DominO123 Posted November 9, 2003 Report Share Posted November 9, 2003 (edited) Oh please Domino... There is only one entity that has the right to talk to the country of Turkey and that is the Country of Armenia. It is her children that got slaughtered in Turkey. How can anyone else but ROA have a say in this? You as an individual or we as a group may stand up there and do all that is needed to be done, but Turkey does not give a rats ass about you and I the only "power" that they care about in terms of the Genocide is Armenia. And even if/when they recognize the genocide it is still the Republic that has a say in that matter of lands and such. Plus what organization in the Diaspora has the ability to conduct serious discussions with Turkey?Recognition of the genocide is independent of the republic of Armenia, individual reparation is independent of the republic of Armenia, all the juridic stuff, beside Kars etc... has nothing to do with Armenia... Armenia has no legitimity to talk in the name of the hole Armenian people, when there is more Armenians living abroud than there is in Armenia. I fail to see on what front will Armenia have any discussion concerning the genocide with Turkey... can you unlighten me about that? Edited November 9, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 So am I to understand that Armenian is just another country., and it has not suffered from Genocide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 Recognition of the genocide is independent of the republic of Armenia, individual reparation is independent of the republic of Armenia, all the juridic stuff, beside Kars etc... has nothing to do with Armenia... Armenia has no legitimity to talk in the name of the hole Armenian people, when there is more Armenians living abroud than there is in Armenia. I fail to see on what front will Armenia have any discussion concerning the genocide with Turkey... can you unlighten me about that? Domino, that is not correct. I will give you two reasons.1) Armenia is not a new country per se, it existed for a long time in the history where Western Armenia from which Diasporans have originated was an integral part of it. The only inheritor of both troubles and benefits of this old country is the present day Republic of Armenia. If you look that way, Armenia is exactly the country to be on the steering wheel of genocide recognition and all the policies that have to do with it.2) Diasporans can delegate all their moral, legal, political, land claims' representation to the Republic of Armenia. At present this is partially the case (e.g. one of the foreign policy priorities of Armenia is the recognition of the genocide). If the need arises, it can be done on paper legally according to international norms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 Thoth, I have been watching quite some time, looks like no luck breaking that wall... LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 Plus what organization in the Diaspora has the ability to conduct serious discussions with Turkey? This is an interesting question Azat - and I'm waiting impatiently for Domino's reponse!! And I'm in agreement with the rest of your post BTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 (edited) It has been the stand of a current (and previous) government of ROA, in which in many occasions the president stated, we as a country, Armenia has no territorial clams from Turkey, however it is also and mentioned by the president, Armenia can not represent the Diaspora (all Armenians), although the issue in hand is a hot topic in all circles and levels of an Armenian nation, whether ROA is a lending voice for all Armenia remains to be debated (unfortunately). What Domino is saying, I guess, why does genocide had to be represented as a national policy (ROA). It has a moral issue rather then political. Edited November 10, 2003 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 It has been the stand of a current (and previous) government of ROA, in which in many occasions the president stated, we as a country, Armenia has no territorial clams from Turkey, however it is also and mentioned by the president, Armenia can not represent the Diaspora (all Armenians), although the issue in hand is a hot topic in all circles and levels of an Armenian nation, whether ROA is a lending voice for all Armenia remains to be debated (unfortunately). What Domino is saying, I guess, why does genocide had to be represented as a national policy (ROA). It has a moral issue rather then political. I don't know, I always see it as a political issues as well as a moral and legal issue. The fact that Kocharian is saying we have no territorial claims doesn't mean we will not ever have such claims. It is a wise thing to say now, but it doesn't reflect the desires of most Armenians both in and outside of ROA. Turks do not buy it anyway, its a politician's word (like Turkey claims genocide didn't happen). I am not sure about your view that Armenia cannot represent the Diaspora. Kocharian is saying that "every Diaspora Armenian should have a home and business in Armenia". Such rheotoric only suggests that the current gov't has invisioned a role for itself that to a large degree encompasses