Why Is It

[AnoushBabyGirl1]

that Turks go on and on about their great achievements and culture when the only thing they have ever done is conquer people? What else exactly ahve they contributed to modern society? And why are there no famous people in America of Turkish descent, there are a lot of famous Armenians, even with being massacred and having our land and property stolen from us. The Turkish have a long (well long for them) history of profiting off of things that do not belong to them, why haven't they progressed as a people? Why does Turkey still have a large illiteracy rate and why are there practically no important Turkish artists/musicians/scientests/actors in history to speak of?

[Nakharar]

Compared to other ethnic groups we are also at a very dismal situation. Especially when you compare us to the Italians, Jews and Greeks. Unfortunately those famous "Armenians" that are known in the United States have no real attachment to being Armenian, eg. Cher and Andre Agassi. Sure they are known all over the world, but what is their contribution to Armenians and Armenian culture? To be successful in the United States you have to be an assimilated Armenian. Well there are no famous Turks because they have missed out on all the important stages of history such as the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution. We also missed out on these but we had the advantage of being a Christian minority without the shackles of religious dogma that restrained us and prevented progressive change. On the question of why the Turks didn't advance despite all the profit they gained out of looting and "taxation" is that you can't build a solid foundation from such activities that isn't based on your own toil and incentive. That is why all these nomad empires in Central Asia starting from the Mongols and the Golden Horde failed as empires after only a generation. Another reason, which you have pointed out correctly, why the Turks are still lagging behind and procrastinate is that they don't invest in human capital, that is their own people.

[AnoushBabyGirl1]

You are right about all of that except when you say that Armenians are not doing well in that respect compared to Italians, Jews, and Greeks. I agree that we are underrepresented but I think that we are just as well represented in the media for example as Greeks, maybe even better, especially if you consider that there are less Armenians in America than Greeks. And it's true that Cher and Andre Agassi identify as American (and Iranian in Agassi's case) than Armenian, but I think that's the same case for most Jewish and Italian famous people in America. At least everyone knows they're Armenian, and they talk about it. Turks on the other hand, how come you never hear about a celbrity or famous artist or politician in America that is part Turk? I'm just saying, you think there would be one, for example Shannon Elizabeth (the girl from American Pie) is part Syrian, Ralph Nader is Lebanese, but where are all of the well-known people of Turkish descent? I can't think of any, can you .

[Anoushik]

What are you talking about Nakharar?

 

What... Aram Khachaturian is not enough for you? How about Gohar Gasparian, the great opera singer of international fame? Or how about Arshille Gorky?

What about Komitas?

 

I could just go on and on...

How about the major contributions the Armenians have given to the scientific world?

Just two days ago I heard on the news that the most technologically and intellectually advanced countries to contribute to the study of astronomy and astrophysics include United States, India, and of course, Armenia.

 

I love Andre Agassi - he is my most favorite athlete. And while I am not a fan of Cher's music I respect her very much. But neither Cher nor Agassi represent Armenians. They are Americans with Armenian roots.

 

Armenians from Armenia and the Armenian diaspora have always contributed to the world, be it through music, literature, art, or simply through our unique, Armenian existence.

Edited November 26, 2003 by anoushik

[Anoushik]

Oh, I forgot to add. If you want a famous Armenian making news very recently here in America just check out Mark Geragos.

[PiggyWiggy]

Geragos doesnt say, " I am Armenian"

 

Which is what you have to do to make it in the States.

 

And like Karl Marx once said, "Every people have given to modern science, besides the Turks"

 

However...they do have a great cuisine, and a beautiful geographic position, which is undeniable.

[Sip]

Geragos doesnt say, " I am Armenian"

 

Which is what you have to do to make it in the States.

That's not true. People give a lot less damn about "what you are" here than anywhere else in the world. That's not to say it is always a non issue .. actually far from it. But saying or not saying "I am Armenian" would typically not have much impact in one's career ... except maybe in politics.

 

The key here in the US is the "don't ask don't tell" policy which I love! Who cares what you are!!!! Just show what you can do and let your actions speak louder than your "race".

[PiggyWiggy]

Yes.

 

But, it is bad for an American athlete, like Agassi, to say he is Armenian.

 

It may not seem like it can do a lot of damage, but it does.

 

It is better for us to support him in his carreer, and know that he is Armenian, rather than have him say it.

 

Believe me...it is bad for business.

