Teutonic Knight Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Chechens ready to assist Azeris in Artsax front 14.10.2003 01:04 YEREVAN. (YERKIR). - If the situation on the Artsax border escalates, the Chechens will be fighting against Armenians, Maribek Tamarov, a Chechen human rights activist currently residing in Baku told the Baku-based newspaper Echo. "I know from the mood of Chechens that in case of a confrontation, the Chechens would be on the front line for the Azerbaijani independence fight," Tamarov was quoted as saying. He also said he regretted that the Azerbaijani authorities yielded before Russia's pressure, and did not allow representatives of Chechens to take part in a Council of Europe sponsored seminar held in Baku on October 6 to 11. "You cannot trust the Russian delegation. Rushailo says one thing, and Putin discusses other things with the Armenians," he added, referring to the statement by Rushailo, Secretary of Russia's Security Council, who, during his recent visit to Baku, discussed with the Azerbaijani authorities the issue of banning the Chechen organizations in Azerbaijan. In 1993-1994, along with Afghanis, many Chechens were fighting against the Artsax forces with some of them captured by the Armenians. In his 1995 TV interview to a Russian TV channel, field commander Shamil Basayev had confessed that the defeat at Martakert in Artsax was his only defeat. http://www.yerkir.am/eng/index.php?sub=new...ews_arm&id=3611 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 (edited) Reading the above article, I immediately had a problem with this Tamarov guy. He, himself a Chechen, is failing to differentiate between regular Chechen civilians and the rebels. Moscow even has the sense to separate the two! One can even further define the different kinds of rebels (those that are merely fighting for freedom vs. the religious fanatics). But anyway, the only kind of Chechen that I can think of that would bother coming to Azerbaijan and fight is the Islamic fundamentalist Wahhabi, and for religious reasons. Is this who Tamarov is talking about? Without specifying, he is making very dangerous statements. Needless to say, these same Wahhabis are probably most hated by their own people!!! I honestly can't see this as being such an issue. Chechens have enough problems of their own. Any religious affinity they may have with Azeris is seriously overplayed by the media. Most Chechens are not THAT religious AND let's not forget Chechens' military assistance to the (mostly) Christian Abkhaz during early 1990s. BTW: In the Armenian Russian-language forums everyone seems likewise a bit confused as to the logic behind this - the Chechens' participation on the Azeri side was not that significant, and that in fact even Azeris aren't all that excited about their help anyways... but I don't know enough about it. But I know enough to doubt this Tamarov's motives. <_< Edited December 1, 2003 by Khazar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 oh man.. those Chechens are BAD NEWS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggyWiggy Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 They really are not good people either! Sure they want their freedom, and the only way to do it is through terrorism... But they want to fight everyone... Good News is, Armenian gets closer to Russia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 (edited) They really are not good people either! Sure they want their freedom, and the only way to do it is through terrorism... But they want to fight everyone... In 1944 Stalin exiled the whole Chechen people en masse to Kazakhstan. According to some figures, half of all Chechens died. This fairly recent event is obviously still within the living memory of many. That was then, but have you read anything about what the Russians have been doing to the Chechens just in the past decade? And even right now? The systematic human rights abuses that are being committed there are some of the most disturbing and ghastly. Here is a tidbit from an interviewee in a Human Rights Watch Report from Chechnya, "Welcome to Hell" 2000: DON'T READ THIS IF YOU'RE SQEAMISH. "The woman that was with us in the vehicle [name witheld] was forty-two years old and has four children, she is from Tolstoy-Yurt. That evening when men were interrogated, that woman was beaten mercilessly. Judging from the noise, I could guess that she was being beaten with the rubber sticks, she was beaten. She was beaten for ten or fifteen minutes, with some pauses of one or two minutes. The, for half an hour we didn't hear her at all. We could hear everything that was going on in the jail, but could not see everything. In half an hour we understood that she had been raped. The soldiers were using bad language and this lasted for about thirty minutes." And another from the same report: "They also used electric power, they made you touch the wires. They just give you the wires and you are not allowed to see what it is, you just have to grab it. When I touched the wires, I felt like my eyes were going to pop out. This was the interrogation room. They made you stand with your hands up. Two soldiers hold you from behind and made you touch the wires. They shocked me like this once. After the interrogation, they took me back to my cell. I was unable to walk out because of the pain, and had