Diasporan's interests (the reality is a little different though). What about Armenia-Diaspora gatherings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 Sasun hargelis, it's not my view, Genocide is and always will remain a very delicate and emotional issue for majority of us, you said it, a wise decision to sand by, and why does Diaspora-Armenia relations has to be based solely on the genocide issue anyway? There is presently crucial elements presents, such as economy, fight against corruption, for All Armenians, Armenian government can not, and should not take a stand (genocide recognition), and I do fill like we (I) in Diaspora should have more then a critical approach to our presents situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 So am I to understand that Armenian is just another country., and it has not suffered from Genocide? This is not what I am saying. Armenia has suffered, it took many refugies from the Ottoman, orphans etc... But the genocide itself is not the "thing' of a country, more to this, Armenia is less involved in the issue than Turkey would be... because as a "nation" Turkey has a role, on the other hand, Armenia as a "nation" has a little role to play. This is about individual harms, in any way, Armenia will be a country like any other, I know that is a harsh thing to say, but Armenia roles in the negatiation concerning the genocide is not less or more important than any other countries... Armenia may or may not have territorial claims, but those territorial claims will have little to do with the Genocide. I was thinking like you before, but I changed my mind, I really don't think that what Armenia does or does not will be legitimate. An example, if Armenia was to tell that it has no territorial claims, that would in no way take off the legitimity of the claims made by the diasporan Armenians descendents of the Ottoman empire... neither can Armenia do anything about the individual reparation, individual harms etc... any accords signed by Armenia with Turkey concerning those points will have no any legal value. So again, I really fail to see in what front has Armenia any roles to play in this. Sasun, Armenia being an old or a new country does not change anything... this is irrelevant to the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 This is an interesting question Azat - and I'm waiting impatiently for Domino's reponse!! And I'm in agreement with the rest of your post BTW. Who cares negotiating with Turkey... Turkey is a wall, you can't negotiate with a wall... the only avenues is accademic and Juridic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 Sasun, Armenia being an old or a new country does not change anything... this is irrelevant to the discussion. Domino, Armenians are the inheritors of one nation that was the historical Armenia. It doesn't start with today's small Armenia. It does matter if it is a new country or and old country. Historically we are one nation and our problems are also one. This is about individual harms, in any way, Armenia will be a country like any other, I know that is a harsh thing to say, but Armenia roles in the negatiation concerning the genocide is not less or more important than any other countries... Armenia may or may not have territorial claims, but those territorial claims will have little to do with the Genocide.It is not a question of justice for individuals, but for a nation because they were not just a few individuals. I find it very wrong to think that Armenia is just another country like you are suggesting. Ask people in Armenia if they think like you, most of them don't. That is where the answer is, our individual opinions do not matter. Should they one day decide that the Armenian Genocide is not the concern of ROA more than other countries then I will agree with you. But I don't think it will happen. and why does Diaspora-Armenia relations has to be based solely on the genocide issue anyway? There is presently crucial elements presents, such as economy, fight against corruption, for All Armenians, Armenian government can not, and should not take a stand (genocide recognition), and I do fill like we (I) in Diaspora should have more then a critical approach to our presents situation. Edward, I am not saying that Armenia-Diaspora relations should be based on the genocide issue only. All your points are relevant and they should be part of our relations. On the other hand, genocide is a major issue and we cannot change that fact unless a solution is found. It is not easy but we cannot avoid it. Wheter we want it or not, it is also a major factor in our relations. Of course there are also other major issues such as the development of Armenia, I am not negating it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 (edited) Sasun, I am talking about a) you are answering me about b.). You seem to answer me like you feel that I am betraying Armenia or something, or that I am trying to put Armenia in a corner and forget it. I was honnest in the past when I admited that I do not feel Armenia my homeland, I consider it as a homeland, but do not feel it... those things must come from the inside, and like I said, I am honnest unlike a large part of the Diasporan