Sasun Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 I fail to see the logic. Lets for the sake of an argument, leave all the religious convictions, holly scriptures out of this, for the one who is suffering, why, why live like that. Maybe I’m not seeing what you see. My take on this is: if the person is suffering there is a reason for that. Nothing happens without a reason. We ordinary human beings do not see the reason, but that doesn't mean that there isn't one. Therefore, we can't decide to take a person's life because of our subjective reason. Do you think God cares less for the person than we do? If God wishes the person die and not suffer then he/she will die immediately. I wouldn't put away scriptures. I mean, if you are a believer then in such cases you should exactly follow what your particular faith dictates you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 My opinion.. Why does everyone on this site get so damn mad when an Individual mentions religious views and beliefs? Doesn't everyone have their right to their beliefs and opinions?!?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 My take on this is: if the person is suffering there is a reason for that. Nothing happens without a reason. We ordinary human beings do not see the reason, but that doesn't mean that there isn't one. Therefore, we can't decide to take a person's life because of our subjective reason. Do you think God cares less for the person than we do? If God wishes the person die and not suffer then he/she will die immediately. I wouldn't put away scriptures. I mean, if you are a believer then in such cases you should exactly follow what your particular faith dictates you. Sasun, I know it’s a very touchy subject to talk about; we all have our convictions and believes, what, reason? I don’t see it, maybe let’s say you are right about what you bring up, we are all suppose to let it happen on bases of fate? What about those who are artiest? Half of the European countries have adopted favorable stands on this issue of assisted suicide, are you telling me they have less fate then some others do? sorry buddy if it came down between me and my son, then I will pull the plug on him rather let him suffer without hope, what in the name of humanity any good can come out of letting someone suffer? Domino you didn’t bring up religion, I did. Armo, no one is getting mad, we are having a mature discussion here!!! <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Edward, so if that is the way then a lot of people suffer in life not necesarily health related. Do they have to die also? Why is there paing in general? Aren't we supposed to have any pain in life? So when there is pain we say, OK, time to die with honor. Well, that's not my belief. And I understand that there is pain and there is also unbearable pain but that's all relative (what is the amount of pain that it is not worth living anymore ?) I understand that people have different convictions: but, life and death are serious issues. Whoever gives life has the right to take life, nobody else. One can use their convictions in other cases but to take somebody's life because of a conviction I find wrong. As to reason - let's say that God doesn't make a mistake. I don't know what reason could there be but I am sure that God does have a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Edward, there is no European countries that had any favorable stands on this issue, if it is a question of killing someone. Again, I do think that people are not making the distinction between stopping a treatment that is maintaining one alive and injecting something to kill someone. Both are different. Someone in the comma that you are sure will never wake up, unpluging him is considered as stopping a treatment, on the other hand, a paralized person wanting to be killed is another issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Domino, pulling the plug is the same as a doctor not doing anything about a patient. So I think that pulling the plug off a person in comma is also wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Sasun, there is a problem with your logic... if we are a part of God like you affirm, and that everything happen for a reason like you affirm... then someone that want to die and ask for it to die, this would happen for a reason as well. Would it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Domino, pulling the plug is the same as a doctor not doing anything about a patient. So I think that pulling the plug off a person in comma is also wrong. No! It is not the same thing, if that person won't wake up, the doctor can't do anything about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Sasun, there is a problem with your logic... if we are a part of God like you affirm, and that everything happen for a reason like you affirm... then someone that want to die and ask for it to die, this would happen for a reason as well. Would it not? Domino, if someone did commit a suicide then the reason for his death would be that he killed himself. That would not break any of God's created laws. However, God also has created a better reason which is life and natural death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 No! It is not the same thing, if that person won't wake up, the doctor can't do anything about it. Yes, but the doctor can keep him alive, that's the point. Suppose a doctor can save someone from death but he is sure that person would be paralized in many ways. So is it OK for the doctor not to do anything? I don't think so - the duty of the doctor is to help as much as possible and not make judgements whether or not it is better for the patient to be in coma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 (edited) Sasun, why non-natural death is less valuable for god than an artificially maintained life? I mean, someone in a coma is maintained