Rousas Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 This is in response to another poll concerning the death penalty. It is clear to me that this question needs to be asked. For is something as great a penalty as death, something that is for man to ordain, or is it in God's domain? This question would have been too specific, yet the answer is telling as to what standard each man lives by, hence I simply asked the greater question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 (edited) he he - guess how I answered...LOL (which God/gods BTW...and who is the authority to interpret? and don't just says - the Bible tells me so...it tells many [very different] to different people...and it is also wrong of you to assume that wisdom/morals etc cannot be found/derived elsewhere...) Edited September 4, 2003 by THOTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Rousas, we should live by God's "standards", but above all we should know God's "standards". I don't think you know, neither do I. So my point is don't teach people how to live because you simply don't possess such knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rousas Posted September 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Sasun,If we cannot know God's standards, then either God cannot make Himself clear or man cannot understand. If man cannot understand, then we cannot know God and Christ's words are meaningless to us. If God cannot make Himself clear to us, then He is an inept God. If either of these are the case, then there is no purpose for man to attempt at following God's standards, simply because it is not possible to understand them. The Bible is clear that all men know both God and His word (i.e. standard), because God has revealed it unto man, some simply chose to suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Also, if you don't know God's standard, how can YOU live by something of which you have no understanding of? I say to you, if you do not follow God's word, then you follow man's....man cannot have two masters. The question is extremely telling. Thoth,If you want me to provide a thorough defense of the Triune God and the authority of the Bible, I would be more than happy to do so in another posting. I would, also, recommend for you to read the works of the Christian apologist, Dr. Cornelius Van Til.The authority to interpret the Scriptures lies solely on God. Man has no authority to interpret anything that God has not revealed to man. God in His natural revelation and special revelation (the Bible), interprets His word to man; man is then a re-interpreter. Everytime that the would-be autonomous man attempts to claim the authority to interpret reality in terms of himself, he cannot help but break his own 'definition' of the 'law of contradiction.' Because God is alone autonomous, he is then the sole interpreter of reality. The proof for the existence of God (the only God...the God of the Christian scriptures) is in the impossibility of the contrary. All other religions and false faiths begin with the autonomy of man, and end with a self-contradicting philosophy. Again, when man attempts to interpret reality in terms of himself, he cannot help but contradict himself in anything and everything of which he says.I, also, never said that morals cannot be found elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Rousas - I just don't believe at all that anything you are saying is true. And no - I don't need any proofs..believe me I have friends and relatives who present this sort of thing to me all the time - and I have spent plenty of my time digesting etc. I have my own beliefs - or opinions - and one is that fundementally (sacred books or no) man has no clue about the nature of existance and all of that - nor are we likely to ever have the capacity to truly know/understand as it is beyond the capability of our limited perspective. But I do not think it worthwhile to conjecture beings and systems and what not to fill in these gaps - as they are again just conjectures based on our limited perspective - and thus are all inherently false. Of course the parables and other lessons in most all religions have their place - to illustrate/teach...some better then others etc...but all are man derived (and imperfect) - but thats OK as long as one (individual/group etc) isn't trying to force their particular set of beliefs on others and as long as they are not killing or harming others based on these beliefs or based on the fact that others believe differently. And oh BTW - there is no God. And I will conjecture that this is likely provable based on statistacal analysis alone (but no - I really don't want to go there...). And basically I believe that nearly everything we claim to know is inherently wrong (at some fundemental level) - but thats OK - approximations are ussualy good enough for most things...and we seem to get by...and, of course, no one can prove that any sort of afterlife, past life, alternative universe life or what have you has any real exsistance or bearing on how we live or lives in the (lets at least assume here) very real world of flesh, blood and substance that we find ourselves in. SO lets make the best of it here and now - and not just give false hope to the suffering etc - that they must accept their lot - in hope that when they die they are going to some better place and that there are some unseen benevolent beings that are looking out for them and such...its just a false hope at best (but OK - maybe some need this sort of thing - but please don't foster it on those of us who don't...)