to crawl back." For many Chechens, fighting Russia is not so much about freedom as it is about avenging the humiliation and death that they have been subjected to by Russian forces. I'm not making a moral stance about it, I'm just stating that as a fact. Good News is, Armenian gets closer to Russia. This is probably good news for Armenia in the short term. But we should also know, and KNOW WELL, WHO Russia is and what it has done to another Caucasian people, before we can RESPONSIBLY accept its assistance. Edited December 3, 2003 by Khazar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Khazar.. Armenians had it WAY worse than the Chechens... But you dont see us with bombs strapped to our chests and killing civilians.. Why is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 (edited) Armo77, the two cases just cannot be compared, each case has its specificities. Fact remains this is going on RIGHT NOW as we speak. Why choose to ignore one historical tragedy just to say yours is worse? Isn't that how these things keep happening? Don't we say that about Jews who try to downplay the Genocide? Are people aware that many people in Russia don't give a crap what country you come from - if you're from the Caucasus, you will be harassed by police, called a black-*ss, beaten up, and treated like a 3rd class citizen, and sometimes murdered. They don't care if you're Armenian, Chechen, Georgian, whatever. Being Armenian in Russia doesn't make you special. As to who had it worse...you can't possibly attempt to measure human suffering. Edited December 3, 2003 by Khazar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 (edited) But back to my question... Why don’t we Armenians put bombs on ourselves and blow up civilians? Especially if you say " Armenian, Chechen, Georgian, whatever. Being Armenian in Russia doesn't make you special." What makes us different in THAT aspect? My point is that the Chechens have NO reason to do those things.. NO MATTER HOW BAD THEY WERE AND ARE TREATED! Civilians should not be purposely blown up and living in fear even if they are Russian, American, Jews, OR WHOEVER! Edited December 3, 2003 by Armo77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Khazar.. Armenians had it WAY worse than the Chechens... But you dont see us with bombs strapped to our chests and killing civilians.. Why is that? Cause nobody promised as seventy virgins! Man, don’t I feel left out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 If you read my first post, or if you read anything about the conflict, you will see that it is not all Chechens that do that sort of thing. My comment about Armenians in Russia was to dispel the myth about our "Russian allies". And if you're asking about the difference between Armenians, Georgians and Chechens with regards to Russia: Armenia is not experiencing systematic human rights abuses by Russia like, "zachistki" security sweeps, murder and torture on its territory. And the territory of Armenia was not bombed by Russia last year (August) as Georgia was. Why don't Armenians blow themselves up? The above reasons are probably why. And if hostilities were to begin again, I still don't think Armenians would blow themselves up. And it's not because we are so smart and sensible and good. It's because we're not that desperate. We have our own republic, an army, our diasporans are generally well-off, educated and self-sufficient. In short, we have a future. That's just not the case in Chechnya, or Palestine for example. But back to the issue that was put forth in the VERY first place... Maribek Tamarov's statements should from the start raise some doubts. First of all, he's reporting from Baku. Secondly, he is not specifying WHICH Chechens he is talking about: there are so many factions and allegiances and clans that its just stupid to lump them all in one group. The article mentions Basaev, but given the current situation in Chechnya after the "elections" I seriously doubt Basaev is worrying about the situation in Artsax. Basaev has his eyes on Kadyrov and Moscow. Someone somewhere mentioned that the NK army is probably the most battle-ready in the Former Soviet Union. What do you guys think? NK obviously doesn't have the nuclear arsenal that Russia and Ukraine has, but I think the NK army is an army to reckon with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 nice speech.. Back to the topic... Its going to bad news for Armenia when the Chenchens join Islamic Azerbaijan in thier evil deeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Cause nobody promised as seventy virgins! Man, don’t I feel left out LMAO.. Well ONE armenian Lady is enough for me to handle anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrystalHye Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 TELL ME NEWS!!!!!!!!!! "Chechens are gonna help azeris to fight against Armenians". THIS IS NOT NEWS!!!!! We fought against chechens in the past war also. In shoushi, we caught several chechen mujahidins and several afghan mujahidins. We caought several of them and couple of them are still being held as prisoners. There were some that actually were executed after getting captured, and you don't wanna know how they died. They fought against us before so this is not news for us and we are not scared of them. Trust me!!! Let those chechens come again. We all know what's