DominO123 Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 (edited) I wondered about that, the reductionism is present in every part of modern science. The reductionists are those that tell us that humans are just biological, everything that makes us, our sentiments, our conscience everything is a product of our brain. I agree with that, but what I don't see, is how can that be reductionist? Why I don't see that, is because reductionist is to reduce humans to mair biological, chimistry reactions etc..., why would that be reducing us? I mean, I can very well see that as the opposit of reductionism. Imagine that what makes us is only the product of our brain, that would be great, I mean, we could be immortals, because if the conscience is the product of what happens in our brain, and the"I"and everything else that makes us " us" is the product of our brain, than we would be like softwares run in a quantum computer that is our brain, if that is the cases, than anywhere in our Universe, or the infinit other numbers of Universes, it takes this same exact "software"in order to make the "me," and I will even not be able to tell the difference, if scientists tell that is not possible, than they believe the existance of a kind of soul independent of matter, and it makes those reductionists, because if the "I" can not exist out of my body, from any kind of process, than the person that don't believe to that, believe to some sort of "soul"making my "I," those, it makes this person the reductionist. If conscience, MY conscience and my "I" is the product of those connections of my brain, and those Quantum states, it takes the same exact copy of those Quantum states to rebuild this me that will be the same me, and I will even not see the difference(beside seing the difference of having another body), we know that the physic of teleportation has demonstrated that you can not copy a particule without destroying the old one, and the copy become the old one, and they are the same... That means, that I can not make an identical copy of myself, without destroying me, and once I destroy myself and make a copy of, I won't remark the difference, because this copy will be the exact same me, I will even not notice the difference, as we are here, that is possibly happening. Now, imagine that a dog had an accident and has been killed, we destroyed the dog, it is for sure that in another universe there is a copy of thise dog with the same Quantum states, would the dog know he died? I mean, considering that there is infinit numbers of Universes, even if the chances that another Universe very similar to ours in which a dog being composed of particules of the same Quantum states are very slime, considering that there is infinit numbers of Universes, another dog with the same Quantum state will exist for sure, those making that a life after a death for that dog. What I mean, is that the "soul" as we know, is a product of our brain, it is a process, but that does not mean that that conception is a reductionist one, because if all that are a product of our brain and Quantum states and build conscience, considering the inflationist theory of the Universe that explain us that there is infinit numbers of Universes, it is for sure that once in a while in trillions of trillions of trillions of years, a nearly identical Universes as ours will exist, since time is a product of conscience, if we die, time dies with it, untill in trillions and trillions of years where another Universe very similar to ours would exist, and that in that Universe the possibility of us not dying from what we have died in this universe would exist as well, and we will not even see the difference if that theory is right. Maybe one hour before I died, but I don't see the difference because trillions of years after, another me existed that did not die of the same thing, and that voila it is me, and since time exist only when you are conscient, the trillions of years is reduced to a very slight fraction of second. That means, immortality does not exist, I offer you more than your god, I offer eternity. Edited July 16, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 BTW: Sasun, this time I want your answer, I think I made an effort to be understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 (edited) OK Domino, since you want an answer and since you so generously offered me eternity, I promise I will give you an answer ... let's say sometime in the next 500 years To tell you the truth, every time you post a similar message, reading and understanding it goes to the bottom of my priorities because when I start to read, I realize the time needed to understand your thoughts and the benefit of understanding are very far from each other If I ask you to clarify, you post a new confusing message. So, Fadioghlu, just hang on there, I may want to waste my time and read your recent invention Edited July 16, 2003 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 OK Domino, since you want an answer and since you so generously offered me eternity, I promise I will give you an answer ... let's say sometime in the next 500 years To tell you the truth, every time you post a similar message, reading and understanding it goes to the bottom of my priorities because when I start to read, I realize the time needed to understand your thoughts and the benefit of understanding are very far from each other If I ask you to clarify, you post a new confusing message. So, Fadioghlu, just hang on there, I may want to waste my time and read your recent invention But ! But ! But ! This one, I was sure was easy to be understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 I am firmly of the belief that we as living beings are dependent upon our biochemical proceszses for life and that we can have no existance beyond them (unless some way were to