...sorry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Sasun,If we cannot know God's standards, then either God cannot make Himself clear or man cannot understand. If man cannot understand, then we cannot know God and Christ's words are meaningless to us. If God cannot make Himself clear to us, then He is an inept God. If either of these are the case, then there is no purpose for man to attempt at following God's standards, simply because it is not possible to understand them. The Bible is clear that all men know both God and His word (i.e. standard), because God has revealed it unto man, some simply chose to suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Also, if you don't know God's standard, how can YOU live by something of which you have no understanding of? I say to you, if you do not follow God's word, then you follow man's....man cannot have two masters. The question is extremely telling. Rousas, God is infinitely great and cannot be understood entirely. Of course, we all know something, or we think we know. Whatever it is is very little compared to infinity. God is not inept, it is we who are limited human beings. It is natural that we don't know much. However, I am not saying that it is impossible to know God. Ever heard of Yoga? Yoga means union with God. An accomplished yogi is a rare thing. Such yogi not only knows but also is the Truth. So, it is possible to know God. But something tells me that you don't know God well. And I am saying that I don't know either. It is not a matter of argument. But we both will know one day. Christ said that Kingdom of Heaven is inside us. Therefore only by looking for God inside us can we know Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 All other religions and false faiths begin with the autonomy of man, and end with a self-contradicting philosophy. Well, this is simply incorrect. How well do you know all other religions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rousas Posted September 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Well, this is simply incorrect. How well do you know all other religions.Fairly well, Sasun. If you would like examples of the internal contradictions of false religions from within the worldview of said religion, I would be glad to do so. The Scriptures have no internal contradiction when one lets Scripture interpret Scripture. All other philosophies and religions are based upon the autonomy of man, and are when exposed contradictory to this very presupposition. When looking from within the worldviews of all religions, one cannot help but see the very basic contradictions from the premises and presuppositions of the religions themselves. I do not speak of a contradiction on an experiential level, but on a presuppositional level, based upon the very presuppositions of which the religion is founded on. Also, God is knowable, yet not exhaustively. That is, man cannot know God as God knows Himself. Man can only know God as He reveals Himself to man. Thoth was very right in asking the question of authority. This was the very question of which the poll asks. Who has the authority to determine the reality of all things, God or man? Now he asked me, basically what man has the authority to determine who God is. His presupposition is clearly evident. Yet, Thoth when you say that you cannot have any clue as to what reality is, you have stated at least one thing of which is absolutely known, according to yourself, that is, that we cannot know what reality is. Do you know, or don't you? According to the Bible, if God exists, then all of reality is based upon Him and Him alone. This could only possibly be because God Himself had revealed it as such. This is the Biblical answer to the question with no internal contradiction. The attack is often that this is circular reasoning. Yet, all of man's reasoning is circular. In the end of all rationalization, one must choose an ultimate authority and then regiment their reasoning in terms of it: the Christian looks to God to make sense of things, while the non-Christian looks to himself. What Thoth did was reason all things in terms of himself. In determining, for himself, that reality is not knowable in any 'real' sense he has determined what reality is, namely that it is 'not knowable.' Thoth also said that 'there is no God,' yet Thoth said that man cannot truly know the nature of existence? Can you reconcile these two conflicting statements, Thoth? If you are unable to know the nature of existence, then (1) how are you even able to say that 'man cannot truly know the nature of existence' and (2) then how can you go on to claim that you know that there is no God? It is beyond me, as to how you can claim to not know the nature of reality, and then be so certain that there is no creator of reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 (edited) Thoth, you are starting to act like religious foundamentalists here. When you claim that it is provable that god does not exist, statistically. This is plain wrong, proof of that, is that the scientifics that most believe in such stuff, are mathematicians...