America-Hye Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 When the Turkish government recognizes the property rights of the survivors of the Genocide and their families, only then can bygones be bygones. How convenient for him and his cronies, as the elite in Turkey is sitting on Armenian wealth confiscated by their grandparents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 I think we're entering the new stage of genocide denial here. After new revisionism and as time passes Turk now come with the genius argument that it happened to long ago for anybody to care. 'We should let the past rest and be friends'. Unfortunately there is a growing number of Armenians as well who thinks this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Heh, let's see how jews would answer that had they been told that bygones were bygones and that there'd be no reparation payments for the survivors... >< Â As for the issue of reparation payments, I am afraid I don't approve of it... Because it brings our ancestors who were massacred down to the level of money and materialism -- the issue of the genocide is far more serious than a bunch of reparation payments and checks wired to survivors.. I don't really care if they give reparation payments or not, as long as they recognise the Armenian Genocide. Â Am I the only one who's against reparation payments (considering how much time has passed on the genocide and how little effect it would now have..?) Besides, it's like saying "yeah, I killed your grandparents, but here, take this money for reparation." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Reparation payment is a way of showing that you regret your acts and recognize the other's plights. The Turks are not a people who would recognize the genocide and not pay reparation payments. They, unfortunately, understand very little of moral issues and the importance of recognition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Reparation payment is a way of showing that you regret your acts and recognize the other's plights. The Turks are not a people who would recognize the genocide and not pay reparation payments. They, unfortunately, understand very little of moral issues and the importance of recognition. So paying money to show that you deeply regret someone's death...? It's actually quite offensive... I would not accept it, no matter what my financial circumstances were/are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 (edited) Paying money to say that it happened. Don't you think it's weird when they'd say: "Yes we killed your ancestors and took your belongings. We admit we did it, but you can kiss your stuff goodbye. We've enriched ourselves with it." I think that's even more offensive. Edited January 29, 2004 by gurgen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 (edited) gurgen (thanks to Sasun for the correction lol), i don't care about the stuff that was gone when it happened. it was a long time ago and material things fade away from memory, but the memory of the human being remains. equating the human being to the material things such as the house, the furniture, etc. is degrading and offensive, IMO. May I remind you that the central issue to the genocide was not the fact that they stole our belongings, but that they raped, killed, massacred our ancestors. gamavor, you'd know what i'm talking about if someone close to you has died / been killed. an example of that would be: if someone gets robbed and killed because he's carrying a laptop with him, would the victim's family want the criminal to pay the amount of money that the laptop was worth? they probably don't care. i wouldn't. Edited January 29, 2004 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Dan, in any justice system reparation is part of justice. Â BTW, it is not Gamavor but Gurgen who you are talking to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 BTW, it is not Gamavor but Gurgen who you are talking to Ooops, thanks for pointing that out, Sasun lol.. Â Dan, in any justice system reparation is part of justice. Sasun -- justice systems do not work on the same level as personal justice. And laws/systems are not always just/right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Sasun -- justice systems do not work on the same level as personal justice. And laws/systems are not always just/right. What do you mean Dan? Genocide is a personal justice??? and what is wrong with a justice that takes the stolen property from the thief and gives it back to who it belongs to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 What do you mean Dan? Genocide is a personal justice??? and what is wrong with a justice that takes the stolen property from the thief and gives it back to who it belongs to? Noooo.. Sasun, you misinterpreted my post.. Hmm, let me re-phrase that.. justice when it comes to punishing genocide is a very personal issue (albeit on a national level). By personal I don't mean on an "individual" basis.. err, I don't know how to explain it.. lol. I hope you got the idea..? Â There's nothing wrong with taking the property from the thief and returning it to the victim of the robbery, just that when it is coupled with murder/genocide, it becomes very...... uhhh... minor (compared to the massacres..), and I really think that coupling reparation payments with recognition of genocide is offensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koko Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Actually it wasnt a long time ago. Armenians who have belongings in turkey, housees etc. have trouble with the turkish goverment , I have heard of cases were they are neglected there right to their parents or families property. its not a few rich armenians properties we are discussing. It is our hole rich history, our culture, and lands that we have been deprived of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 (edited) Our lands? OK.. but if you expect them to return us our lands........ then mmhmm, no comment.. Â btw, koko, I am talking about reparation payments on a mass scale... Edited January 30, 2004 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grig75 Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 It is a viscous cycle. Accepting the genocide will automatically brings a reparation programs (money, houses, lands etc). When Kol went to Israel and took his hat and bowed to jewish people, he was not offering money, he was apologizing for his countrymen who did it. Then he went back and it took years to establish reparative programs (money, houses, citizenships etc). Turkey must accept what they have done. That is the thing, if they accept it, tey will be forced to establish reparation programs. But this speech of Dick Cheney really bothers me. He asked UN to accept Turkey. They definitely have their interests there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
