Principles of resolution of Armenian-Turkish Knot

[aurguplu]

khodja,

 

that prominent turk who asked your grandmother to marry him disgusted me. was he one of the murderers or was it a normal relationship between two people, and who was it, if it is not too private to ask?

 

(please forgive my imprudence in advance if i invaded a personal domain. this was not the intention)

[THOTH]

Ali Suat -

 

as always very well said. Your perspective is refreshing and I think a correct one. Over all I do not have any fault with any aspect of these recent statements of yours. We need more (Turks) like you I think - and more Armenians who understand and appreciate such and who understand the limits of what might be possible. Just the same - the actions of your government in regard to the Armenian Genocide recogntion (etc) still suck (and I'm sure you understand this) - and must be opposed - just had to say it just the same...

 

Winston

[khodja]

Dear Ali,

 

You have an excellent understanding of the situation. Perpetuation of hostilities is not in the best interests of either nation.

I have had close Turkish acquaintances who mistakenly believed that I harbored thoughts of harming them, since I was Armenian. When I told them my family background, their indoctrination in Turkey made them mistakenly believe that my family had betrayed the Ottoman Turkish state, while some Armenians consider any Armenian who assisted the economic well- being of the Turkish state as a traitor. If I was at the liberty to divulge my identity, you would understand what I relate. My family members were at the pinnacle of Ottoman life despite their Armenian nationality.

[aurguplu]

edward,

 

abou three million oghuz turks came into anatolia one the eve of malazgirt (manzikert), and they were the most skilled fighters of the age (they were so skilled that the arabs had to use other turkish tribes aginst the seljuks whenever necessary, a policy that soon brought the end of arab domination in the islamic world, since the mercenaries conquered their overlords).

 

the armenians, though good soldiers by the standards of the area, were trained as heavily armoured close-range fighters with lances, and heavy, double-edged swords. they had no hope against the armour piercing, long-range bows and single-edged, crescent shaped lighter swords of the turks, and especially the tough breed of mongolian-type small horses of the turks which were trained to fight the opponent's horse in close-range battle as the mounted warrior was fighting the opponent. this was simply superior military technique and technology.

 

that the armenians might have pitied, despised the wretched incoming shepherds and could not figure out the danger they posed (by your account, if i understand correctly) only serves to remind you of pride being one of the seven deadly sins.

 

in contrast, we turks have learnt never to underestimate our enemy, and at times when we forgot it, we paid the due price with our lives and states, the last example being the ottoman empire.

 

we do not underestimate you. we do not overestimate you, either. we are fully aware of the financial, intellectual and technological capabilities of the republic of armenia and the armenian diaspora (i would venture to say even more than many armenians, since this is a security issuefor us). you have no chances to catch us unprepared.

 

as for syrian and french claims on cilicia, the syrians can kiss my turkish ass, and the french claims, i have never heard of them.

 

we are here to stay, and everyone concerned is to accept this, for they do not have the sheer power to throw us out, as they must have gotten it by now after world war one.

 

who says this? me and my sword. come'n taste it if you want.

[aurguplu]

khodja,

 

i have an impression of you that you are inclined and capable of contributing to a constructive dialogue significantly. would you do so in other platforms if the opportuntity arises?

 

i belong to a group of people who are trying to do that more face-to-fae.

 

regards,

 

ali suat

[khodja]

Ali,

 

I firmly believe in dialog. I wish to learn more about my family's history. I do have trepidation, however, since in the past the Turks I communicated with had such a distorted picture of prominent Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. I also fear some of my fellow Armenians who see any such dialog as being traitorous. The events of October 27, 1999 are always in my mind, especially in view of what transpired this week in New York and Washington. I owe it to the memory of my ancestors to accept your offer. Turkish schoolchildren should learn the full history of the Ottoman era of which the Armenians were an integral part. Both peoples must bury their myths.

[aurguplu]

dear khodja,

 

if i understand correctly, you would be prepared to accept assistance in learning more about your family's history, and if that's O.K. with you, i am prepared to do what i can to be of help. i know a few armenians, there is an armenian colleague in the firm where i am working, i had an armenian intern who was from the famous balyan family (the ones that built the dolmabahçe palace and quite a few other things), my uncle has quite a few armenian families from the island, i have an armenian friend, a sociologist at a turkish university, another friend whose wife (a turkish lady) is a childhood friend of mine, so i am - i hope - quite able to do a thing or two.

 

my e-mail is aurguplu@yahoo.com, if you prefer to contact me in private.

 

given the extremely delicate nature of the issue, let me assure you that i will not be offended if you decline my offer, and carry on with the dialogue as before.