(based on the poll of 1997). So if something like that could be proven statistically, the mathematicians would be those that would believe the less. What science has demonstrated is not the non-existance of a god... this is impossible... what it has demonstrated is that more and more we learn, more and more a god is useless to understand the Universe. There is as well major contradictions in your last answer, similar than those brough by religious biggots... you explain in the first paragraph how it is impossible for humans to understand everything, and on the other paragraph, you start it with "there is no God." How would that be anything different than those that claim there is one? I mean, from your first paragraph, you should have concluded that whatever or not there is a god is impossible to answer. Another thing, and something I finally concluded is that, humanity can not think of something that can not exit... if someone say there is a god, it is because as a human he/she interprate the Universe(that he isthe opbserver of and the same time, a part of it), the same way as someone that does not believe in a god. Lets make that as clear as possible. The first cell that appeared billions of years ago, with natural selection and environmental changes, has attached itself with others to form a pluricellular(an oirganism composed of more than one cell) organism... what has been formed respect the laws of our universe, it conform to it... Now, later and later... modifications gave birth to the existance of the brain, that has been complexified more and more... and humans appeared... those humans, exchanging with each others, started to try to discribe what they observed... and from it, it made them what they were... and societies have been formed... people exchanging with eachothers... Here is the prime point... how can humans say something that does not exist IF, the reason why they will think of that would be because of the way their brain reacts, its connections, and a brain that has been formed by laws of this Universe... I don't know if you get what I mean... what we are, is what nature has done of us, gave us the tools... and what our society has become is the result of the exchanges and connections between individuals... before those exchanges... there were individuals. What humans are in fact, is that they are "interpreters" they have been formed by nature... and than after being formed, their mind become what it is from what they observes and the connections they forms with others. Everything that we may think, will be the product of those... so nothing could be 100% wrong... it is just a question of an undeterministic reality. It is like trying to have the exact speed and position of a particule at the same time... it is impossible, like it is impossible to say that God exist, and in the same time saying that a god does not exist... if you say god exist, you reject a reality, like when you take the exact speed of a particule, you entirly reject its position, and ignoring the entire "positional" reality of this particule. So, what I mean, is that the existance of a god is undeterministic... everything is probability, and what we choose can not be wrong if it is mathematically possible, therefore rational. People just choose from all the infinit possibilities, what to consider as the truth. In conclusion, when you say, there is no God, you are as much mistaken as those that say there is one. To Sasun I hope you have not voted... because if you believe that we are part of this god in which you believe(BTW, I like your conception of such a god, it is newage )... tha would mean, that what our collecitivity would choose, would be some sort of gods stardards. Edited September 5, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 OK fine - let me restate then. All of the concepts of God/Gods/god/gods/goddesses/etc so on and so forth are just plain wrong. They are basically figments of mans immagination. My statement that there is no God (etc) is based on my principle that everything we know is (basically/fundementally)wrong (or more accuratly partial truth at best). I may (do) not know the ultimate nature of existance/our universe/its underlying truth or what have you - but neither do any of you - any better then me. I am not putting forth any answer - all I am saying is that you are wrong - that I don't believe you when you say you know the truth. Thus - my statement - that there is no god (et al) - is only stateing my belief in the negation of your so-called (unknowable) truths. I can propose inumerable hypothesis concerning the height weight hair color temperment and what not of some supreme being or creator - or group of such - or unknown alien progeninators...Pink Ponys or so on and so forth - and your versions have no more truth or really chance at all of being accurate as anything I could just make up on the spot. Got it now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Also, God is knowable, yet not exhaustively. That is, man cannot know God as God knows Himself. Man can only know God as He reveals Himself to man. This is what I was saying above. But the difference is you think that God reveals Himself only in the Bible, therefore you think that's the only way God can reveal. I disagree with this, God can reveal himself in any way that we can ever imagine. In other religions there are other ways by which God reveals Himself. Yet you call those religions false. I am not talking about some crazy minor sects and religions, I mean major religions. But yes, there are contradictions in other religions just like the ones in the Bible. Also, if you pray sincerely Divine Grace is such that God will reveal Himself in other ways that you may have never imagined, and that are not in the Bible or anywhere else. The