America-Hye Posted January 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 RESTITION not reparation. Restoring confiscated property. If we could bring all these people back from the dead plus their families who would have been born in the last 89 years, I would say great. Dan you want to let these Turks enjoy the fruits of their misdeeds? Armenians should just forgive and forget? I suggest that we come to your house and clean you and your family out and then ask you to forgive and forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 gurgen (thanks to Sasun for the correction lol), i don't care about the stuff that was gone when it happened. it was a long time ago and material things fade away from memory, but the memory of the human being remains. equating the human being to the material things such as the house, the furniture, etc. is degrading and offensive, IMO. May I remind you that the central issue to the genocide was not the fact that they stole our belongings, but that they raped, killed, massacred our ancestors. gamavor, you'd know what i'm talking about if someone close to you has died / been killed. an example of that would be: if someone gets robbed and killed because he's carrying a laptop with him, would the victim's family want the criminal to pay the amount of money that the laptop was worth? they probably don't care. i wouldn't. They can't bring back our ancestors. They can't return their lives. They can, however, give us our property back, and I think they should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grig75 Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 RESTITION not reparation. Restoring confiscated property. If we could bring all these people back from the dead plus their families who would have been born in the last 89 years, I would say great. Dan you want to let these Turks enjoy the fruits of their misdeeds? Armenians should just forgive and forget? I suggest that we come to your house and clean you and your family out and then ask you to forgive and forget. I think reparation is the correct word to use here. Reparation- offering expiation, or giving satisfaction for a wrong or injury, compensation in money or materials payable for damages. And it is not restition, it is restitution- a restoration of something to its rightful owner (which is not a bad idea, but I think it is almost impossibble). And I am absolutely agree with you, no forgiveness for them. No nation should be forgiven for genocide of the other nation. I am not suggesting to be hostile to every turk you meet. But, it shoulld be brought to the point thst turkish goverment accepts it, and if they do, then they will start to teach children the correct history and not falsified. Then, the new generation will be raised with knowledge of it, and probably with the respect to armenian nation. I don't want make any comments here about the Jews in Germany because I don't know much about it. But I think they feel pretty comfortable there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 America-Hye, thanks for the correction. Restitution is what I had in mind, but both restitution, reparation and formal apologies are due. Those who are willing to forgive and not asking anything it is fine, but you can't forgive for the crimes that were not done to you, and you can't require the other victims to forgive just because you feel like it. And most importantly, the Turks are not feeling sorry or even acknowledging any wrongdoing, how can we ever forgive them? It would be a ridiculous insult to the idea of justice, and an insult to our ancestors. I am ready to forgive if they acknowledge and apologize and I personally have no material claims. As a nation however I think we do have all kinds of claims to stolen land and property. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 (edited) Those who are willing to forgive and not asking anything it is fine, but you can't forgive for the crimes that were not done to you, and you can't require the other victims to forgive just because you feel like it. Sasun, what are you talking about? Are you implying that my relatives weren't massacred? My grandmother's mother was a survivor of the genocide, and she lost all her family and property...  Dan you want to let these Turks enjoy the fruits of their misdeeds? Armenians should just forgive and forget? I suggest that we come to your house and clean you and your family out and then ask you to forgive and forget. A-H, do you have ANY clue as to what you're talking about? For starters, may I suggest that you go back and READ (not re-read, since you obviously didn't read my posts) my posts? I never said we should just forgive and forget. Definitely not the forget part. Forgetting doesn't come with recognition. It doesn't mean that once it is recognised, the burden of memory is off our shoulders. As for forgiveness, I think it's something everyone should do, regardless of what has happened to them or their loved ones. The heart is a resilient muscle, and believe me, hatred doesn't help at all. You can forgive them but demand justice at the same time. You can forgive them and still remember. I've forgiven those who have hurt me. I've forgiven a lot of people. Some of them didn't pay for what they had done. And they never will. But I still forgive. And I do try to bring justice, even after I've forgiven. Justice and forgiveness are two different things. For me anyway. I think you, and a lot of Armenians, are so full of hatred towards Turks (and understandably so), that you find it hard to tolerate the presence of an Armenian who does not hate them. And that certainly doesn't mean that none of my ancestors were massacred (because they were, and even though I don't know who they were, and those who survived are long dead now and I never got the chance to meet them, I do feel their pain in seeing their family and relatives being killed in front of their eyes, and I do feel at a loss for words, and sometimes I do feel the anger rising inside me at what was done, but... I also think that there is no gain in hatred - let us not be so hateful like the Turks were. Let us not be depicted as so hateful that we would readily massacre Turks if we had