[Sip]

Believe me...it is bad for business.

Why should I believe you? ... no YOU believe ME. It's irrelevant in most cases.

[PiggyWiggy]

of course...

 

but...

 

You have to say, I AM AMERICAN.

 

Saying I AM ARMENIAN, really is bad for reputation, especially when some act like "Gangsters".

 

It is really horrible, how some Mexicans make fun of me because of how I am Armenian, I say I am different from the ones they know, but still, I get picked on.

 

Believe me, people say I am funny, and they say I am cool, but, since other Armenians act up, I get made fun of.

[Anoushik]

You have to say, I AM AMERICAN.

 

Saying I AM ARMENIAN, really is bad for reputation, especially when some act like "Gangsters".

PiggyWiggy, you're in high school. It's just a small four years of your entire life. While it may seem that it's the real world, it's not. Trust me. That's how I used to think too, but there is a whole different world beyond high school, (and even beyond college, I'm sure, since I'm in college now)... An entirely different world where you can say "I am Armenian" and it's not going to hurt your reputation.

Edited December 4, 2003 by anoushik

[PiggyWiggy]

Well maybe you are right...

 

But still...you can not become sponsored, if you keep on saying, I AM ARMENIAN! I AM PROUD!

 

The sponsors want to sell products to Americans, not Armenians.

 

I hope I am making some sense.

[Harut]

Well maybe you are right...

 

But still...you can not become sponsored, if you keep on saying, I AM ARMENIAN! I AM PROUD!

 

The sponsors want to sell products to Americans, not Armenians.

 

I hope I am making some sense.

no, you're not making sense. neither would anyone who would saying I AM ARMENIAN AND I AM PROUD when in front of a sponser the first time.

one who would do that would be very ethnocentric (if not prejudice). so, why would that one except equal treatment by representatives of other ethnicities?

[Nakharar]

I want to rephrase what I have said before. All the Armenians who have accomplished something in the U.S. made it as Americans not as Armenians. They have chosen to adapt to the American mentality and discard all the habits that are impervious to progress and personal fulfillment. We are all shaped by the environment we live in. This isn't bad in itself and applies to all the other ethnic groups equally. Especially in the U.S. the force that pulls us towards this current is very strong. We are all aware of this process and because of this we become more defensive and take affront to every criticism made. As a result we have become more hostile towards others, mostly our fellow Armenians. Though we cannot stop this assimilationist trend we can try to stem it. We can choose to live in an ethnic ghetto instead where we can congregate only with our kin. It may be good for self-preservation but what a miserable existence that would be. Our choices in life would be severely limited by our parochial outlook and lack of real-life experience. We might as well live in a zoo with an endangered species program. We have the advantage of living in multicultural society where there are less obstacles to social mobility and less entrenched prejudices. This is mainly due to ignorance and because there is no single ethnic group that dominates over the others. But I'm not disregarding the imprint of the main dominating culture. We should take advantage of all the things this country offers us and take the best of both worlds without sacrificing too much of our (Armenian) identities.

[phantom]

You have to say, I AM AMERICAN.

 

Saying I AM ARMENIAN, really is bad for reputation, especially when some act like "Gangsters".

PiggyWiggy, you're in high school. It's just a small four years of your entire life. While it may seem that it's the real world, it's not. Trust me. That's how I used to think too, but there is a whole different world beyond high school, (and even beyond college, I'm sure, since I'm in college now)... An entirely different world where you can say "I am Armenian" and it's not going to hurt your reputation.

Good point Anoushik. I have a Persian friend with an "ian" last name who is now a surgical resident. All through medical school he would tell people that he was Armenian rather than Persian, because he said that people generally have the perception that Armenians are hard workers and intelligent. Obviously the perception doesn't correspond with reality given that Persians are no less hard working or intelligent, but it just shows that Piggy's negative perception of Armenians probably isn't the prevalent perception, at least not in America.