 

regards,

 

ali suat

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:
winston,

turkey is currently ostensibly ruled by a coalition of senile third-world communists going around in diapers, the modern versions of the thugs of talat, and a bunch of professional crooks, and really by the army behind the scenes. so what do you expect them to be like?

---

Well - I'm sure its not quite this bad - though it is clear that much of the Turkish leadership lives in or are ruled by a vision of the past. The legacy of Ataturk cuts both ways at times I think. I don't discount that Turkey is in a very dangerous neighborhood and is subject to stresses - internal and external - that require viliagence. There is a great amount of overeaction and abuse as well...

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:
still, as i had said in earlier postings: things are changing: i had openly said in quite a few turkish gatherings (some political ones) that the genocide did occur and that we would get nowhere in armeno-turkish relations without adequately addressing this issue. i said this numerous times where ex-military types had been present, and i am still alive and well, and have not been harrassed a bit by anyone. turkish armenians have openly said in television programmes that there was a drama that their people had gone through that was not adequately addressed (hrant dink of agos), and they urged the government to say something (the patriarch). things are changing, and faster than we might think.

---

I understand that things are changig (yet somehow officially and even unofficially they are also largely the same.) Certainy, as you attest, there has been some lightening of prohibitions for just discussing the issue. When i visited Turkey in 1992 I talked to many Turks frankly concerning the genocide - and many expressed condolences to my family and sorrow - others, of course were defensive and blaming of Armenians...

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:

and at these times of change, we need intelligent individuals capable of starting - and sustaining - constructive dialogue until peace is finally made.

---

agreed

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:

we must also not forget that the peace effort will hurt a number of people on both sides financially and professionally (i mean the genocide industry of the armenians and the "we are under attack" industry of the turks), and these people will do their best to turn the clock back (i am horrified to find myself saying that, but they may attempt to turn it back to 1915).

---

Yes, these are forces that will do what they can to maintain status quo - they will cause problems I know...

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:

what i am going to say now may shock some, but my working knowledge of the issue, acquaintance with the political and other state structures of turkey, tell me that the army can actually play the decisive role in the rapprochement, if they see the perceived threat to turkish territorial integrity gone for good.

---

Well, I don't see any credible threat against Turkish territory from the Armenian perspective. Sure many individuals talk of return of lands - this is just not practical and will likely never happen. I think Armenians that think this will occur are deluding themselves and Turks (such as your army) that fear such are equally delusional and paranoid. I have often argued with Armenians concerning what Armenians would really return from their wealthy lives here in the West to the scrublands of Eastern Anatolia etc? Armenians are ultimatly a practical people - where is the good business in this? I don't see it on any significant basis (Armenians are already fleeing Armenian in great numbers). I think that Armenians and Turks must look to other avenues for accomadations. But what has been done cannot be undone - but at the very least it needs to be acknowledged..

quote:

---

Originally posted by aurguplu:

for anyone interested, this might be an interesting discussion.

---

Very much so - Armenians need to better articulate what it is that they really want - what will satisfy them. Turks need to be less automatically paranoid and defensive in general - thinking immediatly that Armenians are somehow only after "their" lands - etc

[aurguplu]

dear winston,

 

i agree with almost everything that you say. the only thing that i disagree about - and only partly at that - is the perceived threat on territorial integrity.

 

turkish authorities fear that if you let the armenians resettle in turkey and buy land, they will do their best to become a majority (by strenous efforts )) and then attempt to do the thing that jews did in palestine (extensive jewish settlement there had begun back in the 19th century with jews buying land, and arabs selling it).

 

several years ago armenian diaspora businessmen attempted to buy extensive tracts of land in eastern anatolia, which was promptly intervened by the government.

 

of course the difference there is that at that time palestine was ruled by the ottomans (and then the brits), so the arabs did not have the state authority to regulate the whole issue, and the two peoples were left with a mess when the brits pulled out.

 

frankly speaking, i see britain rather than the u.s. as the main culprit in this whole issue of the war in the middle east.

 

we have a responsibility toward the past victims and future generations to solve this problem in such a manner that our children do not inherit yet another war.

 

regards,

[edward demian]

By the way, the Armenians are not the only ones with claims to Cilicia. France has claims by way of the Lusignan Dynasty. Syria claims part of it too.

[MJ]

Dear Ali,

Could you elaborate in more details on the quoted above subject, please. I would like to precisely understand the underlying premise. Also, I recall you making some remarks about our side not addressing some of the issues raised by the Turkish side. In particular, those related to the letter of Nubar *****. I recall promising to get back on that issue - I wanted to check the date of the letter with that of the Sevres Treaty, and forgot it. Unfortunately, I don't remember where exactly your comments were made on this subject, and where was originally the letter referenced in the Hye Forum. Would appreciate your help.