the chance to... because the amount of hatred and antipathy some people have for Turks cannot be expressed in words.. and so I'm not gonna go there.. but - forgiveness is a great thing). I know I can't really FEEL what they went through - the best I can do is put myself in their situation hypothetically, and think about what *I* would've done and what *I* would've wanted as part of justice. And I don't think I would've wanted any property. And comparing that to an example of a thief and returning the property back to the victim of the robbery is not a very good/relevant one, because it does not involve killing a person. Killing someone (or entire families) is taking away something that cannot be replaced through property or anything else for that matter. It can be accepted as part of reality (because it happened), but that's all that one can do, other than bringing the perpetrator(s) to justice. But you will always have that sense of loss, that sense of being emotionally injured. It won't go away. Just like rape. Just like seeing someone being killed in front of you. I've seen people dying in front of me. I've seen blood. And there is something in me that cannot be returned, no matter how much materialistic justice was given.. I respect your views about wanting the stolen land and property returned, but I don't agree, because I don't consider that the main issue at stake - in fact, I consider that something base. Anyone who has seen a loved one die (or killed, not by genocide), more importantly, a loved one they KNEW personally, would probably UNDERSTAND where I'm coming from (not necessarily agree with). At the end of the day, it's really up to you (as individuals) to forgive or not. I am simply stating my feelings on this issue, and I'm not implying that everyone should forgive. I am fully aware that some people are unable to do so for their own reasons, and I understand. Edited January 30, 2004 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Sasun, what are you talking about? Are you implying that my relatives weren't massacred? My grandmother's mother was a survivor of the genocide, and she lost all her family and property... No Dan, you got that wrong. I am saying that it is not just about your acnestors or somebody else's ancestors. It is a collective thing. You may personally forgive but you can't expect or require others to forgive for their ancestors. Besides it is not about just ancestors, its a national issue. Â Justice and forgiveness are different things, agreed. Both are important. If you forgive then there is no need for justice. If you claim to forgive then bring them to justice that means you have not forgiven. Â In our case, those who were the actual people doing the atrocities are long dead. So there can't be (earthly) justice for them. Those who are denying the Genocide are not guilty of doing it but are guilty of denying, falsely accusing us of a massacres and other things related. For the contemporary Turkey we can choose justice or forgiveness. I wouldn't forgive them because they have never admitted of guilt. I would seek justice. If I forgive them then I will be forfeiting my moral right to justice. My conscience tells me to pursue justice for the sake of our ancestors and for the sake of justice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 (edited) If you forgive then there is no need for justice. If you claim to forgive then bring them to justice that means you have not forgiven. I disagree on that one, Sasun. Justice is a concept independent of forgiveness. Justice is static. Either you have it or you don't. Killing is either right or wrong -- it can't be both right and wrong. And I think it's wrong (although some would disagree), and hence why justice should come into play, regardless of whether or not forgiveness exists.  http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=justice I guess it's hard to understand how someone can bring someone to court for a murder or some such, having forgiven them... it's not about grudges or anger or anything of the sort. it's about the notion of justice independent of everything else. whether or not you forgive someone in your heart is not the state's issue in punishing someone. forgiveness is a personal issue (not individually -- there is something called collective conscience and forgiveness). http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forgive Forgiveness does not mean "it's ok to do it." Note that you are talking about "excusing" Turks for what they've done (not forgiving) -- excusing means to pass over a fault without demanding punishment. Edited January 30, 2004 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Dan, think deeply, actually try to feel it. What is your forgiveness worth if you are going to punish the criminal? Nobody will buy that kind of forgivenss. It would be a fake forgiveness then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Dan, think deeply, actually try to feel it. What is your forgiveness worth if you are going to punish the criminal? Nobody will buy that kind of forgivenss. It would be a fake forgiveness then. Sasun, forgiveness is not a public act. It is not done FOR the public, and it certainly is not something that should be done to be applauded/praised for. It is something that each and every person has to do in their own hearts. As for national forgiveness, it is manifested by "accepting the apology." Collective forgiveness can only happen when people realise that this cycle of hatred should not go on, because it might set the stage for another such genocide in the future, if/when international politics changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Dan, you didn' get my point. I am not talking about the public, the person who you are forgiving will not buy it if you are going to judge him afterwards. It has no value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Dan, you didn' get my point. I am not talking about the public, the person who you are forgiving will not buy it if you are going to judge him afterwards. It has no value. Sasun -- who cares if they are going to buy it. If they want to accept my forgiveness, they can. it's about conscience!! they shoud know that doing something wrong cannot be ignored when it comes to justice. forgiveness is something positive that they can get from this whole thing. it's a privilege, not a right. and justice for the victims is a right, not a privilege. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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