gonna happen to those camel breeders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I heard of "Crystal Meth" but not "Crystal Hye" LOL j/k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggyWiggy Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Does not matter. Armenians have been crap in the USSR during the Stalin years. And in the years after, Armenia was the "Silicon Valley of the USSR" Chechens are not going to do anything, Chechens would have been erased if the UN did not stop Russia. Russia was going to Bio Bomb the Chechens on order of Yeltsin, but was stopped. Gay laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Trust me!!! Let those chechens come again. We all know what's gonna happen to those camel breeders. would YOU be there at that time?if no, don't make such statements. may war never errupt again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggyWiggy Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Of course no war. Armenia better do something...because I am tired of lack of movement... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 what happens if the Azeris forces decide to come walking over the border.. Do we just give them a welcoming party with some tea and paklava? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggyWiggy Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 No. But you do not want to fight them either. Just sit down and talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 nice speech.. Back to the topic... Its going to bad news for Armenia when the Chenchens join Islamic Azerbaijan in thier evil deeds It wasn't a speech. Be careful where you use the word Islamic. Or Christian, for that matter. BOTH Armenia and Azerbaijan (excluding populists from both sides) have avoided characterizing this conflict as a religious one, because to do so would be a huge mistake. I remember a few years back, Baroness Caroline Cox (British woman who has taken up various causes of Christian peoples, Armenian as well) wrote an open letter to Parliament calling for support of the Armenian NK cause as a cause of a Christian people against Muslim. She got some angry letters from, yes, Armenian politicians and intelligentsia who advised her never to do anything like that again. This whole topic obviously has religious overtones, but then how do you explain all those Chechen fighters who went to Christian Abkhazia to help them fight for independence? PiggyWiggy, I can't figure out what you're trying to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 (edited) It wasn't a speech. Be careful where you use the word Islamic. Or Christian, for that matter. BOTH Armenia and Azerbaijan (excluding populists from both sides) have avoided characterizing this conflict as a religious one, because to do so would be a huge mistake. I remember a few years back, Baroness Caroline Cox (British woman who has taken up various causes of Christian peoples, Armenian as well) wrote an open letter to Parliament calling for support of the Armenian NK cause as a cause of a Christian people against Muslim. She got some angry letters from, yes, Armenian politicians and intelligentsia who advised her never to do anything like that again. This whole topic obviously has religious overtones, but then how do you explain all those Chechen fighters who went to Christian Abkhazia to help them fight for independence? PiggyWiggy, I can't figure out what you're trying to say.I know its over territory.. Do you think I just parachuted into this world and don't know anything? But What other reason would other Islamic groups rush to help Azerbaijan? Doesn't it scare you that Armenia is one of the few Christian countries in the region during this day and age of extremism? And the ONLY reason Cox got angry letters from Armenian "politicians and intelligentsia" was not because they have so much love and respect for the Islamic religion.. It was because they were scared of a Jihad being called on Armenia. I mean come on... Call a spade, a Spade. We as civilians can openly say these things, unfortunatly politicians can not. Edited December 4, 2003 by Armo77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggyWiggy Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 No... Arabs are not that kind of people to go after Armenians...At least not the ones from syria, jordan, iraq, lebanon, and egypt. Islamic cooks go crazy like that and attack Armenia...Armenians are one of the only few christian people who walk into an arab country and have no hard time... So what you said right now Armo, how a Jihad on Armenia...take that and shove it up your A** Im tired of you...and khazar, and TOOHT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 PiggyWiggy, Your posts are incoherent. I merely asked you for a clarification. If you're sick of us, you are more than welcome to not participate. We don't have to all agree with each other, but we are at least contributing (or trying to ) to a debate. Resorting to vulgarity delegitimizes any argument you may have had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Stupid little kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggyWiggy Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Stupid little kid. You are a funny guy Armo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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