Sasun Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 What do you guys and gals think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 I think yes. If it is not wanted, it is not wanted. And I'm not sure that kids who are not wanted will have a bright life/future. So best not to have one at all. Save someone some pain and agony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 there's always adoption!!! the human heart is big enough to give love, there are many couples who are dying to have children but cannot; the heart is also resilient and strong enough to accept love from biologically unrelated parents, and feel loved and cared for and still know that their biological parents could not/did not want them!! ---even in the case of rape, if love is chosen and a new life is given a chance on earth, then maybe the innocent unborn life will have a chance to be loved! perhaps it would not matter how he was conceived, but what would matter is how he was accepted and loved by the people in his life...maybe THAT'S what matters more than the violent act of conception!!!~~~a life filled with the possibility of love..and that IS something we can have control over, just by being loving and accepting~~~ enough said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_D_G Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 (edited) Abortion shouldn't be used as a form of birth control. Ever heard of condoms, birth control pills, etc.? Taking a human life instead of using a sound means of birth control is a horrible thing to do. On the flipside however, abortion should be limited to acts of rape which is a crime worse than murder. Edited October 19, 2003 by A_D_G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 It should in any case be legal. Education about birth control and the consequences of having sex is a fundamental prevention program for teenagers and adults around the world. However, things can go wrong. Condoms break, morning-after-pill doesn't always work, rape, and even medical conditions in which both mother and child are in danger of losing their lives, should not be taken lightly. Yes, abortion is murder technically speaking, but sometimes it's the only option left for a woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted October 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 Interesting opinions. I think it is a big moral dilemma. Sometimes I think the answer is a flat no, and sometimes I think the answer is 'it depends'. For me personally to answer this question amounts to knowing God's will (which I don't) on a case by case basis. But anyways, the best thing is to play safe in order to avoid such a difficult choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 An old boss of mine once said - "too bad there isn't such thing as retroactive abortions" LOL...yeah  I agree with Stormy's statement - why bring an unloved baby/child into the world...and "Bruin's comment - there are plenty of babies who could be adopted and need loving parents...(though I think Bruin may also be implying that a gal can have a baby and put him/her up for adoption...and yes - this certainly should be an option...but there is already an overabundance of such children in many places...(and its amazing how difficult [and expensive] it can be to adopt... ...obviously there is no simple or right answer to this question. And it obviously shouldn't be used for birth control...and there is certainly a time period where the fetus is viable where it should not be aborted...but I find it funny/sad that mosty of those who are so violently opposed really have no clue concerning the circumstances of most women who find themselves in a situation to make such a decision (and many of these same folks seem to be the same ones who also favor policies to cut benewfits for poor mothers and families, who could care less about nutrition and education etc for the disadvantaged, who do nothing to help those alive in the world who could use such help...so I fiond there over-attention on this issue to be rather disingenuous......and as I have been around gals who have gone through such - having an abortion - (nothing to do directly with me) - I can tell you that it isn't an easy decision at all for anyone. And most who are are in this situation are poor or otherwise unable to really care for such a child. I once dated a gal who would spend the whole day crying on the aniversary of the abortion that she had had prior to meeting me. Sure - it was done for her convience - being a student with no job or much money etc...and it was the result of a lapse...and although the decision tore her heart out and continued to do so - she felt it was the right one...and I'd basically have to agree - she was certainly not "mother" material...and as she had the procedure very early in her pregnancy - I fail to see any real compelling moral issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 I have several close friends who have adopted BTW..one recently "aquirred" a baby form Russia...and what a lucky little boy he is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Abortion is never right, I fail to see anyone telling it is right, or could be right or wrong, it dependent. The choices of the polls are wrong in the first place. Everything in this world don't have to be right or wrong, there are things that just are. Abortion in our industrialised world, the majority of times is wrong, and some times, is neither right or wrong. I can even not believe Sasun that you gave the