Bible is a collection of separate books written over a long period of time, it is natural that we find contradictions. However, if I understand correctly, the books have a lot more in common than differences. Of course, it is always up to interpretation. You say scripture can interpret scripture, but ultimately it is we who interpret in our minds. You say men have no right to interpret, but your thoughts are interpetations of some men and you happen to be among them, or you have just adopted their view without ever questioning. I also disagree that men have no right to interpret. Interpreting is a way of understanding. We have every right to understand and interpret. Isn't Bible for men or not? If not then it is not a bible, it is a very useless book if we are not allowed to understand it. Accepting something one doesn't understand is a false and artificial faith. Now you will say that I put my words above God's words, but all I am doing is stating a different understanding which doesn't agree with your understanding (something that you and many others refer to as God's word). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 OK fine - let me restate then. All of the concepts of God/Gods/god/gods/goddesses/etc so on and so forth are just plain wrong. They are basically figments of mans immagination. My statement that there is no God (etc) is based on my principle that everything we know is (basically/fundementally)wrong (or more accuratly partial truth at best). I may (do) not know the ultimate nature of existance/our universe/its underlying truth or what have you - but neither do any of you - any better then me. I am not putting forth any answer - all I am saying is that you are wrong - that I don't believe you when you say you know the truth. Thus - my statement - that there is no god (et al) - is only stateing my belief in the negation of your so-called (unknowable) truths. I can propose inumerable hypothesis concerning the height weight hair color temperment and what not of some supreme being or creator - or group of such - or unknown alien progeninators...Pink Ponys or so on and so forth - and your versions have no more truth or really chance at all of being accurate as anything I could just make up on the spot. Got it now? Still! Thoth, if nothing could be really understood by humans, and everything could be just plain statistics... you would not have the right to even say the word "wrong" because wrong being the contrary to the truth, is a human conception, by supposing everything as being "wrong" you take off the value of what "wrong" is because on the cases that, what is less wrong than other things would be "right," if not, than "wrong" would not exist, this is not a belief, because like I said previously, the only foundamental truth(and I hope you won't call that a belief) that we know as PERFECT truth, is foundamental mathematic... and what is demonstrated by foundamental mathematic as being possible, is the only concievable ENTIRE truth we may have. So, what I bring, about the fact that in order that wrong exist, truth should exist could be demonstrated mathematically, because in order to place "things" in a line(one dimention), you need at the VERY LEAST 2 points, if you just place one, you just created a singularity, and in this cases wrong could just not exist, because wrong has 50% chances to be right, so you will come to the point I brought, wrong would be undeterministic. There is things that are just belief, but there is one foudanmental human knowledge that is not human belief but an absolut truth, it is foundamental mathematic. And this is provable, and this time statistically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Domino, I am not sure what exactly newage is. I believe I am not a newagist. Even that belief-o-metric doesn't show me as significantly newager. THOTH, I know you are atheist, and that is fine as far as I am concerned. You have every right not to believe anyone. But I am just curious, what kind of proof would satsfy you to believe that God exists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 It is interesting that when things go well hardly anybody thinks about God but when one gets an ailment like cancer or serious life problem such as losing loved one then we begin to think and NEEDING God in our lives. What gives... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 It is interesting that when things go well hardly anybody thinks about God but when one gets an ailment like cancer or serious life problem such as losing loved one then we begin to think and NEEDING God in our lives. What gives... one more thing...why is that when we entery a church, even for a happy event (wedding...), we behave as though someone died - all serious, heads down, low voice, ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 coz we're all sinners (this is a guess).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 It is interesting that when things go well hardly anybody thinks about God but when one gets an ailment like cancer or serious life problem such as losing loved one then we begin to think and NEEDING God in our lives. What gives...Ever seen an "adult"movie? They often have more references to God than the bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 LOL Sip, I hope the 'adult' movie wasnt supplied with that 'guide to dating' you have been memorising cover to cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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