Sasun Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Dan, then why are you forgiving? What is the point of your forgiveness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Well, I'm probably on the wrong foot here, but I know I'll be hated by many from the Armenian community. for my stance regarding the Genocide. The Genocide has acquired a near religious status amongst us Armenians, no different than the Holocaust© 1945 has for Jews. I mean the Holocaust has turned into a cash cow for Israel and survivors. It was because of the Holocaust, that Israel was established and the whole 'a land without a people was given to a people without a land'. Granted they had property rights violated but this is now what Norman Finklestein calls 'The Holocaust Industry', in his book titled 'The Holocaust Industry'. I wouldn't want the suffering of our grandparents to morph into that level, but I can't see it going any other way. In an age of nationalism, political systems, and nation-states, politics reigns supreme and we are called upon to mobilize to mass minded thinking in majoritarian terms. Armenians are of the persuasion that Turkey must accept the Genocide, money owed repaid, and lands returned. Unfortunately history doesn't work that way. It has shown that might is right. Currently there are laws in France, Germany, and Canada that make it illegal to question the veracity of the Holocaust© 1945. I have come across many Armenians who would want to create such laws in effect curtailing free speech to make people not deny the Armenian Genocide. When someone is a Genocide Denier, or a Holocaust Denier, that ignores the fact that those who are "denying" are merely questioning or not accepting certain claims in what is referred to as "Holocaust" or "Genocide". Since these events, as all history, are not a point in time, but rather a process or series of events, it would be a gross mutation of semantics to label one all encompasing term to someone who doesn't see it fit. Currently, the Armenian Genocide is keeping Armenians in the States preoccupied with which candidate to support based on which candidate keeps sugar coating words and promising the Armenian lobbyists this or that. Even in this 'election' race, I don't know who to laff at, the politicians making the promises, or the people that are still being duped and following them? Now I'm no expert here, but if Armenians seek to accomplish their hands, their only option is to adopt a form of strict national government, breed in numbers, and overwhelm and take back what was theirs by force. Otherwise Armenians are beating a dead a horse. My two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 (edited) Dan, then why are you forgiving? What is the point of your forgiveness? Why am I forgiving? Good question. Hard to answer. But I'll take a stab at it anyway. I am forgiving because I can. I am forgiving because I want to. I am forgiving because just like we expect them to recognise their wrong deeds, I have a need to understand their position. Think about how hard it is to admit you were wrong. Or at least for me it is. The reason the genocide has not been recognised is because people refuse to accept that their people were wrong. That their "government" was wrong. It's not because they truly believe that those documents are fake. A lot of Turks, in fact, recognise the Armenian genocide. The collective ego, however, is what is standing in the way of the recognition, in addition to the issue of money and reparation payments. I forgive because I choose to let go of the hatred and do something constructive about it -- such as bringing justice to the perpetrators (in this case, I think they're all dead by now) -- it's not about silencing those who deny the genocide (like what's being done to Ernst Zundel, the holocaust REVISIONIST) with the iron fist of "free speech"... This whole Armenian genocide issue has become a childish play masked by 'politics', a childish play of he-said, she-said: it has become a game of stubbornness on both sides -- stubbornness to admit, and stubbornness to forgive. It's just like a child who wants something just because you said 'no' and the other way around.. I don't know if you get the point i'm trying to make.. i hope you do. anyhow, i think this is going in circles. i think each person should look into their own conscience and think about this whole issue. because if everyone did that, we wouldn't be having this problem. edit: rat, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. I have been called a holocaust denier, and i've been told by many Armenians that i couldn't and shouldn't be a holocaust denier (/revisionist) because it has happened to my own people, etc. that's the biggest fallacy i've ever heard (of). what i've been trying to say all along about how "base" it is to demand reparation payments or to even think about it coincides with what you mentioned as the "holocaust industry." and it is sad. and you are quite right about the freedom of speech part. in fact, in Germany today, it is illegal to wear a swastika necklace or to even talk about Nazism. White Nationalists are persecuted, even on the internet, by the German government. no matter what, i don't want to see that happening in the case of the Armenian genocide, be it good or bad for national interests. freedom of speech is freedom of speech. period. once it falls short of freedom of speech, it is no longer freedom of speech.. Edited January 31, 2004 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Thanks for your explanation Dan but that was not what I was asking. Not a big deal anyway, people have different ethics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Thanks for your explanation Dan but that was not what I was asking. Not a big deal anyway, people have different ethics. Ouch! You're telling me I answered the wrong question?!?! Damn, I guess I wasted umm half an hour writing that stuff then. But that's fine... I guess we don't understand each other on this issue very well. But I respect your views. I just hope that what rat said isn't (or doesn't become) true in the case of the Armenian genocide.