possibility in your poll to vote "right." It is like telling that you had to kill your dog, because you could not raise this dog. This is NOT right, at the very least, it is neither right neither wrong. If you can not assume the responsability of some of the consequences of having sex, then, don't have sex. This is brutal, but it is true. Giving reasons, such as, it is better for this fetus to never become a baby, because the baby will not be raised with all the love needed, and taking the decision to abord for that reason, don't make your decision any more "right." And this mentality is not a very good justification for someone living in the industrialised world. Who is to tell, that this baby will not have what he need? Who is to say, that there is not already babies that are born in a family that can not provide him all the love needed? Ask the man this baby will become, if he wished to have been born... the majority WILL ANSWER YES !!! Beethoven never had all the love, he was born in a family which, his father was alchoolic, a wife beater, Beethovens father was taking him by his hairs, beating him to force him to play piano. Would it be a better idea for his mother to abord? Beethoven is considered a genious in his Art, and our society would be lacking of what he has produced. I can give MANY and MANY examples such as this... if it was not good for the survival of humanity to have a child in a family which does not care for him like it should, natural selection would just restrict such thing to happen. What, if the fetus that had to become later a person, would have been the person which would have found a cure for Cancer, what if, it would have been the person having found a unification theory of the 4 foundamental atteractions? Or that he was another mother theresa, which having not a so good life(unloved, uncared), has made him someone understanding human suffering, and going in 3rd world countries to try to relieve some of the possible miseries. There is nothing "right" to destroy an order, of cells, of a future child.  Exeptions, there probably is. The poor mother in Africa, that it is evident, the child will die, if he is to born, or that we discover that the child will have an incurable illness... there is as well, rape, and the child being in the head of the mother, the reminder of her psychological murder(the rape). Those things could be understood. As well could be understood, the abortion of a mother, having some psychiatric conditions, and that she can not take have responsabilities, and neither being able to be responsable of her own body by having sex. But even in this cases, the baby could be born. The rest, is just plain wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 This is the deepest of the deep moral questions we have as humans. I believe the choice is for the woman(couple) involved, i'm hard pressed to force my beliefs on any other man. Ppl do get out of hand with it, and it shouldn't be used as birth control. Besides it's tremendously harsh on the female body, not to be taken lightly. I lived in Japan for two years and their numbers were crazy!! Out of ten girls about 6 to 7 had had an abortion. Ridiculous. Within the circle of girls that I knew, it was still about 50 to 70% had had one. The choice is the person's, I'm not going to interfere with that in any way.  peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Abortion is never right, I fail to see anyone telling it is right, or could be right or wrong, it dependent. The choices of the polls are wrong in the first place....You are merely assuming that those living in industrialized societies have it made and are care-free and should have no excuses for their choices. I disagree. Your arguments put material over the individual, psychological need/situation/condition of the individuals who choose to have abortions. Just because there is welfare doesn't mean people are happy or healthy, that simply isn't true; in fact, often times it is quite the opposite. Additionally, industrialized societies provide the opportunity for individuals to indulge solely in themselves. You can't expect people to not make the choices they do, to have the desire to make the choices they do. Industrialized societies allow people to have expectations different from the cave-man's (self-actualization, career, etc., versus being born, making babies and dying), yet human nature stays the same - people want to have sex, and contraception is not fool-proof. As for some genius born, well, you could have had another charismatic mass-murderer born, and never do the situations where these people rise, expend. There will always be Hitler's, there will always be serial killers, Ossama's. I think that is a moot point. Speaking of composers, I'm not sure that they were always mentally healthy - taking Sebastian Bach, Mozart, etc., as examples - they had eccentric behaviour that makes you wonder if they were merely hedonists (or autistic, in the case of Bach who neglected his duty at the church by walking to a town three days' walk away instead of figuring out he could actually pay, in the process wearing his shoes off). Should we really care for their genius considering the pain and agony these people lived and put their families through? I hardly think so. That is an entirely other issue. Moreover, I believe in quality over quantity. You wanna do something, do it right at the time. I also think this discussion is quite futile. Nobody can take away a freedom they have given. Once it's given, it's gonna