be found to replicate the functions)...even with this - in a different body we are a different person - (just as we are from day to day as our bodies change over time and our experiences are integrated...) (can never step in the same river twice sort of thing)...and i don'r belive it is possible to replicate someone - certainly not by cloning...anyone who thinks this just does not understand what it is to be a person/a living being... What was it that you were saying Domino? LOL Really Domino - you remind me of....me...about 20+ years ago...except (you are) smarter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 I am firmly of the belief that we as living beings are dependent upon our biochemical proceszses for life and that we can have no existance beyond them (unless some way were to be found to replicate the functions)...even with this - in a different body we are a different person - (just as we are from day to day as our bodies change over time and our experiences are integrated...) (can never step in the same river twice sort of thing)...and i don'r belive it is possible to replicate someone - certainly not by cloning...anyone who thinks this just does not understand what it is to be a person/a living being... What was it that you were saying Domino? LOL Really Domino - you remind me of....me...about 20+ years ago...except (you are) smarter... Thoth, being dependent of the body open the door of eternity, because wat will make us as "us" would be all those connections in our brain, but my discussion did not only concern that, but the Universe. The newest theory of the Universe and the one that wil be the one of the next century, is the Inflationist one, that theory tells us that the Universe started from an unified point, from nothing. This inflationist theory as well extrapolate that there is probably infinit numbers of Universes, that being the cases, an exact replicate of our universes is very very rare, considering that there is one on trillions of trillions of trillions... of chances that it could happen, but considering that infinit numbers of Universes existed, and infinit numbers will exist, from a time range which the domain is from minus infinit and plus infinit, it is absolutly sure that an exact replicate of our universes will exist or has already existed... more, is that there is as well Universes very closes to this one, where for exemple few dfferent things happened, a Univereses that by chance I have lived 120 years etc... now this me on that other Universe would have a brain that the particules are of the same Quantum states as mine, that means, it is the true me... but that can not happen exactlly as I type, because another me at the same time can not exist because two particules can nopt have the same quantum state forming molecules formings cels, forming etc... and finally my brain. But before my birth or after my death, that is a possibility. Imagine that in another Universe after trillions and trillions of years from now( I include time here just in order that you understand, because without the "I"and no conscience, time can not exist), there could be a me that havn't died of what for example I would maybe die... this me will have the same "I" and be just a little different from me, it is very possible that I will be transfered in that Universe without even realising that I have died, and those trillions of years would be a non issue, because without my "I" time for me does not exist. Now, imagine that you would have died there is trillions of years from now in another Universe that was near identitical to those one, I don't know how to explain that... so I will invent a scenario. Imagine yesterday at 2 PM you have died from a car crash, trillions of years later, at 2 PM on another Universe nearly identical to this one there is a "you"that did not die from that car accident, this you now is presently here on this other Universe reading me. This "you" will serve for other yous of the past(again I say past in order that you understand, because past does not exist), and will be trasnfered in this you, and all thoses yous presently in your brain are the same you... the you is in every places on those interconnections of possible yous that born, die, live etc... So what I mean, is that there is for sure a possibility of life after death without a soul, even more possible than for one that would believe that the soul is independent of the body, because if there is nothing magical in our existance, considering all those univereses starting from quantum bubbles( Inflationist theory), it is absolutly sure that we will exist, and there is other "yous"and "mes" that will live longer and longer and longer... we record who dies in our Universe, those that died don't record their own deaths, but the deaths of others, maybe in another Universe I have died and those there recorded my deaths. I know, it is very difficult to explain what I mean, but this is the only logical explaination of conscience I see, because if we are some sort of software, any other universe could run that software, and the diversity of those Universes will just creat them, and a kind of natural selection of Univereses will build them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 (edited) Domino, I just remembered that you are supposed to be roasted until 2007 (sounds familiar ?) I have the impression that every time you visit the toilet you come up with a new discovery. No wonder why you sometimes refer to yourself as a universe Anyway, first you make an assumption that there could be infinite number of universes. We don't know if there is at least one other universe besides ours. I would guess that there isn't. What is the point of having more than one universe? But at any rate, this is just an assumption. Second, assuming that there are indeed multiple universes, how do