alive artificially, if left naturally he/she will die. Would that not be againsy god will to leave someone alive when god has chosen his death. Edited December 19, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Sasun, why non-natural death is less valuable for god than an artificially maintained life? I mean, someone in a coma is maintained alive artificially, if left naturally he/she will die. Would that not be againsy god will to live someone alive when god has chosen his death. With this logic any doctor treatment is also artificial, so doctors are acting against God's will? We are supposed to operate in the limits of our knowledge. The doctor doesn't know what God's will is about a sick patient. But he knows his duty - to save the life/health that God has already given, and that is an undeniable fact. If God's will is that the patient dies it will definitely happen no matter how skillful the doctor is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Sasun, it doesn't make sense at all. So if it would be god wills to maintain that person alive, unpluging that person won't change anything, because theoritically he should still be alive after it. If all this is predterminated, and that our life and death is predeterminated, so again, someone in a Coma, no matter letting him live or unpluging him, he will live if god has chosen that he should live. Is that not your logic? Do you know that in Islamic believe they think exactlly the same? Do you know what those kamikas think? They think that Allah has already decided that they will die at that instant, so they prefer to die to have those virgins... this is why in many Islamic countries in streets there was no red or green lights, people just say Ishalah and drive their cars, because in their opinions Allah has already chosen when they should die. How your opinion divert from that point of view, I don't see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Edward, there is no European countries that had any favorable stands on this issue, if it is a question of killing someone. Again, I do think that people are not making the distinction between stopping a treatment that is maintaining one alive and injecting something to kill someone. Both are different. Someone in the comma that you are sure will never wake up, unpluging him is considered as stopping a treatment, on the other hand, a paralized person wanting to be killed is another issue. Domino 6 Europian countries have similar laws. take a look http://www.nvve.nl/english/info/belgiumeuth_bbc16-05-02.htm http://www.nvve.nl/english/info/research_e...cet17-06-03.htm http://www.nvve.nl/english/info/euth.legal...ian01-04-02.htm http://www.nvve.nl/english/info/missb_mirror07-03-02.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Sasun, it doesn't make sense at all. So if it would be god wills to maintain that person alive, unpluging that person won't change anything, because theoritically he should still be alive after it. If all this is predterminated, and that our life and death is predeterminated, so again, someone in a Coma, no matter letting him live or unpluging him, he will live if god has chosen that he should live. Is that not your logic? Do you know that in Islamic believe they think exactlly the same? Do you know what those kamikas think? They think that Allah has already decided that they will die at that instant, so they prefer to die to have those virgins... this is why in many Islamic countries in streets there was no red or green lights, people just say Ishalah and drive their cars, because in their opinions Allah has already chosen when they should die. How your opinion divert from that point of view, I don't see. Domino, why doesn't it make sense? This is not what I am saying. I am saying, if there is a life then you should try to maintain it and not take life. In other words, I am for traffic lights. I am saying if there is life then it is by God's will that there is life, you cannot take somebody's life. If somebody is in a critical situation and could die, it may or may not be God's will that he/she dies. So instead of making a guess what God's will is we should save the life, because we know already that it was God's will that this life existed. Now, if God's will is that this person should die we don't know that in advance. After you have done all that could be done then the person will die according to God's will. Let's not forget that we are also part of God's will and God acts through us also. But this doesn't mean that we can do anything we want and say God acts through us as an excuse. When you kill someone you have made your own judgement and will to kill the person, definitely. If a person is sick there is a chance that it is God's will that the person dies and also a chance that God wants the patient to survive. Therefore we should play safe and try to save this life. Let me reformulate: we don't know what God's will is, therefore we should act in the safest possible way in order not to contradict God. God's will is the best choice of all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 (edited) Edward, there is gaps in those laws, what is psychological pain? I mean, is that not considered as an illness itself? What I mean is that those laws claim that when the person take this decision he/she must take it when having his mind, the decision should be clear. When someone take such decision when he/she is not on a physical pain, but rather a psychological, is he/she taking the decision in a depressive state? If that is the cases, would it be not right to affirm that the person didn't had all his/her mind when taking the decision? Do you see what I mean? They could very well be diagnosed as Circonstantial Depression and be on medication, would they then still decide they want to die even if on pain killers and anti-depressif medications? Those laws don't address the real problematic