be a hell of a lot harder to take it back. If there are those that think it's wrong, they are free to have their babies. I by principle think that as long as an abortion can be carried out without jeopardizing the health of the mother (the critical point, crucial stage), it can be done. There is no individual with recognized rights until it is born, and it would have to take a revolution in the human mind for everyone to do that. Maybe it is my outlook on life that is way different, concerning the asking to babies whether they would’ve liked to be born. I for one never begged my parents to make me and really don’t care. At this point however I have all the right to live as anyone else. Strictly business.Just what is right about humans on this planet for abortion to be wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 In other words ... you shouldn't make general policy based on highly unlikley exceptions ... general policies, such as is abortion right or wrong, should target the norms ... so I do agree with Stormeeee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Domino... what do you consider "abortion" ... at what point is it wrong? At the point where the sperm meets the egg? What makes that pile of cels more important than the spider I crushed yesterday? Or are you saying that crushing the spider is also bad? Was it ok to crush that bug? Doesn't the spider have a chance to evolve into a superior being that may be able to write better music than Bach and have alcoholic parents as well?  So if abortion is NEVER right then destroying anything is never right. You really want to make that argument buddy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted October 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Hey Domino, why are you saying I put wrong choices? From what I understand, your answer is really "it depends". Or maybe I should have put a choice "no, but there are a few exceptions" which is techincally "it depends". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 You are merely assuming that those living in industrialized societies have it made and are care-free and should have no excuses for their choices. I disagree. Your arguments put material over the individual, psychological need/situation/condition of the individuals who choose to have abortions. Just because there is welfare doesn't mean people are happy or healthy, that simply isn't true; in fact, often times it is quite the opposite. Additionally, industrialized societies provide the opportunity for individuals to indulge solely in themselves. You can't expect people to not make the choices they do, to have the desire to make the choices they do. Industrialized societies allow people to have expectations different from the cave-man's (self-actualization, career, etc., versus being born, making babies and dying), yet human nature stays the same - people want to have sex, and contraception is not fool-proof. As for some genius born, well, you could have had another charismatic mass-murderer born, and never do the situations where these people rise, expend. There will always be Hitler's, there will always be serial killers, Ossama's. I think that is a moot point. Speaking of composers, I'm not sure that they were always mentally healthy - taking Sebastian Bach, Mozart, etc., as examples - they had eccentric behaviour that makes you wonder if they were merely hedonists (or autistic, in the case of Bach who neglected his duty at the church by walking to a town three days' walk away instead of figuring out he could actually pay, in the process wearing his shoes off). Should we really care for their genius considering the pain and agony these people lived and put their families through? I hardly think so. That is an entirely other issue. Moreover, I believe in quality over quantity. You wanna do something, do it right at the time. I also think this discussion is quite futile. Nobody can take away a freedom they have given. Once it's given, it's gonna be a hell of a lot harder to take it back. If there are those that think it's wrong, they are free to have their babies. I by principle think that as long as an abortion can be carried out without jeopardizing the health of the mother (the critical point, crucial stage), it can be done. There is no individual with recognized rights until it is born, and it would have to take a revolution in the human mind for everyone to do that. Maybe it is my outlook on life that is way different, concerning the asking to babies whether they would’ve liked to be born. I for one never begged my parents to make me and really don’t care. At this point however I have all the right to live as anyone else. Strictly business.Just what is right about humans on this planet for abortion to be wrong? Whom is care free? Is there anyone being enough intelligent to have sex, and have a baby, that is care free? And again, your points have nothing to do with right and wrong. I repeat, what I said with a different wording. THE QUESTION OF, whatever it could be right to have an abortion could even not be asked. Having the choice, or having the right to chose has nothing to do with whatever or not the choice you take is right or wrong. Killing for self-defense, is neither right or wrong, it simply is about killing to not be killed, everything is not about right and wrong. Strictly in terms of human biology, natural selection, abortion is wrong, whatever or not, the abortion has been decided for a good reason, a good reason, does not make the thing in question right or wrong. This again, I come to the poll, I can not view, how anyone could vote for "right." Just think about that, is abortion right? How can this question even be asked. Lets put it that way. Lets post this. I say abortion is right, anyone here taking the decision to have an abortion did RIGHT, because abortion IS RIGHT. Now, just tell me that what I just wrote is accurate. Is it? If you say not, then how can it be possible, that one can even write such a humanity self-destructive choices as giving the possibility to allege that abortion is right.  