TashnagZinvor Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 I would imagine Armenians are too stupid to overlook there 2 dialects and re-introduce Krapar(Church/Latin Armenian), which would dismiss the problem of misuses of foreign words and accents. I myself have learned it and find it to be closer to western-armenian. Language = Unity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 I would imagine Armenians are too stupid to overlook there 2 dialects and re-introduce Krapar ...You call it stupid, I call it practical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TashnagZinvor Posted December 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 How is it practical when the basis of the dialects are impurities and foreign influence? Without a common language, there will never be unity of a sence of brotherhood amongst the so diverse Armenian community. If ones wish is to unite them, there is no other better way to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 I agree with the common language ... I just don't agree that Grapar is the right choice. I think the official Armenian spoken in Armenia should be the main language adopted, learned, thaught, and used by all Armenians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TashnagZinvor Posted December 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Not all Armenians are Eastern Armenians, Krapar is also used in Armenian Churches, taught by Armenian linguistic preservationists in Armenia itself. The language of Armenia would translate to, The Russian influenced Eastern Armenian dialect. There is no doubt in my mind your from Armenia, your choice is purely biast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 There is no doubt in my mind your from Armenia, your choice is purely biast. It is always amazing to see how "no doubt" can exist behind such completely incorrect conclusions! Either way, I have no personal interest (nor a strong stance) on this but I was curious to know your position ... So let me see if I understand this: You are advocating the use of the Church/Latin influenced Grapar over the use of the "russian" influenced Eastern Armenian which is already widely in use and works quite well from what I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TashnagZinvor Posted December 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Latin in a sence, that it's a Latin form to the Armenians, as the real LATIN is to the Italians or Romans. My concern is to spread a more accurate pure Armenian language, instead of one that has so many grammatical and influencial impurities. Yes, I would much rather see the Armenians using an Armenian language instead of Russian Lingo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TashnagZinvor Posted December 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Krapar was not "influenced", it was enstated by the Armenian Apostolic Church during Byzantinian times to preserve the Armenian language. Many Armenian linguists (most of whome were liturgical figures) at the time tried to enforce the Armenian communities of Byzantine, and eastern Armenia (what was persia and russia then) to speak it. Several of the linguistics also researched ancient Armenian dialects. Im assuming Arxangelos was one of those linguists. What I find ironic is that this same church preserved Kragapasht (pagan Armenian religion) sites, by builed the churches over existing Kragapasht sites, as well as the religion itself. Perhaps Kragapasht and Krapar have similar origins in meaning... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Based on the written heritage of the Armenian language, it would be reasonably accurate to claim that Armenian language, starting from Grabar, has sustained a couple of evolutions - from Grabar to Western Armenia to Eastern Armenian. It is absolutely obvious that Western Armenian, while having beautiful musical qualities is an underdeveloped media of communication. First of all, its structure is blurry. Secondly, compared to the written heritage left behind by the Eastern Armenian writers, Western Armenian written heritage is miniscule. Furthermore, practically no serious linguists have worked on Western Armenian language with the purpose f its crystallization and purification. Western Armenian language is as contaminated with foreign influences and vocabulary as the contemporary Eastern Armenian is (I would in fact claim more contaminated.) It is obvious that there is no serious [at least written] heritage to be passed to the future generations through Western Armenian. Obviously, all textbooks - be them of educational or scientific character - would be written in Armenian - perhaps with rare exceptions of some isolated books written in Western Armenian for the sake of making a statement. Furthermore, outside the Istanbul [dialect if you wish] Western Armenian is a total disaster. Furthermore, it has never happened in the history of communication of human kind, as much as I can think of it, that the history has been moved back. Therefore, the insinuations that Western Armenian language might have a claim on becoming the universal media of communication for Armenians are not only dubious and ill-researched but lack basic seriousness. As far as the "Armenian Unity" is concerned, common language (or if you wish dialect) does not lead to a unified nation. Millions of people around the world share common language but not