that screem hard and load "Mer Hayrenik" and thinking what they feel has anything to do with a nation... when it is not, what they feel is patriotism which is a different thing. The image of Armenia I have in my mind, is a mythological dream place, ... it is the kind of place for me, like you would feel when you watch the mythological place in Lord of the Rings. You answered me as well as Azat, you both are from Armenia, Martin as well, you guys consider and feel Armenia as your homeland, I envy you for that feeling, you may call it jealousy if you want, you can not feel Armenia your homeland only by wanting it, this is not how it works... I can force my self with no success. Now do you see how, when you talk about Armenia, you are not talking about the same Armenia as what I consider as Armenia? Mine is a mythological land, yours is a true nation... and for the large part of the Diaspora that are not from Armenia, they do feel like that, in the difference that I do admit it, and they don't. Now, suppose that Armenia is the true nation of all Armenians, and that we give to Armenia all the power to discuss the issue of the genocide... then what? I mean, what will it discuss? Land claim, reparation? What do you want Armenia to do? I will excuse the Turkish people for everything, as well as the Turkish republic, if they recognise, but something I won't ever excuse them, is for them to have taken from me the capability to feel what a nation is, this I will never excuse them. Edited November 10, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 Nice post Domino...from the heart..and I share some of your feelings that you have expressed...but I too feel as Azat and the others....and I do not feel tat Armenian is my "homeland" per se..so I don't see that you have really answered to objections to your position (sorry...because I really liked this post of yours...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 (edited) Nice post Domino...from the heart..and I share some of your feelings that you have expressed...but I too feel as Azat and the others....and I do not feel tat Armenian is my "homeland" per se..so I don't see that you have really answered to objections to your position (sorry...because I really liked this post of yours...)Lets put it that way thoth, since you prefer always figurative examples. Would you take a lawyer to defend you when you do not feel he represents you? Edited November 10, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 Well personally I hate lawyers (sorry gams0 - though have a few as friends...but the answer ifs "yes" if thats how I would win my case... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 Well personally I hate lawyers (sorry gams0 - though have a few as friends...but the answer ifs "yes" if thats how I would win my case... Yeh! But in the cases of the lawyer you do know what is "wining" your cases, while in the case at hand, for you wining the cases won't be considered a victory by some others... so the question of whatever or not you do feel the lawyer represent you is more important, because the lawyer may fight for something that if won, you won't consider as victory. But it is even more profound than that... you do consider and feel America as your nation, but you do not feel Armenia as your nation... so how come would you hand the cause at the hand of a body, which you feel alienated from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 Domino - both excellent points and I agree 100%. I am not of the opinion that Armenia should neciisarily represent all Armenians etc - only that as a nation State - and an Armenian one - they need to be a major player - for a variety of reasons...all I have time for now - got to run,.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 For the "Western Armenians", and increasingly for second and third-generation "Eastern Armenians" as well, Armenia cannot be a past, a "dznuntavair", or a nostalgic memory. A huge section of the disapora does not have memories of Ararat from the Yerevan side. They cannot nostalgically think back to good old Yerevan, and it is silly to force themselves or pretend that they have such feelings. For the said Armenians, Armenia can only be a FUTURE. I personally care much more about Armenia becoming that future than how good an advocate it is for a pet issue. When it suceeds in becoming a vibrant, dynamic center of Armenian existence (which we will know happened when diasporans start settling in Armenia in large numbers, reversing the current trend), all issues of relevance could automatically be "trusted" to it. Obsessing about the genocide, when you don't give Armenia at least a probabilistic place in your future is no different from singing at her grave. Nice gesture, but she won't appreciate the song of lamentation from her grave. If there is any take-home message I want to give here, it is: don't be disappointed if you cannot find today's Armenia in your past. Try to make it your future. Failing that, try to make it your grandchildren's future. That future will arrive when going to Armenia evokes emotions akin to going to Disneyland rather than attending an obligatory church service. And until that future arrives, good old-fashioned "preservation" is all most of us can do. Back to square-one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 TwilightBark, good post and I agree. Domino, I don't think of you as a traitor or anything like that, come on man don't say such things And I do appreciate your honesty. What I am saying is that yours is a wrong strategy. I can see your point and understand it coming from a Diasporan individual. You are right, I can't feel in your shoes where there is no motherland Armenia (I wonder if you or other Diasporans here can relate to TB's idea of future Armenia). On the other hand, Domino, I don't think like you. If I understand you correctly, you are talking as a successor of a genocide survivor. As such, you may or maynot want a "lawyer" represent your interests in claims, speaking figuratively. My stance is not that. I am not a successor of a genocide survivor and can't have the same feelings as you do. I don't think that genocide is the problem of survivors only. What about those who didn't survive? Who is going to represent their rights and claims. In all civilized countries murder crimes are punished wheter or not there are survivors (who will represent themselves and their dead). It makes sense right? So then I say, it is only Armenia that is best positioned to represent the victims of the genocide, as well as the survivors of the genocide (if the latter don't mind, and doesn't look like they do).Apart from that, the genocide has very much affected Eastern Armenia's chances for present and future. So even in practical terms it makes sense that ROA has a policy at some convenient time in the future to have land claims. And again, it was our country we have the right to those lands. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 (edited) Sasun, what would Armenia discuss with Turkey? Ah and TB, you stole what I was planning to say on my next post. (about the future and not the past), My nation is yet to be discovered... hmmm... I mean, to be found in Armenia... BTW guys... sorry to change the subject, I am so good at that... Sasun, don't take that as trying to escape the subject... but I had to post it, only for a limited time... (for 10 Nov. tommorow they will take it off) bwahahaha... http://www.ataa.org/ Sorry could not resist... that picture of Ataturk is so funny... I had to post it to relieve myself and share my fun. Edited November 10, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 OK, now my answer Sasun, if Armenia was to represent the Armenians for an eventual negotiation, what will they talk about? I know it sounds a repetition, it is one thing to say Armenia should be the body to represent the Armenians, it is another thing to know what exactlly the negoatiations will be about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 OK, now my answer Sasun, if Armenia was to represent the Armenians for an eventual negotiation, what will they talk about? I know it sounds a repetition, it is one thing to say Armenia should be the body to represent the Armenians, it is another thing to know what exactlly the negoatiations will be about. You are asking a difficult question. Who knows the answer? My answer is, whatever Diaspora groups would want to do Armenia could do a lot easier. For example, Diaspora groups cannot bring questions to the UN or other international forums where only countries can go. This was said above before me. As far as negotiating with Turkey is concerned, again I would say whatever the Diasporan's would want to negotiate Armenia would do a lot better as a country that has a voice of a country as opposed to ethnic groups or lobby groups, and certain ways of exerting power like all countries have to varying degrees. At present, what Armenia is doing is pursuing international recognition of the genocide. This has above the moral significance a political significance. It is a way of pressuring Turkey to seat down at the negotiation table. If not for pressure Turkey will remain a wall like you are suggesting. Give it a few more years and a few more recognitions will follow, Turkey will have a different policy towards Armenia. Its not exactly the wall that will never be broken (I hope). Besides that Turkey's enemies could exploit the question and ally with Armenia, things can move in a more practical and tangible way. What could Diaspora groups do in this regard? Nothing really. So the answer to your question is: it's not only about negotiations but acting in ways that only nation states can act. If you want me to be specific on what exactly should be negotiated I can think about it and maybe get back to you to with suggestions, but what would be the purpose of that? Are you going to negotiations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted November 10, 2003 Report Share Posted November 10, 2003 I will answer tomorrow, as my answer will be a little long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 11, 2003 Report Share Posted November 11, 2003 I will answer tomorrow, as my answer will be a little long. Domino, if it is too long then it is better to put them in several posts. I know how you write Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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