You can take decisions, good decisions, you can take decisions that you were forced to take, decisions may be neither right or wrong, they may be wrong, but still, you would have chosen that decision as the good one... but that does not mean that the decision you took has anything to do with what is right or wrong. Now, about contraception. A good condom, used correctly, add a pill with that, you have an efficiency of more than 99.999%, this makes a value of less then 1.00001, which is by hundreds(or perhaps thousands) lower than the risks that a woman could die by having an abortion.   ---- Now, about your argument, concerning genius, my point was just an example of how humanity evolve, people are born in every unimaginable possible places, in different situations, humanity has found its equilibratum in that, children are not always wanted, the majority of times, a mother that was near taking the decision for abortion and refused in the last minute, when the child is born, is so happy having taken the decision to have the child. People should learn assuming their responsabilities, you have sex, you get pregnant, and you did nothing to prevent it, if you can't accept being pregnant, and that you did nothing to prevent it, then, just don't have sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Then there's the other thing - the responsibility of taking care of the child is usually left solely to the mother in unmarried couples. I'm sure even the guy who has been trying hardest to be nice and supportive can freak out at some point. That's why nature put sex - pleasure - so two dumb-arses could procreate, hitting with all you've got and see what comes out, regardless of whether they were ready for it. Well, human beings aren't like other animals. There is so much into the psychology if not the social issues, and not every country in the world at this point can be like any in the West (and even then, come to think of it, not every in the West). Boy, guys have it made. Just do it and then deny, "The kid's not my son." And the woman has no way of saying that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted October 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 People should learn assuming their responsabilities, you have sex, you get pregnant, and you did nothing to prevent it, if you can't accept being pregnant, and that you did nothing to prevent it, then, just don't have sex. This is a good point, I also agree.But what you are saying, we don't have a choice to say yes or no, it is only a philosophical type of thinking. Let's face the reality - a woman is pregnant, what is your answer, yes or no? To say that there is no right or wrong choice is not helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Domino... what do you consider "abortion" ... at what point is it wrong? At the point where the sperm meets the egg? What makes that pile of cels more important than the spider I crushed yesterday? Or are you saying that crushing the spider is also bad? Was it ok to crush that bug? Doesn't the spider have a chance to evolve into a superior being that may be able to write better music than Bach and have alcoholic parents as well?  So if abortion is NEVER right then destroying anything is never right. You really want to make that argument buddy? Sip, crushing a spider, is destroying an order, which is wrong, but I do it, and by doing it, I do take the good decision for me, because for me it is a parasit. If the spider was to not be crushed, they will multiply in my home and be a threat for my health, a threat to the higher order(compared to the spider) that I am. My problem here, is that Sasun gave the possibility in the poll, that abortion could be right, and what disturbs me is that some people voted that abortion is right.  How can anyone claim that abortion is right, alleging that abortion is right, and applying Kant... will lead the the total destruction of humanity. Just think of that, the question is not if the decision could be a good decision, but rather, if abortion is right. Of course it is NOT right.    Sasun: I think I voted, it is never right. Because, or it is wrong, and when it is not, it is neither right, neither wrong, but never it is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Then there's the other thing - the responsibility of taking care of the child is usually left solely to the mother in unmarried couples. I'm sure even the guy who has been trying hardest to be nice and supportive can freak out at some point. That's why nature put sex - pleasure - so two dumb-arses could procreate, hitting with all you've got and see what comes out, regardless of whether they were ready for it. Well, human beings aren't like other animals. There is so much into the psychology if not the social issues, and not every country in the world at this point can be like any in the West (and even then, come to think of it, not every in the West). Boy, guys have it made. Just do it