Why Are There Armenian Protestants?

[Arad9]

Should not this debate be under the subject topic of Mythology?

Read on.

Dear Arad and Onnig, Our house theologians. I don’t understand even one word of what you both are saying, neither do I want to understand, theology is not one of my fortes and neither will it be. I would rather stick to mythology, it is more fun. Is not what you are doing tantamount to “beating water/jour tsetsel”?

Would you guys kindly tell us that the patarag is a native Armenian word and that it was invented by Christians Armenians. It is a Sanskrit Persian word that loosely means gif/offering** and the word was used many centuries before Christianity. And while we’re at you could also tells which of these words are Christian Armenian inventions. Is it “patriarch” which is a Latin word to mean “supreme/main father”, is it “vardapet” which in fact is a Persian word that means “temple guard” and it was used many centuries before Christianity, or is it “kahana” from the Assyrian to mean a” magician soothsayer”, it is also found in most of the Middle Eastern languages, consider the Judaic “cohen”. Maybe you think “sarkavag” is an Armenian word which is from the Persian “sar-kawak” to mean “head -servant”. Of course we cannot ignore “abegha”(monk) from the Assyrian to mean sad, lonesome, it is found in other neighboring languages, even Arabic “abeel/old man”- see below. Do please tell us which of these are Christian Armenian inventions. Not to forget “katholicos” which is a Greek word to mean “universal” like the Catholic church “tiezerakan”.

OK, could you guys please, before we sink deep into that highly sophisticated theological discussion tell us which of the above are native Christian Armenian inventions, including the “patarag”. To se what “offering” is read the OT, particularly Leviticus (that were written centuries before Christianity) and see the million prescriptions about animal sacrifice, and also see what Jesus did to the animal merchants at the temple.

The myth of Abel and Cain , sons of Adam and Eve is an allegory that deals with offering, patarag if you will, and it is not the only one in that Book. Btw, this myth is not of Judaic origin simply based on the fact it happens at or near the fabled Garden of Eden, which no matter where was not in Judea. And, as it is obvious it “happened?” millennia before Christianity. The story is an allegory, a parable to promote “animal sacrifice/offering”. To refresh our memory- Abel was in the business of animal husbandry and Cain was in agriculture. god (lower case G) demanded that they make offerings, naturally each brought the fruit of their profession, Abel - a young animal and Cain - fruit of his fields. As the myth goes god liked the former’s gift which eventually ended up Cain killing his brother Abel.***

 

And now,

 

DEAR THEOLOGIANS, DO PLEASE TELL US THAT THE RITE OF OFFERING/SACRIFICE/PATARAG IS A CHRISTIAN ARMENIAN INVENTION.

 

** Do remember that when we use the word “offering” it is only part of the full phrase of “burnt offering”, remember the Armenian word “voghjakez”- “burned/incinerated alive”.

***To Me the most disturbing part of this myth is that the good guy, Abel was murdered, and the murderer survived and, he being the only surviving male makes him the sole ancestor of mankind. Yeah! Tell us more ridiculous stories. Why is this stupid story even in the Bible?

 

 

Dear Arpa

I don't care where the words originated. I thank you for pointing out the word Badarak means gift offering and not communication.

There are people out there like Jehovah witness Mormons and Calvinist that set people against Armenians and whatever Armenians have stood for. They are enemies of The Armenian Church and whatever have Armenians stood for past 2000 years. Would you like your kids to be raised that way? Would you want you kids to be raised an anti Armenian?

Onnig says the Armenian Church is heretical. He also thinks the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and every historical Church are heretical. The true gospel was never understood until he came along.

Onnig

Where did you get that we sacrifice Christ over and over?

What is a heretic? Is it whoever doesn't understand the bible the way you do? Can you name one church that doesn't think they have the right interpretation?

Heresy is the rejection of the established teachings (orthodoxy). Your teachings rejects orthodoxy.

 

[Arpa]

Dear Arpa

I don't care where the words originated. I thank you for pointing out the word Badarak means gift offering and not communication.

There are people out there like Jehovah witness Mormons and Calvinist that set people against Armenians and whatever Armenians have stood for. They are enemies of The Armenian

Can I say this? Maybe not!

F*** the jewhovahs, morons and calvins. how much more intelligent are they than you an I? I have spoken to many of them, they don't make a sh** of sense. WE don't need all that gobbledigook. All we need a message that say-"It is better to be good than bad". It is better to save lives than murder, it is better to love than hate. Is there a better commandment?

What do they have to do with our Mother Church?