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Ouch! You're telling me I answered the wrong question?!?! Damn, I guess I wasted umm half an hour writing that stuff then. But that's fine... I guess we don't understand each other on this issue very well. But I respect your views. I just hope that what rat said isn't (or doesn't become) true in the case of the Armenian genocide.. Hey don't worry dude it was not a waste of time, you made some valid points. Yeah Dan I often sense a disconnect between my questions and your answers Perhaps we should both pay more attention but may I note that you usually pay really little attention to the questions in our beloved forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Hey don't worry dude it was not a waste of time, you made some valid points. Yeah Dan I often sense a disconnect between my questions and your answers Perhaps we should both pay more attention but may I note that you usually pay really little attention to the questions in our beloved forum Yes. I guess having Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder doesn't help much, does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Holocaust©... Well Anon, I have to disagree on some of your points... perhaps in some other thread I will debate against your points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 (edited) Anonymouse...I sort of agree with you to a certain extent. Yes we can stop protesting, but why should we stop? I mean are we not the victims? This is like robbing a bank and the victim is sentenced insted of the robber. Armenian Genocide if left unresolved would hurt Armenians even further then it already has... 1) They...TURKS can do it again... 2) They get away with a crime 3) THEY CHANGE HISTORY How can you change history? How can this be? Ok so where do we draw the line? 4) WE CAN NOT BARGIN WITH TURKS BECAUSE THEY WANT EVERYTHING! a. Claim to lands droped. b. Claims to property droped. c. Claims to a Genocide droped. d. Claims to the Art/Karabagh droped. THEY WANT EVERYTHING IN THEIR FAVOR...WTF do we get? We get 1.5 million dead We get more Armenians who are refugess We get our History changed We lose our Lands and identity WE LOSE EVERYTHING .... HOW IS THIS FAIR? HOW CAN WE SETTLE FOR THIS? WE MAY EXPERIENCE ANOTHER GENOCIDE...WE MAY EXPERIENCE IT AGAIN BECAUSE THE WORLD FAILED TO ADDRESS IT THE FIRST TIME...because the world forgot about us...because the world destroyed us. Now...let me ask you how is forgetting about the genocide going to make things better? BUT... I personally feel like this has become a joke and has esculated to a point where it has become a travisty. Armenians are not fighting to record history, but also they are fighting a uphill battle. The world does not want the Genocide to be recorded because they made a deal with property that was not theirs to begin with. Do you honestly think that America or the world does not know the truth? They are trying to create a new world order with the bones of Armenians. Everyone is involved...Turkey for commiting the crime...America for barginning with our dead...Russians, Europeans, Asians, and the rest... They sold out Armenians for oil...they traded the cheapest commodity the world has to offer...flesh. The deal was 1.5 million Armenians for the right to carry oil through Turkey and that is why America/Europe is so hesitint to admit it. It was NEVER a mistake stratigically, but it was unethical, wrong, and barbaric. This pattern of events has repeated several times... in the case of the Jews they gave them land so the west had another foot in the door incase the other one was cut off. World Polotik...you gotta love the means to the end. NOW TURKEY IS TRYING TO SEPERATE ARMENIANS... DIASPERA VS ARMENIANS..."YES THE DIASPERA PERSISTS WITH THEIR CLAIMS"... "When I die and am on my way to heaven I will personally try to spit on God for forgetting the one group of people that have devoted 1700 years to this one god even if it means burning in hell with the rest of the world." The time will come and the tables will turn because "If they will do it for you they will do it to you". Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 freedom of speech is freedom of speech. period. once it falls short of freedom of speech, it is no longer freedom of speech.. Excuse me? While there is certainly freedom of speach, this freedom has it's boundaries. These boundaries are called racism and discrimination. So you're telling me we can say anything we want about any people and not get punished for it? A great society that would be. Yeah, skinhead's are persecuted. And they should be. Freedom of speech does not include growing hatred towards members of another ethnical/racial group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted January 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Hey Dan, I do not hate Turks, and for this reason Gamavor calls me Mehmet or Moshe in this forum. I look at thngs this way. I was raised in a houshold where my paternal grandmother was mentally ill. Something snapped in her mind shortly after her experiences during the Genocide. She lost not only her husband, parents and sisters with their families but her station in life. At 24, the rug was pulled out from under her. She had never known anything else but being a member of the pampered class. Those who come from humble beginings and rise to great heights easily make the adjustment (usually). Those who fall form great heights to a meager existence rarely do. My Dad had to be pulled out of his private school in Germany and went to work employed as a porter in Paris. Yes, my grandfather, all my great-grandparents and other members of the family were killed, but the damage did not stop there. When we would visit my Mom's mother, we realized that she would have nightmares in the middle of the night, bone-chilling screams about her rememberances of the Genocide. This was many decades after the Genocide. I have worked very hard to overcome the ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) that struggled with in my youth. I have worked very hard in my career. Yet the residue of the Genocide still sits with my brother and me. We were raised in a family of truamatized people. No one can bring back our dead. The only thing that can be returned is our dignity. The Turks tout my family member as an example of Turkish magnanity. The least they can do is to give the descendants of this person back their history and what they stole from his family financially and historically. They have neutralized our history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 While there is certainly freedom of speach, this freedom has it's boundaries. These boundaries are called racism and discrimination. oh don't give me that BS. you sounded JUST like Bush when you said that. Yeah, skinhead's are persecuted. And they should be. Freedom of speech does not include growing hatred towards members of another ethnical/racial group. First off, racialists are not racists. Why is it that those who want to set up a white pride movement get persecuted while those who have black pride, jewish pride, gay pride are not? freedom of speech alright, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 America-Hye, I am really sorry for your family and the horrible experiences they had to go through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 First off, racialists are not racists. Why is it that those who want to set up a white pride movement get persecuted while those who have black pride, jewish pride, gay pride are not? freedom of speech alright, huh? They have been and they should be now. Also, black pride/jewish pride does not necessarily involve hatred for others while WP/Neo-Nazism certainly does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted January 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Anoushik, Thank you for your sensitivity. They were not alone. May other had similar problems. Just because one did not die in the Genocide does not mean that they were not emotionally scarred for life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 (edited) Also, black pride/jewish pride does not necessarily involve hatred for others while WP/Neo-Nazism certainly does. uhuh. that's how the argument goes. because it's supposedly a movement of the "majority", it has to be racist. and last time i checked, white people weren't the majority anymore. not in their own countries even. Edited January 31, 2004 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 WE MAY EXPERIENCE ANOTHER GENOCIDE...WE MAY EXPERIENCE IT AGAIN BECAUSE THE WORLD FAILED TO ADDRESS IT THE FIRST TIME Yes, that is exactly why we saw the genocide in Rwanda.. exactly because the Nazis "got away with it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Yet the residue of the Genocide still sits with my brother and me. We were raised in a family of truamatized people. No one can bring back our dead. The only thing that can be returned is our dignity. The Turks tout my family member as an example of Turkish magnanity. The least they can do is to give the descendants of this person back their history and what they stole from his family financially and historically. They have neutralized our history. A-H, yes, you are right about that -- but you're not getting my point -- that money will only debase our cause. But I guess people differ in their personality traits. I would NOT become homeless and beg for a coupla bucks from here and there, even if I know that I'm going to starve to death, and even if I AM forced to live on the streets. I would NOT beg. And I could argue that homelessness is a social problem that should be addressed by society, because it's everyone's right to have liveable conditions. So it's not a matter of rights. You're going to tell me that they took away our rights (financially speaking), but what I'm trying to say is that when it is coupled with massacres/genocide, the financial aspect to it becomes VERY minor compared to the emotional/traumatic aspect you were referring to, even if the trauma was caused by a loss of money and the ability to survive.. What I'm trying to say is that... if it were only about theft of Armenian property/money on a mass-scale basis, the financial aspect would then be valid and could be addressed for justice to be