DominO123 Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 (edited) I was wondering about this, since adult Chimpanzes would have the mental ages of a 5 years old kid, should Chimpanzes not be protected by the same laws? I mean, right to their dignitity, to their life etc... , think about that, retarted humans that have the mental age of a 5 years old are protected by everyone of those laws, why not our cousins the chimps? We are making experiences on them, would we allow those experiments being done on 5 years old kids? Edited December 18, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Interesting question Domino. But wouldn't much of the "rights' or considerations etc to a human 5 year old have to do with their potential for growth - that they are eveolving into an adult human etc? And frankly I'm not sure that a chimp is quite equivilent to a 5 year old. I mean at 5 my kids were playing chess, talking about history and current events - interacting verbally in general...and much more...are you sure that the 5 year old level is the correct comparision? And in general I'm not sure there is a direct ocmparision anyway - nor is mental level maybe the only standard... not saying that we shouldn't be concerned with being ethical (or whatever) towards chimps.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 (edited) Thoth, adult chmips can play basic chess games, has been done. The chimps genetically are near identical to us, they have a special place, even if they don't talk, the way an adult chimp act is very much like an 5 years old kid, has been already demonstrated by Jane Goodall observations. If your hypotheses is true, then a retarded human that we know will never evolve more than someone with a mental age of 5 years old should not be protected by those laws. Edited December 18, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Domino, a lot of the laws for humans would be irrelevant for chimps. I would say let's have certain "chimp rights" that would be a little less than human rights. They certainly should have the very basic right to live and be treated not in a cruel way, etc. but many human laws simply do not make sense for the chimps. There is an advantage for being a chimp, too. Suppose a chimp commits a crime, he wouldn't be put in jail, would he? So Domino, your poll doesn't have my answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Domino, a lot of the laws for humans would be irrelevant for chimps. I would say let's have certain "chimp rights" that would be a little less than human rights. They certainly should have the very basic right to live and be treated not in a cruel way, etc. but many human laws simply do not make sense for the chimps. There is an advantage for being a chimp, too. Suppose a chimp commits a crime, he wouldn't be put in jail, would he? True, but those laws won't be applied to mentaly retarted individuals as well, what I ask, is why should chimps not be considered as much as a mentaly retarted humans. I think they could serve us a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 True, but those laws won't be applied to mentaly retarted individuals as well, what I ask, is why should chimps not be considered as much as a mentaly retarted humans. I think they could serve us a lot. Well, why not? I am not sure how different are the laws for mentally retarded people from normal people, I am guessing not much. But what is the problem Domino? any chimp's complaining about their rights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Maybe so Domino...but what do you mean by "serve" - as in slaves/sevitude..etc...have you ever watched any of the "planet of the Apes" movies?...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Sasun, if they had language they will. Thoth, serve is not used only for slavery, serves means more like their interaction with humans. As for the planet of the apes, Chimps will never be able to talk, therefore they can not developpe more, this is because they lack the language gene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 I think that instead of trying to define their rights, we should define what is not to be done to them, for the simple reason that they do not have constructs in their environment and other than their environment, except for territorialism and such. Besides, they really have no place in our world - they belong in the wilderness with all other animals, unless you say we can/could/should "domesticate" them so that they become a part of our lives like dogs and cats and horses, the more traditional examples (guarding/security, pest control, burden transport, etc.). On a side note, even if they can play chess, can they play it at the level of a 5-year-old? If taught early on, not all five-year-olds will play "average" or even "basic," you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Domino this is by far wackiest thread.Your mind never rests.My vote is on the chimp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Since we are on the subject why not throw in the dogs, dolphins, cats, horses and exclude the turks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 My vote is no because my answer is neither "yes" nor "I don't know"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Stormy - good points.. And Domino - have you considered that within your lifetime we will be able to genetically modify that chimp for speech and perhaps for greater mental capacities as well. Its comming. And this whole area of genetic manipulation (and a parallel technical thrust of minaturized bio-mechanical implants) is ging to create some very interesting moral debates and such..in our very near future.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Stormy, I do think they have a place in our world, domesticate them was what I had in mind, of course the can't play chess like a genious kid, but they can play like an average kid, and you never know, we never really pied attention to them like we would to teach dogs tricks. They can serve to the blinds more intelligently than a dog, they can do a lot of things, and plus they do have a level of conscienceness. Armat, you have not seen the bests to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Ah, you Amerikanskis and your genetic modifications and playing gods. No GM stuff in the Old World! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 thoth, your argument gives one more reason to accept the chimps among us. Edward, my opinion does not stop with the chimps, I think any animals that recognise that the reflcetion on the mirror is his, should have special rights... this is the preservation of self-reflectiviness that I was thinking about the last night before sleeping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Thoth, why would you want to make a chimp talk by genetically modifying? Are you sure a chimp wants to talk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Ah, you Amerikanskis and your genetic modifications and playing gods. No GM stuff in the Old World! Yep! At least a god exist then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Fadichik, I really think animals should be left alone. Love my dog as I may (as I have my cats and my parakeet - at least they don't whine, unlike stinkpiles [reference to the other thread]), I really think it is very cruel that we wrench the young animals from their mothers at an early age and rely on their instinct to form bondage with an organism (anything) to be taken care of, for our own needs. Now I understand some breeds have "evolved" to the point where they can't survive in the wilderness (I can't think of wild poodles in the forests of wherever), but I don't think we should further this crime more than it has been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Oh Brave New World...what wonders etc... of course...many issues...a great many...oppurtunities for man to become gods, or devils, or both... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 (edited) Thoth, why would you want to make a chimp talk by genetically modifying? Are you sure a chimp wants to talk? A chimp that talks won't survive if they were to form a community. Because they will get evolved, and remember my theory about morality? They will become more evolved but morality will be limited, so while you provide them language you didn't permited natural selection to select moraly abled evloved among them. Edited December 18, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Stormy, a domesticated dog, is not and should not be considered like a wild dog... and I never said to separate them from their parents. Did I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Stormy I understand your feelings on this...however its the natural (or unatural as it were) progression. For better or ill...don't know...but I very much think that it is certainly going to happen. Any interested in this sort of thing might enjoy the "Uplift" novels of David Brin. Particualrly "Startide Rising" (winner of the Hugo and Nebula in 1984)...it concerns a Dolphin spaceship...with a mixed human, Dolphin and Chimp crew..some very interesting Aliens and many interesting points to consider. Great book BTW. The follow on volumes are also quite good - and the next one - "the uplift war" deals directly with some of these very moral dilemas of genetic maipulation (also dealt with in the first book...but more directly in the second)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 A chimp that talks won't survive if they were to form a community. Because they will get evolved, and remember my theory about morality? They will become more evolved but morality will be limited, so while you provide them language you didn't permited natural selection to select moraly abled evloved among them. LOL - what are the human's excuse then....lol - all this evolution - we should be better at getting along with one another - working to the common good etc...eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 They can survive if they live with us, and not with their communities, we shall select them like natural selection has done, and later from this slecetion we shall modify their genes, in a slow process to be able to replace natural selection. May work, don't know, never really medidate on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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