[phantom]

I want to rephrase what I have said before. All the Armenians who have accomplished something in the U.S. made it as Americans not as Armenians. They have chosen to adapt to the American mentality and discard all the habits that are impervious to progress and personal fulfillment. We are all shaped by the environment we live in. This isn't bad in itself and applies to all the other ethnic groups equally. Especially in the U.S. the force that pulls us towards this current is very strong. We are all aware of this process and because of this we become more defensive and take affront to every criticism made. As a result we have become more hostile towards others, mostly our fellow Armenians. Though we cannot stop this assimilationist trend we can try to stem it. We can choose to live in an ethnic ghetto instead where we can congregate only with our kin. It may be good for self-preservation but what a miserable existence that would be. Our choices in life would be severely limited by our parochial outlook and lack of real-life experience. We might as well live in a zoo with an endangered species program. We have the advantage of living in multicultural society where there are less obstacles to social mobility and less entrenched prejudices. This is mainly due to ignorance and because there is no single ethnic group that dominates over the others. But I'm not disregarding the imprint of the main dominating culture. We should take advantage of all the things this country offers us and take the best of both worlds without sacrificing too much of our (Armenian) identities.

I'm not so sure that I agree with all that you have said, although some of it seems plausible. Most of what I am going to say here is merely my personal experience and anecdotal, but it provides at least some evidence that Armenians in America aren't just succeeding because they adopt American values. Almost every Armenian that I know has become successful in this country within one generation. The family comes here and struggles to achieve and maintain at least a middle class existence so that their children have at least the same opportunities as the rest of the majority of the country. The children go on to become valuable members of society, contributing in many different fields ranging from law, medicine, government, small and big business, science, etc. I don't think I know any 30 year old Armenian (even the ones who weren't born here) who isn't either an engineer, a doctor, a lawyer, an accountant, a financial advisor, a scientist, a successful small business owner, or at least in mid management in a large company and upwardly mobile. It is my belief that Armenians in America are attending universities in numbers disproportionate to the rest of Caucasian Americans, and obtaining post-graduate degrees in numbers disproportionate to the rest of Caucasian Americans. It is my belief that Armenians are prospering in their careers and financial situations in disproportionate numbers. While many minorities (and the majority of white Americans also) continue to struggle generation after generation to achieve the American dream, I think Armenians have demonstrated that they are able to achieve it quickly and in disproportionate numbers. This must mean that they are not just adopting American values. Yes, they have shown that they can easily adjust to the American work ethic, but they must be doing something else, something that perhaps adds additional value to the benefits gained from adopting American values and the American work ethic. I'm not sure what that is, but whatever it is, it must be something that we imported with us when we came here, and not something that we learned here.

[Nakharar]

That was an excellent post. I was mainly referring to Armenians who have become famous in the U.S. It's more than obvious that we as Armenians have achieved enormous success especially in comparison to Caucasian Americans. Almost all of the Armenian Americans in my surroundings fit the situation you described. There are some exceptions of course such as the recent immigrant arrivals from Armenia and Lebanon, but they will catch up within a generation. We were all in the same situation one time. In my case my parents were. The opportunities presented to us in this country have enabled us to prosper and excel. The positive inducements for this can be found in the favorable political and social conditions. The importance we attach to education is another reason. Many Armenians aim for postgraduate degrees and want to prove themselves in all endeavors. I agree that by adopting American values and the American work-ethic has greatly benefitted Armenians. But this wouldn't be complete without an additional impetus. I can't point it out either but we are somehow more driven than other ethnic groups. Maybe it has to do with being a minority. The bad experiences of Armenians in the past could be another factor. Even the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire were successful and productive members of their society despite the hardships they faced. The discrimination and obstacles they faced made them more resolute in overcoming these. We are more conscious of our surroundings than the average American since we come from a different culture. While the mainstream American is perfectly content to spend his life in stupefying procrastination we are in constant need to prove ourselves not only to others but to ourselves. Being a minority we are not only invisible to most Americans but also indifferent to them. We are all a product (directly or indirectly) of the Genocide and most of us wouldn't be here if it weren't for it. We want to make up for all the losses that our ancestors faced and all that that has been denied to us by transcending these.

[Anoushik]

Great posts, nakharar and phantom!

 

Only another point I'd like to add has to do with what you said at the end about the Genocide and Armenians wanting to make up for their losses. While I agree with you partly, nakharar, I also think that the Genocide isn't such a big factor for us wanting to succeed. I think it's in our blood in general, the drive to succeed has always been there from generations long before the Genocide. Because of our very tragic history, having always been under foreign rule, Armenians learned to be hardworking and try their best in order to keep their existance and survival - which today translates into our existance and survival.

[shiner]

I always wander what makes one group more "successful" than the other, or more "talented" than the other in one area. Is it only genetic, or only the environment, or both?