a common identity. The unity starts and the doors of a common homeland. This is what prevents Armenian Unity to a degree that it is meaningful - majority of the people of Armenian ethnicity have neither homeland nor a desire to have one. They just find it convenient to hide their lack of feeling of homeland through the hypothesization (forgive my French) of the concept of homeland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TashnagZinvor Posted December 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 MJ your statements are flawed on so many levels. Western Armenian literary works were destroyed by the millions in Turkey, had you not known it most Armenian schools, in fact all, are Western Armenian institutions, in America, Lebanon, and many in Armenia. Just because you havnt been exposed to the western Armenian literary culture doesnt mean it doesnt exist, far more vast than that of the eastern armenian (whome did not go through the treachory which the western armenians did at the extent they did) whome still have there land, and who are far more populour, and probably more than tripple the western armenians. What i meant by krapars GRAMMATICAL similarites was just that, i never said that western armenian didnt have foreign influence, however its still closer to krapar grammatically. I dont know what your trying to prove but from your statements ive gathered absolutely nothing. If your trying to make it look like Eastern Armenian would be a better choice over krapar? why dont you state why, instead of attempting to bash western armenians. Id like you to give me one concrete fact at which you base your statements on. Did you not know the largest schools, and the first armenian university was situated in wester armenia? appareantly your vision only extends over your knowledge of eastern armenian culture... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 MJ your statements are flawed on so many levels. If we were to compete on the grounds of the knowledge of Western Armenian Language or Literature, I can assure that you would not be the one to shine under a better light. Furthermore, the very fact of the evolution of Grabar to Early Medieval, and then to late Medieval Western Armenian, was due to the fact that outside churches no one could speak Grabar. The rest of your posting is of no interest to me and I will save my time for better endeavors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 A few quick thoughts: As painful as it is to "western armenian" speakers, it is time to face the reality that "western armenian" has no future. It has no future for the obvious practical reason of being cut off from its land. And it would have no future in its current form even if the lands where it was once spoken were miraculously populated by western armenian speakers because it would create a counterproductive linguistic friction between them and the "eastern" armenians. In that highly hypothetical situation, the belated effort to take the best of the two versions (and why not, some features of Grabar/Krapar) and slowly guide the evolution of the language towards a "reconciled" form would seem more obvious. All well and good, but that's fantasy. "Western armenian" has only one function today: it allows the speakers of that dialect to teach their children a version of Armenian. Hopefully, when Armenia becomes the economic, artistic, and technological powerhouse of her region (I wish this didn't sound like a cruel joke), those children will be able to find a place there owing to their exposure to a version of Armenian, as opposed to none. I love my "western armenian" for the simple reason that it is the language I heard in my household as I grew up. However, it would be foolish of me to ignore the reality on the ground. And, I do have at least one gripe about it: it lacks a "present continuous tense", not counting the colloquial -gor suffix. But that's another topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TashnagZinvor Posted December 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 MJ your point still hasn't been made. Twilight Bark I agree, there is no future for Western Armenians as a nation or a language, not with the 3-1 ratio. However theres no way I will partake in teaching my children Eastern Armenian, or taking part in anything Eastern Armenian or categorizing myself as such. I would rather we die out with honour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 THe only point that I would want to make at this time would be addressed to the moderators and it would be something that I would not put in writing in here. But I am sure they would get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 How can dashnak speak about unity?That's hilarious.Dashnaks are the ones strengthening separation to no limit. The Armenian spoken in Armenia has no foreign influences, not one.God bless Abovyan, no Armenian has done so much for the future of Armenia as Abovyan.The slang in the streets might have a few Russian words, at least Russian is an IE language not some guttural arabic or turkish that dashnaks people speak.So called "Western Armenian" has a few words from armenia is a mongrelized perverted language based on semitic arabic and asiatic turkish, add a bunch new words that came out from who knows where and you go that kak. Grapar is a great langauge, although it still has a lot of Iranian words it is much more pure