you explain that somebody's identity could be integrally spread over all these infinite number of universes over a really long time period, perhaps you mean over eternity. How does the connection work? Doesn't it seem to you that a more probable version is that the person lives in one universe, rather than in many? Third, suppose somebody died on this universe. Then you arbitrarily say that after a trillion years, there is this somebody on another universe who doesn't die. And he thinks that he does't die. Now, your model allows me to arbitrarily assume that there is yet another universe where the same person lives and doesn't die, but let's say something happens, for example his ass gets kicked. So what happened? Did the person die or his ass got kicked? You see, it doesn't work... Domino, we have a contradiction, your model sucks. Better luck at your next visit to the toilet Edited July 16, 2003 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 (edited) Domino, I just remembered that you are supposed to be roasted until 2007 (sounds familiar ?) I have the impression that every time you visit the toilet you come up with a new discovery. No wonder why you sometimes refer to yourself as a universe Anyway, first you make an assumption that there could be infinite number of universes. We don't know if there is at least one other universe besides ours. I would guess that there isn't. What is the point of having more than one universe? But at any rate, this is just an assumption. Second, assuming that there are indeed multiple universes, how do you explain that somebody's identity could be integrally spread over all these infinite number of universes over a really long time period, perhaps you mean over eternity. How does the connection work? Doesn't it seem to you that a more probable version is that the person lives in one universe, rather than in many? Third, suppose somebody died on this universe. Then you arbitrarily say that after a trillion years, there is this somebody on another universe who doesn't die. And he thinks that he does't die. Now, your model allows me to arbitrarily assume that there is yet another universe where the same person lives and doesn't die, but let's say something happens, for example his ass gets kicked. So what happened? Did the person die or his ass got kicked? You see, it doesn't work... Domino, we have a contradiction, your model sucks. Better luck at your next visit to the toilet Actually, it's the best model I came with. Your points don't reject my Universe. BTW, why I talk about the Domino, I hope you understand that I am comparing it with the Matrix, this is why I say the Domino. Now comming to the multiple Universes. The Inflationist theory supposes that there is many and many Univereses creating from nothing, the theory of Infinit Universe comes from the fact that there is no limit for nothingless, it is undeterminated, just like infinit, so if in fact Univereses are created from Quantum bubbles, there should be infinit numbers of Universes. This is very logical, and it is the most credible new theories of Universes, because if thise Univereses started from that Quantum bubble, than it is fore sure that many others will exist, I hope you don't reject my theory because you believe in God and since you believe God has created the Universe, it is the only one? We don't need a soul, neither do we need a God to supposes that we can survive, Quantum Mechanic has all those for us. Just supposes that no God created the Universe, I know you don't agree, but just supposes, and read now what I am about to write. If no god has created this Universe, and that it started from a Quantum bubble, which is very logical since it tries to explain how something can come out of nothing, that would mean that a Universe is nothing extraordinary, they just are created from a Vaccum, and since this period of sequence is underterminated, ranging from minus infinit to plus infinit, there is infinit numbers of Univereses just being created and dying, you can't see that otherwise if you take the Inflationist theory of the Multiple Universe, tell to any modern astrophysicist and this is the belief they have. This does not come from me, it is not something I found from the toilette. What I have done, was just including in that "consciencenous"the "self" the "I"and what makes this "I"as an "I" it is from there that I came to the conclusion that I came to. If in fact there is Infinit numbers of Universes, that would mean that every possible Universes that you could just think of would exist, those statistical possibilities in Quantum mechanic could be analogued to the statistical possibilities of multiple of Univereses. So starting from that point, it is almost certain that I have existed in many of those Univereses. So, all the probabilities exist, for example, you punch me, kill me etc... all those probabilities have already happened in other Univereses, if for example I die and go on the other where I am kicked and will be killed later, it is just another sequence of event, and this "dying"I won't record it, so your critic does not make sense because you suppose that I would record the thing I do not record. What I mean is that, there is all those Universes existing, and it is our collective belief that makes us live in a Universe and not another, you chose which one by your own existance, if you believe in God, in your proper Universe God exist, because you decide to live in an Universe that it exist, of course you may believe or not, that may be a process of the brain, but that does not change the fact that this continuity of your existance will still passes from a Universe to the other. As for Identity, I don't believe I said Identity, we just changes become another "thing", evoluate etc.... we change from Univereses to another... for eternity... it is like