 

I sometimes wander if Armenians (and other close knit ethnicities) are more successful because of their "closeknit-ness". The very same closeknitness that I dislike might be a reason for success. Everybody constantly sticking his nose in your business, talking behind your back and looking down on you if you fail, being used as a "display" by your parents, and being compared to other "displays" of your parents friends, etc., might put pressure on you. Also the unconditional love from family might be a factor in not having to struggle with family problems as much and instead channeling that energy towards your career. What do ya'll think?

[phantom]

I always wander what makes one group more "successful" than the other, or more "talented" than the other in one area. Is it only genetic, or only the environment, or both?

 

I sometimes wander if Armenians (and other close knit ethnicities) are more successful because of their "closeknit-ness". The very same closeknitness that I dislike might be a reason for success. Everybody constantly sticking his nose in your business, talking behind your back and looking down on you if you fail, being used as a "display" by your parents, and being compared to other "displays" of your parents friends, etc., might put pressure on you. Also the unconditional love from family might be a factor in not having to struggle with family problems as much and instead channeling that energy towards your career. What do ya'll think?

Well, it certainly is true that everybody is always sticking their nose in your business, that's for sure.

 

I don't know, personally I attribute whatever success I've achieved in America to my parents' constant encouragement to continue with my education and strive for excellence. I remember my dad giving me a choice when I was just a sophomore in high school. I would work every summer at his small clothing factory in a dingy building in downtown L.A. with grafitti-filled bathrooms, and one day he asked me if I wanted to go to college. I said yes, and he said, good, because if you don't go to college, your only other option is to come here and work with me every day. I couldn't run to college fast enough after he said that .

[Nakharar]

I always wander what makes one group more "successful" than the other, or more "talented" than the other in one area. Is it only genetic, or only the environment, or both?

 

I sometimes wander if Armenians (and other close knit ethnicities) are more successful because of their "closeknit-ness". The very same closeknitness that I dislike might be a reason for success. Everybody constantly sticking his nose in your business, talking behind your back and looking down on you if you fail, being used as a "display" by your parents, and being compared to other "displays" of your parents friends, etc., might put pressure on you. Also the unconditional love from family might be a factor in not having to struggle with family problems as much and instead channeling that energy towards your career. What do ya'll think?

 

 

We sometimes act as if each Armenian is part of an extended family and therefore people find the right to stick their nose in all matters that do not concern them at all. One of the downsides of this closeknit community life are the constant jealousies and the petty quarrels usually over trivial matters. True some people use their wealth (fancy cars and hanging the diplomas of their children on walls, etc. ) to showcase them to neighbors and friends. It's better to ignore these people alltogether. They are a sad bunch who are not worth paying attention.

We know that we can fall back on the support of our families (I don't mean material support) in case when things go wrong. In Europe where I can currently live the opposite is the case, where once you reach the age of 18 you are booted out of your parents house. My parents never "pushed" me in that sense, but like Phantom my alternatives were also pretty clear.

[Guest fackit]

that Turks go on and on about their great achievements and culture when the only thing they have ever done is conquer people? What else exactly ahve they contributed to modern society? And why are there no famous people in America of Turkish descent, there are a lot of famous Armenians, even with being massacred and having our land and property stolen from us. The Turkish have a long (well long for them) history of profiting off of things that do not belong to them, why haven't they progressed as a people? Why does Turkey still have a large illiteracy rate and why are there practically no important Turkish artists/musicians/scientests/actors in history to speak of?

Turks were and will always be barbarians in most cases. But as far as contributions, mongloid tribes have a few, turks in general the only things I can think of are Yogurt and shish kebab, as far as mongloids, they did bring a few instruments into the western world, although Im sure they took the idea of the instruments from the Chinese. Alot of wind instruments came from the mongol world, later picked up by the arabs and then the crusaders and taken into Europe.

 

Like alot of people said, Armenia was closer to the western world. Yes even when turks did come into the western world they didnt do shit, because they were lazy sitting around smoking the hooka while other people worked.

 

Lets just say that They like to brag alot about what they conquered and own now.

kinda off topic but I saw a post on some forum by this one guy claiming Turks are the last true helen people. Hummm I dont know about that one.

[AnoushBabyGirl1]

^^^^yeah they always say that, but everyone knows it's not true. why doesn't anyone except the armenians ever call them on this, shouldn't the arabs hate them too? they never say anything about them, but turkey controlled their countries for hundreds of years too.