what i c it as...

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moral codes are tainted by culture and expereinces...i believe that the morals one has is usually the product of ones culture~ namely religious beliefs and expereinces, therefore one doesnt expect that an "orthodox" muslim has the same morals as an orthodox christian or jew....

 

also what I believe is that all religions have one underlying cause and belief..they all believe in one god...and similar morals (not the orthodox/extreme religions...moderates) but they have a different name for their god, and according to their expereinces have differeing morals and judgements of other races/ethnicities/cultures/religions...

 

hopefully this post isnt going off topic here..just what i c it as...

exactly why we need a new philosophy that blends both worlds together, cultural relativism and absolute moral code..

 

Im not saying that would be correct, but it will much better fit the situation of the world as is. :)

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I have a problem with cultural relativism because it doesn't leave room for moral progress or objection to certain practices. Even though moral codes are bound to societies does not mean we have to totally accept cultural relativism. If anything one can learn more about other societies and be more accepting with cultural relativism, but if accepted at face value not only can we not criticize our own soceities morals, but those of others as well.
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