questions, they are either pro or against(religious groups), but what I bring here are in no way addressed. One ironic think is that it is said in those laws that the physician must not commit killing. What the hell does that mean? Sasun, without introducing the god thing, I already devlopped this "safest" decision argument in the past, if I didn't knew you I would claim you are copying my own arguments to use them against me. But in cases of Coma and such cases, the "safest" in no way apply, the person is dead, maintaining it artificially alive does not change this fact. Edited December 20, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 Domino, I don't know when you have developed the safest decision argument. Is it something I was involved in the debate? At any rate, if you don't accept God then any theories concerning life and death are going to have a serious flaw And how is coma the same as dead? On what are you basing this claim? People do come back from coma you know, but nobody has come back from death, that is a major difference. I don't think we can consider a person in coma dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 Domino, Sasun Physiological pain can lead to physical pain, and vs.-versa, the pain is pain no matter how you interpret it or misinterpret, what I'm saying is, what’s humane and logical in this case, yes Sasun, there was maybe a 1% or 2% that came out of comma, well I don’t know about that, no law nor religion can be a judge to that, when I mentioned the case in particular in Florida, it was debated and argued in both sides, meanwhile she was living like a vegetable, Sasun, God, fate, maybe you have an argument, I’m not a priest nor a physician, what appears to me is, the only way when there is no hope, none! The only thing remains is the mercy or assisted death Should we just reject modern science and leave all to fate? Domino the laws are writhen by the people and not by gods, and even gods are imperfect, what does make most séance to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 Edward, I am not against assisted suicide in itself, I think you misunderstood me. What I meant was that it is very difficult issue, because you can't never know by being sure 100% that the individual had all his/her head when he/she took the decision and that he was not in a depression because of what happened. This is the main problem, all those laws claim that one must not have an alterate mind when taking the decision. Some like Thoth will just shut yes! Anyone should have the right, it isen't a simple issue, and it isen't as well as simple as Sasun claim when he categorically say no. If there was a simple answer, there would be no such debate. I am against those laws BTW, didn't knew such clear ones existed. It is a one by one cases, there isen't any clear answer here, each cases should be studied and only a Jurisprudence of those cases should be used without creating laws that could be misused or laws that are open to interpretation like those ones. Sasun, I already talked about this in the past, and the Safest decision theory was proposed, this theory which I proposed was for me an universal human law, writen nowhere but instinctif, it is one of the arguments I have used to be against death penality as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 Domino, I am categorically against suicide and against killing that's not for self-defence. Therefore, I am categorically against assisted suicide which is either plain killing with the false name of "assistance" (this can be consciously or subconsciously) or stupidly assisting someone doing something very-very bad. If anyone is going to tell me he cares more about suffering people than me - I say that's total b.s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 I don't believe that someone in vegetal life should be assisted in dying, because then it is not sui-cide - killing of oneself. It is just murder. And, sometimes, or maybe often, they do wake up. I'm talking about those that go on sleeping for years. I don't know much about such - whether they receive intrvenular nutrition and whether they just drifted off into death in the past. However, I believe that someone in physical pain should be able to make the decision to die if they wish. Nobody else's business. I'm not too sure about the psychological/depressive part. OK, this is the theology thread, but I have to ask everyone to knock it off with "God's will" already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 I have to ask everyone to knock it off with "God's will" already. agreed. Same logic could be used for the Armenian Genocide - it was Gods will...if so then why even complain, why grieve etc...(do yeah -- I don't buy this at all,,,not one bit..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 On second thought, "suicide" really does sound like killing of pigs... Sus scrofa... Swine... Suine meat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 but I have to ask everyone to knock it off with "God's will" already. May I ask you why is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 agreed. Same logic could be used for the Armenian Genocide - it was Gods will...if so then why even complain, why grieve etc...(do yeah -- I don't buy this at all,,,not one bit..) If you are referring to my logic you got it wrong. It is not God's will to murder innocent people yet people do murder and God tolerates. That's my point. I am not saying that everything we do is God's will. I said above Let's not forget that we are also part of God's will and God acts through us also. But this doesn't mean that we can do anything we want and say God acts through us as an excuse. When you kill someone you have made your own judgement and will to kill the person, definitely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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