Why is our Mother Church so afraid of them? Is it because they speak with everyday plain "english/armenian" than all that gobbledigook "patarag" business?

You don't care where the word originated? Then you better learn Armenian history and learn that it did not start on 301AD, and that we were making patarag/offering for thousands of years before that.

Why is armenianism always identified with jew-christianty?

Please show us how less an Armenian am I, who does not believe in any of those myths?

Also look here;

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7065&hl=hayer

Edited January 8, 2008 by Arpa

[Arad9]

Can I say this? Maybe not!

F*** the jewhovahs, morons and calvins. how much more intelligent are they than you an I? I have spoken to many of them, they don't make a sh** of sense. WE don't need all that gobbledigook. All we need a message that say-"It is better to be good than bad". It is better to save lives than murder, it is better to love than hate. Is there a better commandment?

What do they have to do with our Mother Church?

Why is our Mother Church so afraid of them? Is it because they speak with everyday plain "english/armenian" than all that gobbledigook "patarag" business?

You don't care where the word originated? Then you better learn Armenian history and learn that it did not start on 301AD, and that we were making patarag/offering for thousands of years before that.

Why is armenianism always identified with jew-christianty?

Please show us how less an Armenian am I, who does not believe in any of those myths?

Also look here;

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7065&hl=hayer

 

I don't run away. I simply expose.

Jews offered a sacrifice before Christianity. Christianity is the continuation of Judaism. Christ is the lamb. 301ad Christianity as a nation started not a new religion. Christianity existed even before that.

It is better to be good? What is good? is using foul language good? People who murder think they are doing something good; there is always a reason for why they are killing.

 

[Ashot]

Arad, do you want to expose to the whole world that no one beleived in GOD before CHRIST? or you want to expose that Joodism startet it all... please do make sense about it, statement says ARMENIAN NATION IS THE FIRST NATION TO ACCEPT CHRISTIANITY IN WHOLE... do you need it to be exlained? or is it you wanted to tell us that we are joos? One more thing I would love to hear a good reason for killing - just one... you give me one good reason for killing I will accept your statement that we are joos...

oh yes I forgot to add another thing on top of that - would you kindly please explain to me what does Joodaism stand for, where did this word originate from... We all know the worf Christianity came from, but I would love to know where the word Joodism, Joodaism came from!!!

Edited January 9, 2008 by Ashot

[Arad9]

Arad, do you want to expose to the whole world that no one beleived in GOD before CHRIST? or you want to expose that Joodism startet it all... please do make sense about it, statement says ARMENIAN NATION IS THE FIRST NATION TO ACCEPT CHRISTIANITY IN WHOLE... do you need it to be exlained? or is it you wanted to tell us that we are joos? One more thing I would love to hear a good reason for killing - just one... you give me one good reason for killing I will accept your statement that we are joos...

oh yes I forgot to add another thing on top of that - would you kindly please explain to me what does Joodaism stand for, where did this word originate from... We all know the worf Christianity came from, but I would love to know where the word Joodism, Joodaism came from!!!

 

We are not Jews, we are gentiles. We are the continuation of the Old Testament. Christians are the true people of God today. Most Jews rejected Christ.

Jews are named Jewish because they are from the tribe of Judah. Judah probably was Armenian so was Noah and Abraham.

We were the first nation to accept Christianity as a whole. I never said we are Jews; Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism therefore The Old Testament Book belongs to us.

Here are good excuses that criminals use to justify killing. When people disrespect you then it's ok to kill.

What if someone kills your spouse is it ok to kill them? What about death penalty? What about going to war?

Why should people obey Arpas commandments? If you don't believe in God you can't have moral absolute.

 

[Yervant1]

Judah probably was Armenian so was Noah and Abraham.

While at it why don't you say God was/is Armenian as well.

 

[Arpa]

We are not Jews, we are gentiles. We are the continuation of the Old Testament. Christians are the true people of God today. Most Jews rejected Christ.

Jews are named Jewish because they are from the tribe of Judah. Judah probably was Armenian so was Noah and Abraham.

We were the first nation to accept Christianity as a whole. I never said we are Jews; Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism therefore The Old Testament Book belongs to us.

Here are good excuses that criminals use to justify killing. When people disrespect you then it's ok to kill.

What if someone kills your spouse is it ok to kill them? What about death penalty? What about going to war?

Why should people obey Arpas commandments? If you don't believe in God you can't have moral absolute.

For a while I thought you knew what you were talking about. I even toyed with the notion that you and Onnig may be officers/clergy of the curch. I should have known better.