the Quantum bubble starting from a point and expending and expending and expending(giving that illusion because Conscience creat time). The continuity, this is all about continuity, like teleportation, where you destroy the orginal to make a copy off, this multiple Univereses does the same thing. Ah and, I say nothing arbitrary, if there is infinit numbers of Univereses, and there is no conditions to exclude the same possibility, in order that the same does not happen again(for example once a form of Universe exist, it will not exist anymore, this is wrong, because just the fact that it existed, it shows it is possible to exist thus, it will exist, supposing that for eternity Univereses will be created), there must be an exclusion, there is none, because the only reason it exist, it shows the existance of such a Universe should not be excluded. ANd, I don't see your 2 last points proves that such a theory of conscience does not make sense. I hope it is not because it kicks Gods out of his sphere, the reason of his existance... But it does not, because there is Univereses that would admit a God, and you are living in it. Edited July 16, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 (edited) Oh, I just realised I haven't answered about the connection thing... The conscience of one change Universes, because in another there may just be that a brain, or a connection similar to those one may be created, this is how it transfer, there is no medium of transfer, it does not need one. Edited July 17, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 (edited) OK Domino, the defense of your theory was fair enough. Keep in mind that it gives me pleasure to roast you and I will not miss an opportunity to do so When you put up a message that is hard to understand now thats' a good opportunity Man you never get tired. OK, about the theory. It is good that you are now saying "...because if thise Univereses started from that Quantum bubble, than it is fore sure that many others will exist...". I would say that is a big if. From what I understand, statistically the Inflationist theory is a solid possibility but not a proven fact. We have absolutely no indication that there are other universes. Still, this theory remains a valid theory I will admit that. If there could be one quantum bubble, why couldn't there be more than one? That is a valid question. But I don't clearly understand what exactly a quantum bubble means. I just assume that is the link betwen nothing and a thing. About God vs universe. My understanding - God cannot be kicked out of the universe because the universe itself is God. Quantum mechanics, and all other laws are God. Everything that there was/is/will ever be is God. This is what I believe. Since there is only one God, there cannot be more than one universe. However, perhaps God is also the collectivity of all these universes. There is a lot more to talk about this subject, but maybe later. P.S. Domino aka Domino aka McFarti posts science/discovery messages too frequently. Hence I was inspired to compare it to going to the toilet. But that must be some good toilet Eh , is there any limit to being silly ? Edited July 17, 2003 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Sasun, of course there is an "if" There is strong evidences, but it can't really be proved, so I have to say "if" This Universe I present is a possibility. As for Inflationism, the String theory suggest highly many Universes. Now, about everything being God, I already told you that I like that idea, but a God such as that, will neither be a good or bad god, it will be a neutral god... and if the Universe is God, than every universes will be gods, and all the connection between them will be a SuperGod... I as well believe that those infinit Univereses that are interconnected with each others, there is infinit numbers of them, and those connections of Infinit numbers of them, for other infinit numbers etc... etc... etc... and that for Infinit... So, here we come, Imagine that Universe-A, contain infinit numbers of Universes, so as Universe B, so as Universe C etc... untill Universe n(n has as limit infinit), now the Grouping of those multiple Universes(Universe A etc...) Form a Gian Multiple Universe, MultiUniverse A etc... and there is infinit of them as well, those ones grouped each others will form other groups other groups other groups... for Infinit etc... It's like a fractal Multiple Universe system, where the same patern is respected, again and again and again... so If you have to take all those Universes and tell that all this everything is God, you are telling me that God is hell of a big thing... well, it makes sense afterall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Sasun, of course there is an "if" There is strong evidences, but it can't really be proved, so I have to say "if" This Universe I present is a possibility. As for Inflationism, the String theory suggest highly many Universes. Now, about everything being God, I already told you that I like that idea, but a God such as that, will neither be a good or bad god, it will be a neutral god... and if the Universe is God, than every universes will be gods, and all the connection between them will be a SuperGod... I as well believe that those infinit Univereses that are interconnected with each others, there is infinit numbers of them, and those connections of Infinit numbers of them, for other infinit numbers etc... etc... etc... and that for Infinit... So, here we come, Imagine that Universe-A, contain infinit numbers of Universes, so as Universe B, so as Universe C etc... untill Universe n(n has as limit infinit), now the Grouping of those multiple Universes(Universe A etc...) Form a Gian Multiple Universe, MultiUniverse A etc... and there is infinit of them as well, those ones grouped each others will form other