and then deny, "The kid's not my son." And the woman has no way of saying that. Stormy, if by my fault, a girl was to be pregnant, I WILL assume my responsabilities as much as I can. The question raised by Sasun, is not, if you are for abortion, let me remind you that the question was about if abortion was right or wrong. What disturb me is that some have VOTE that IT WAS RIGHT. If the question was if you are for abortion, I would answer that in some circonstances, I would agree that abortion could be the good decision... but still I will never ever say that abortion is right, because it isen't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 By saying that someone can be right to choose to have an abortion, I don't mean I would force it on everybody if I had the power to. Bear in mind that the "right" and the "wrong" here are not empirical absolutes - they are more like acceptable and unacceptable. I say it is acceptable because of the reasons given above. A dictator would say it isn't, would disregard all arguments, and would ban it. Speaking of biology, natural selection, all that... Humans are the most bizarre of creatures to endorse control on sex. Most animals start mating as soon as they get their urges! What about us? We have taboos that drive a lot of people into unhappiness. Looking for traits of personality rather than brute strength, beauty, etc., in a partner aren't "natural," either. Via natural selection, the ugly and physically weak, even if sweet, would be weeded out. And, going back to my previous post about responsibility - animals don't have responsibility. They mate and they live by instincts. We mate and we're supposed to have responsibility to raise this stink-pile for 18 years? We still have our urges, but it's not that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 By saying that someone can be right to choose to have an abortion, I don't mean I would force it on everybody if I had the power to. Bear in mind that the "right" and the "wrong" here are not empirical absolutes - they are more like acceptable and unacceptable. I say it is acceptable because of the reasons given above. A dictator would say it isn't, would disregard all arguments, and would ban it. Speaking of biology, natural selection, all that... Humans are the most bizarre of creatures to endorse control on sex. Most animals start mating as soon as they get their urges! What about us? We have taboos that drive a lot of people into unhappiness. Looking for traits of personality rather than brute strength, beauty, etc., in a partner aren't "natural," either. Via natural selection, the ugly and physically weak, even if sweet, would be weeded out. And, going back to my previous post about responsibility - animals don't have responsibility. They mate and they live by instincts. We mate and we're supposed to have responsibility to raise this stink-pile for 18 years? We still have our urges, but it's not that simple. Stormy dear. The question isen't if abortion could be right, but rather it is right. Again, taking the right decision, does not mean that something has to be right or wrong, right and wrong are different concepts, and have little to do with taking the good or the bad decision. In many cases, right and wrong are even not concerned, because the thing in question could neither be right, neither be wrong, but rather just be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Stormy, if by my fault, a girl was to be pregnant, I WILL assume my responsabilities as much as I can. Well, that's just you, then. Usually, I'd think, easier said than done.No, what I mean is, given societies can evolve to the point where single mothers aren't abhorred and all, we just see dads not assuming their roles. Under such circumstances, even if they can raise their kids without getting razed at, why should the mother be "taking responsibility"? Nobody cares either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 ... We mate and we're supposed to have responsibility to raise this stink-pile for 18 years? We still have our urges, but it's not that simple. One of my favorite scenes from "Southpark" (this is from memory so it may not be 100% accurate) ... Cartman's mom goes to the doctor and says she wants to have an abortion. Doctor says how far along? She says ... eighth ... doctor says wow that's a bit far and we don't normally do abortions in the third trimester ... that's when she says ... oh no, he is 8 years old  Domino, I agree with you that "abortion is right" as a sentence doesn't make sense but I think we know what Sasun and the voters meant. Abortion is right when the parent chooses to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 OK, I think then a clarification is in order. By saying abortion is right, nobody is actually championing it or endorsing or forcing it! My stance is that nobody should have qualms about having an abortion if they feel strongly that way. Moreover, when asked, "Is abortion right"? a lot of people directly relate that to "Should abortion be legal?" I really can't separate the two - it is impractical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Yes! I do agree with you, but in those circonstances, right and wrong are not even concerned, it is about taking a good or bad decision for you, and possibly for the child to come(if that can even be said). But again, what the hell does right and wrong have anything to do here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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