achieved, but justice in the case of the Armenian genocide, is, for me, justice based on the killings rather than the act of deportation from their homes/houses alone. I don't know if you're getting my point at all.. I guess I'm not too good at getting my point across and answering people's questions.. *sigh* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted January 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Dan , I understand the point that you are trying to make. If it were a choice between bring the dead back OR getting compensation I would definately opt for getting the dead back. I disagree with you that restitution of properties will in any way debase the memory of those killed. Reparartions however will, this being payment for the lives of the dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Dan , I understand the point that you are trying to make. If it were a choice between bring the dead back OR getting compensation I would definately opt for getting the dead back. I disagree with you that restitution of properties will in any way debase the memory of those killed. Reparartions however will, this being payment for the lives of the dead. America-Hye, I am not talking about bringing the dead back. We can't. I'm talking about "compensation"/"reparation" payments. Restitution is another issue altogether, although all three words are frequently used as synonyms -- in this case, they're not, because there is a difference in intentions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted January 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 OK, now we are in concert. That is why understanding the nuances of each language are SO VERY important. I claim to know only conversational Armenian. I leave the important issues to the Oskanyan's who know the nuances of he Armenian language. I do not claim to be a Matenadaran scholar, but I know the nuances of English. How many here can honestly make that claim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 I do not claim to be a Matenadaran scholar, but I know the nuances of English. How many here can honestly make that claim? I probably wouldn't claim to know all the small details and differences between words in the English language, although I've practically spent all my life hearing/speaking the language lol. Hence why I use dictionary.com all the time. As for my Armenian, it's not too good, although I know how to speak, read, and write. It's good to know that we have cleared up the disagreement lol. At least I got my point across to others this time.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 They have been and they should be now. Also, black pride/jewish pride does not necessarily involve hatred for others while WP/Neo-Nazism certainly does. Maybe you haven't heard of these people called Zionists? Yea um these Jews hate you for being a goy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 Like I said, if Armenians want to turn the tides, have everyone emigrate back to Armenia, grow in numbers, and take back what was theirs by force. If not, then there is no point. Israel was established by force. History has shown that might is right. The peaceful way to things never solved anything. Working "within the system" only gets you a closed door. But then again, how many Armenians are willing to leave the nice material life they have in the diaspora and go back to Armenia? If you want change, it must begin first by individuals and ourselves, not Turks, not America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 (edited) But then again, how many Armenians are willing to leave the nice material life they have in the diaspora and go back to Armenia? I don't. I don't want to go to Armenia (to live there). My reasons are not like others' in many ways though, although not unmaterialistic. I've moved way too often, and all I want is to settle down and get something solid going on in my life. And I'm sure there are many Armenians out there who feel the same way, moving from one country to another, immigration, etc. And of course, the movement away from Europe and that entire region in particular TO North America is very popular these days -- everyone wants to go to USA/Canada, even those in Armenia. So I'm not sure if we could blame people who don't want to go back. But at the same time, I don't speak out too loud about returning our lands. How many people would actually go and LIVE in the lands that historically belonged to Armenia if they're handed over by the Turks anyway? I bet the numbers would be VERY low. But then again, it takes few courageous men and women to start building communities. I don't know... I guess I am in a way like the others -hypocritical - but at the same time I have my personal reasons for it, other than the "oh, I have a nice comfortable house in California, why would I leave and go back to Armenia? What does Armenia offer me that USA doesn't?" (the last sentence was actually said by someone on this board, I'm not going to mention their name). And I don't claim to be different in my intentions/wants/plans for the future, but just to say that shows that it is, in a way, pointless to demand more land, etc. edit: I don't know if what I'm saying makes sense at all. I'm not re-reading what I wrote, because I'm sure I would find it redundant.. but I hope I did get my point across again. Edited February 1, 2004 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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