Thoueth knoweth noteth whateth thoueth speaketh Howeth iseth thateth "grabareth Englisheth"? In plain English- You know not what you speak of .

Come back when when you learn more about "religion/miiligion". Come back back when ypu learn that A as in Armenian is not the same as R as in religion neithr it is the same as C as in Christianity That is, when you learn that Buddhism, Islam, Shinto and Shamanism, Judaism/schmudaism, whatever the H it may mean, are also religions.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Arpa

[Ashot]

Arad toyour response... if we are talking about giving a good reason for killin does not include someone killed your wife therefore it's ok to kill him... what was the reason for the wife to be killed start from there, it's murder vs murder start from the begining, it all started from the first killer, then what would be to good reason for the first killing - still not good enoug... killing is wrong and unecaptabel... then we come to the conversation where - someone kills my wife, I kill him, his brother kills me, my son kills his brother, his son killes my son there is your war... and it's wrong, just simply wrong...

[Arad9]

Arad toyour response... if we are talking about giving a good reason for killin does not include someone killed your wife therefore it's ok to kill him... what was the reason for the wife to be killed start from there, it's murder vs murder start from the begining, it all started from the first killer, then what would be to good reason for the first killing - still not good enoug... killing is wrong and unecaptabel... then we come to the conversation where - someone kills my wife, I kill him, his brother kills me, my son kills his brother, his son killes my son there is your war... and it's wrong, just simply wrong...

 

Who told you killing is wrong? Some people like those who murder don't think it's wrong.

What if one doesn't think it's wrong and could murder another without getting caught by the police. What’s wrong with that?

What's wrong with what the Turks did to Armenians? There is no God it's only your opinion that it's wrong.

No God no moral absolute.

 

[Ashot]

wow, and I tought you do beleive in GOD... thank you for your answer, you are right killing is ok... here I live and pray for me not to get involved in a situation where I would be forced to kill (different situations may cause this - if an explanation needed I'll be more than happy to provide) and there you go and tell me that there is nothing wrong with killing and there is no GOD... thank you now I know what to do - start killing if I find a simple excuse for it and make sure not to get caught!

[Arad9]

wow, and I tought you do beleive in GOD... thank you for your answer, you are right killing is ok... here I live and pray for me not to get involved in a situation where I would be forced to kill (different situations may cause this - if an explanation needed I'll be more than happy to provide) and there you go and tell me that there is nothing wrong with killing and there is no GOD... thank you now I know what to do - start killing if I find a simple excuse for it and make sure not to get caught!

 

What I'm saying is if one doesn't believe in God then there is no moral absolute. who are you to tell him killing is wrong?

I do believe in God this is why I don't kill people even though it might feel good to do so at times. I can’t cheat on my wife because I fear God, even though it would probably feel good to cheat. I have a mechanic shop and I can rip off people and make more money but I fear God so I don't.

If you don't believe in God what keeps you from doing all the bad things?

 

[Arpa]

wow, and I tought you do beleive in GOD... thank you for your answer, you are right killing is ok... here I live and pray for me not to get involved in a situation where I would be forced to kill (different situations may cause this - if an explanation needed I'll be more than happy to provide) and there you go and tell me that there is nothing wrong with killing and there is no GOD... thank you now I know what to do - start killing if I find a simple excuse for it and make sure not to get caught!

Maybe in your mechanic shop you don't cheat peoplen because of "fear of God"? Or isi t because of "fear of insurance companies and the police"?

I hsvr many mechsnic snd body shop operating friends who often don't chsrge me a penny for minor works, not because they fear God, yes they are God fearing people, but mainly because they are decent human people/ friends. What does God/insurance adjustors and police have to do here, except human moral decency? I end up paying them to the last penny plus gratuity for their employess(who may not even be Chrsitians by our defintion) knowing full well thet they are honest and God (police) Fearing. Yes, most of my mechanics and body people are Armenian, with some esceptions. But would I trust a service person simply becasue their surname ends in IAN? Sorry to say, I have seen otherwise. I love my body man and mechanic otherwise, both of which are not so called "apostlic Armenians", in spite of which they are moral Armenian people.

Let me add. I never bicker about the cost of repairs with them as I know and trust that their estimates, be it God inspired or not, are fair and, considering their overhead, cost effective. Do you offer free srevice, regardless of yout oaverhead simply in the name and service of God? Get down to the world!!!