than any Armenian spoken today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Teutonic Knight, don't you know that Dashnaks are the only 'patriotic', the only 'armenian', the only 'pure', the only ....Armenians on Earth. The rest are just unfortunate creatures. When you go to their parties, all you can hear is arabic music, turkish slang and mongrel faces. Their first love is Lebanon, their second one...no it is not Armenia. Syria and shishkebab. That is what Dashnaks are!On the other hand they are so 'patriotic' that they left their beloved Lebanon, not for Armenia, but for Canada and US. This is what I call real patriotism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 ... there is no future for Western Armenians as a nation ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Twilight Bark I agree, there is no future for Western Armenians as a nation or a language, not with the 3-1 ratio. However theres no way I will partake in teaching my children Eastern Armenian, or taking part in anything Eastern Armenian or categorizing myself as such. I would rather we die out with honour. Thanks for your agreement, but the lack of viability has nothing to do with any ratios. It is as simple as a tree cut off from its soil and roots. As for your hostility towards "eastern" Armenian(s), I cannot relate to it all, and find it both repugnant and dishonorable. Cultural suicide is your personal choice. However, calling it an "honorable death" is delusional. You should be aware of that and make your choices accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 (edited) And one rather dies with honor then have a unity. I have the all the valiums of Hagop Paronian, and I must admit, as much as I can appreciate Eastern Armenian, one can not make an argument against how wonderful Paronian sounds in Western Armenian, both are unique and beautiful when spoken correctly, I don’t see how one common language can unite a Nation. Edited December 11, 2003 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 I would imagine Armenians are too stupid to overlook there 2 dialects and re-introduce Krapar(Church/Latin Armenian), which would dismiss the problem of misuses of foreign words and accents. I myself have learned it and find it to be closer to western-armenian. Language = Unity(Note; Does not this thread need to be moved to another subject topic as it has turned into a linguistic war?) Dear Tashnag,I feel bad that everybody has ganged up on you, but perhaps you should have stuck yo your station and not dabble in linguistic as it is evident that you know very little about the subject. The mere fact that you transliterate (taradartsum) your nickname the way you do automatically disqualifies you. You seem to know very little about the basics of abc an D/aybbengim yev DA. Juxtapose the Latin/Greek alphabet with that created by Mashtots and tell us how how you come up with spelling "tashnag" when in the Armenian it is spelled beginning with the 4th letter, DA as in D, as in Delta. And, you pretend to be an expert of Grabar when you cannot even properly transliterate it. Krapar??? If you can read Armenian go back and see how it is properly spelled. Never mind that turkified and bastardized format.FYI, I was not born in Yerevan nor any place close to it but I have come to realize that, with all their sins against the Armenian language they still mainatin the closest form of pure Armenian as it was intended to be.I will go no further. If you want to discuss linguistics start a new thread in the Language section. This is a long subject but as stated, above this is not the proper subject topic to discuss linguistics.It is ironic, if tragic that this subject is being debated under the subject topic of "unity", yet the only unifying trait that we may have, language is being used to divide us, mostly due to ignorance. PS. Please tell us what "dialect" the founders of Dashnaktsutyun sopke!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 I have done some clean up and split from the original thread. Please stay on topic and refrain from personal remarks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Dear TashnagZinvor, first of all welcome to our forum. Stay with us for some time and you will notice that this is a friendly environment where we like to tread all members with respect. The question you are raising could be very controversial and emotional at times. I must say that I disagree with you. I love Western Armenian although can hardly speak it. My stance is that, first of all, language is more of a means and less of a goal. Therefore, we Armenians - Eastern or Western - shouldn't think about artificially creating a common standard in language. We should instead focus on more real aspects of unity. There really isn't much communication going on between Diaspora Armenians who speak the Western dialect and the rest of Armenians (mostly from Armenia and Iran) who speak the Eastern dialect. So what is the point of having a unified language? Once there is a significant degree of interactions where language difference is causing communication problems the matter will settle on its own - we will find a common language whatever that be So, I wouldn't worry about it a bit. (not to say that the maintenance and purification of both dialects is not necessary, but that's another question and I am not an expert on that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.