It reminds me of the time when I needed a specialized part for my heating-refrigeration system I ended up at a warehouse run by an Armenian, whose knowledge of Armenian did not go beyond the Big G, who, apparently frustrated, when he learned I was Armenian opened his "baggage", begam frothing at the mouth and started sermonizing me with Armeno-Furkish, Armeno-American, American Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea and VietNam stuff, for hours until I exesperatedly had to say- "So, how much is the cost of this part"?

Armenians need altrenate means to vent their frustrations!!

Edited January 13, 2008 by Arpa

[Arad9]

Arad, have I told you that you are full of kov-kaka?

Maybe in your nmechanic shop you don't cheat peoplen because of "fear of God"? Or isi t because of "fear of insurance companies and the police"?

I hsvr many mechsnic snd body shop opersting friends who often don't chsrge me a penny for minor works, not because they fer God, yes they God fearing people, but mainly because they are decent human people/ freinds. What does God/insurance adjustors and police have to do here, except human moral decency?

Let me add. I never bicker about the cost of repairs with them as I know and trust that their estimates, be it God inspired or not, are fair and, considering their overhead, cost effective. Do you offer free srevice, regardless of yout oaverhead simply in the name and service of God? Get down to the world!!!

why not charge for parts withour replacing the parts if I know I won't get caught?

Arpa I think you are a bad person for using foul language so what is the difference if I become bad and cheat?

Why shouldn't I cheat and be richer? what if I know I can get away with certain things, should I do it and make more money?

[Arpa]

why not charge for parts withour replacing the parts if I know I won't get caught?

Arpa I think you are a bad person for using foul language...

"foul language"?

You ain't seen not'n yet! I know more "foul" words to describe the hypocrites of the likes of you who hide behind the veil of "Christian Armenian" to spread their hatred.

[Anoushik]

Why shouldn't I cheat and be richer? what if I know I can get away with certain things, should I do it and make more money?

The choice to cheat or not to cheat has nothing to do with God. A God-fearing person can cheat then go to the Church and pray for forgiveness.

 

I don't believe in God and I don't cheat. Why? Because I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that that money I earned cheating in essence was stolen.

[Arpa]

The choice to cheat or not to cheat has nothing to do with God. A God-fearing person can cheat then go to the Church and pray for forgiveness.

 

I don't believe in God and I don't cheat. Why? Because I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that that money I earned cheating in essence was stolen.

Anoushik, you are so right. Many may describe me as an atheistic cynic. Why not?

I am!

I have always reviewed my pay stub to see if I was paid for hours and minutes not earned, aside from the omition of otherwise earned hours and minutes.

What does religion have to do with human moral conscience? How many times have I called the timekeeper of certain sites to please add, subtract or otherwise amend my time card?

How does religion come here, when I, an atheist attested by many here, have been taught to never accept a compensation that was not earned.

How has that make me poorer or richer? I am not poor, neither am I rich by many standards, bu I don't have collectors and police knocking at my door day and night.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Arpa

[Arad9]

"foul language"?

You ain't seen not'n yet! I know more "foul" words to describe the hypocrites of the likes of you who hide behind the veil of "Christian Armenian" to spread their hatred.

 

Why is it ok for you to spread hatred by using foul word? Why are you spreading hatred towered The Armenian Church?

 

Anoushik

Why is stealing bad? I think the reason you can't live with yourself is because all these God believing people have told you stealing is wrong.

If you don't get caught and you will make more money Why not convince yourself stealing is good?

This is the thought behind criminals. They kill because they don't feel there are consequence. People who believe in God sin because they don't have enough faith if one really had faith that they will pay for their action eternally they wouldn't sin. We all lack perfect faith.

 

[Anoushik]

Anoushik

Why is stealing bad? I think the reason you can't live with yourself is because all these God believing people have told you stealing is wrong.

If you don't get caught and you will make more money Why not convince yourself stealing is good?

This is the thought behind criminals. They kill because they don't feel there are consequence. People who believe in God sin because they don't have enough faith if one really had faith that they will pay for their action eternally they wouldn't sin. We all lack perfect faith.

I was taught stealing is bad by my parents, and they are not religious.

 

If I steal, that means I'm taking somebody else's money and hurting him/her financially. Because as a human being I have the ability to put myself in another person's shoes and feel their pain, I don't want to hurt them like that. Just like I wouldn't others to steal from me, I don't want to steal from others. Simple as that. I think most human beings are capable of compassion (just very few are not, like psychopaths) but through their ego or bad upbringing they close their eyes and justify their bad behavior. Religion has been created to subdue those people who are prone to cheating, but as we can see religion doesn't work.

 

[onnig]

I've read your link and this is why I point out your misunderstanding. The body and blood is a sacrifice but can you show anywhere where the church teach We are sacrificing Christ over again?

I've also point out no Church have denied the view of The Armenian Church even Luther and Calvin believed in the real body and blood, would you say they are heretics as well?

 

You are evading the text and bringing up Luther and Calvin. You actually think Luther and Calvin believed the same way the AAC and Rome believes the badarak/mass to be? Luther's position has been controversial. Luther believed in a real presence but not transubstantiation, the bread and wine do not change, and he surely did not believe it to be a sacrifice to atone for sin. He did not hold to the mass as Rome and the AAC does, as a sacrifice of the real presence of Christ. Calvin most assuredly did not believe this. Just read his Institutes and you'll see. But in any case, neither Luther, nor Calvin, nor Chrysostom, nor Augustine or any other saint have authority to dictate doctrine. We read the interpretations they have and follow their line of thinking and see for ourselves, THROUGH SCRIPTURE ALONE BECAUSE SCRIPTURE INTERPRETS SCRIPTURE, if what they are saying is consistent with God's Word.

 

I can show you many sources how many saints in history did not believe in transubstantiation and a sacrifice to atone for sin at the mass.

 

What is a heresy from your view is it if one doesn't understand the bible the way you do?

 

I am not going to answer any of your rediculous claims about me. This is obviously not true and I've explained myself to you many times at the unshakable forums. I'm glad you posted on the forums at armeniansforchrist.com. I only hope you are looking for an answer instead of trying to always give one.

[Ashot]

Why is stealing bad? I think the reason you can't live with yourself is because all these God believing people have told you stealing is wrong.

If you don't get caught and you will make more money Why not convince yourself stealing is good?

This is the thought behind criminals. They kill because they don't feel there are consequence. People who believe in God sin because they don't have enough faith if one really had faith that they will pay for their action eternally they wouldn't sin. We all lack perfect faith.

so you think a faithfull person cannot commit a sin? you should think twice my friend... a very faithfull person can commit a sin that a none faithfull person can never imagine of... so please stop preaching you sound like a JEOVAS WITNESS, by the way have they witnessed Jeova, if they have what the heck have they witnessed?

[Arad9]

I was taught stealing is bad by my parents, and they are not religious.

 

If I steal, that means I'm taking somebody else's money and hurting him/her financially. Because as a human being I have the ability to put myself in another person's shoes and feel their pain, I don't want to hurt them like that. Just like I wouldn't others to steal from me, I don't want to steal from others. Simple as that. I think most human beings are capable of compassion (just very few are not, like psychopaths) but through their ego or bad upbringing they close their eyes and justify their bad behavior. Religion has been created to subdue those people who are prone to cheating, but as we can see religion doesn't work.

What if you were more needy then the person you were stealing from then is it ok?

You see Arpa tries to hurt people by using foul language. Now what? Why shouldn't he continue doing it?

Why should people believe like you? What if one doesn't feel they are hurting others or don't care if they hurt others by stealing?

What if I were to rip people off and if they found out about it and get hurt then return their money.

The problem is it’s your opinion and not moral absolute.

 

Ashot

I'm not claiming Christian don't commit sin. We in the Armenian Church teach people to repent. We pray the der voghormia this doesn't mean we will not sin.

[Anoushik]

What if you were more needy then the person you were stealing from then is it ok?

You see Arpa tries to hurt people by using foul language. Now what? Why shouldn't he continue doing it?

Why should people believe like you? What if one doesn't feel they are hurting others or don't care if they hurt others by stealing?

What if I were to rip people off and if they found out about it and get hurt then return their money.

The problem is it’s your opinion and not moral absolute.

No, stealing is not ok. People will always be more needy and they'll always see themselves more needy of money than the rest.

 

You're right. My belief is not a moral absolute. That's why I said people created religion.

[Arpa]

What if you were more needy then the person you were stealing from then is it ok?

You see Arpa tries to hurt people by using foul language

Please come back when you learn that ETHHICITY has nothing to do with RELIGION, that they are not SYNOMIOUS.

Until then your argument is not worth even a rat's arse.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Arpa

[Yervant1]

Arad9 to be honest I'm having hard time in understanding what you are saying.

Are you making statements or asking questions? Everything you say is attached with an "If".

 

Arpa please stop the swearing and tackle the issue, there is no need for words that starts with F and ends With F or the furkish S****R by now every member knows about it.

[Ashot]

Arad, please for your own sake get back to the topic, you are way off... so tell me why are you a Protestant?