groups other groups other groups... for Infinit etc... It's like a fractal Multiple Universe system, where the same patern is respected, again and again and again... so If you have to take all those Universes and tell that all this everything is God, you are telling me that God is hell of a big thing... well, it makes sense afterall. Now explain me how there can be evidence but it can't be really proven. ??? The idea of God that I was mentioning is not something neutral or the name of universe, it is something much more. But I will not talk about it (not that I know all of it) because you seem to have a problem with God That is weird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 (edited) Seriously, Domino, God is a very difficult thing to understand, and I know very-very little. But my little knowledge tells me that God is a good thing certainly and that nothing of value can be known without knowing God. The popular disbelief or dislike is based on gross misunderstandings and dogmatization of God. But if one really wants to know there are many ways.If you want to understand the universe, the easiest thing is to "ask" it from its creator In your case, a quantum bubble was the origin of the universe(s). So you should ask the bubble. But who created the quantum bubble? Edited July 17, 2003 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Seriously, Domino, God is a very difficult thing to understand, and I know very-very little. But my little knowledge tells me that God is a good thing certainly and that nothing of value can be known without knowing God. The popular disbelief or dislike is based on gross misunderstandings and dogmatization of God. But if one really wants to know there are many ways.If you want to understand the universe, the easiest thing is to "ask" it from its creator In your case, a quantum bubble was the origin of the universe(s). So you should ask the bubble. But who created the quantum bubble? The Quantum bubble has been created from nothingless... thats what Inflationist theories tell us, they jusp pop-up from nothing. As for God... You know, your knowledge your belief, your ideas, all modify your brain circuitry, if God is everything, and all those are connected with each others, than for God to change something, has to think, just like our thinkings modify our brain connections... That could be an alternative, a kind of Big Brain, and everything that it thinks gives as results different connections. Lets see how I will put that pieces of puzzle. Ah and, I do have a problem with God, that thing called god is so unjust, if it hand out his powers to me, I will make of the world such a better place to live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 You know, your knowledge your belief, your ideas, all modify your brain circuitry, if God is everything, and all those are connected with each others, than for God to change something, has to think, just like our thinkings modify our brain connections... That could be an alternative, a kind of Big Brain, and everything that it thinks gives as results different connections. Lets see how I will put that pieces of puzzle. I am losing you again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 I admit, that was my fault, I have not explained very well what I meant. I think you will like this idea more than the others. Neuron connections and brain activities are modified by our mind, for example, you read what I write, you think about it, and you record it, it may modify what you think, and as a result, other connections in your brain are destroyed and newer ones are created. Thus, what you think modify your brain. Now, imagine that all those multiple Universes with each others creats a big jumbo brain, that is the interconnection of everything that existed, exist and will exist. Now, this jumbo brain, if it thinks something, it will modify the Universes, will modify particules etc... so if thise Jumbo brain wants to creat something, it has just to think of it, this thing will be created in its mind, and will change the connections and interconnections between those Universes, by analogy to the neurons in ones brain. Its like, we think of something, this thing is in your head, because of thise thinking your brain has been modified, because you recorded that thing that you were thinking, the same could apply to this jumbo-brain, and depending of what it thinks, new Univereses will pup-op dependent of the thinking, and others will die like dying neurons. That sounds to be to much science fiction, and believe me I am on nothing while I write that. So, how do you like that idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 That is not a bad idea. I was also thinking its a science fiction. But are you sure that is what happens when we think (neurons making and breaking connections)? I think you are addicted to the brain Most of your theories include brain. BTW, what happened to your avatar ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 (edited) The brain has always facinated me, I am sure that the clue is in the brain, since it works on the way nature has build it, if there is some misterious thing, it is by studying the brain that one day we will find it. As what happens when we think, yes, the brain activities always modify constantly the connections, not only the brain but the body, the mind has control over the body, the mind is a process of the brain, and this process has control over the thing that creats it, this is very facinating, this is why I believe that a soul independent to the brain does not need to exist in order to be immortals or eternals. Once this process can be reproduced, you exist. As the Avatar, the avatar is hosted from the account that I have as sig. the server is down, they have some technical difficulties... Wonder if it has to do with few Turkish hackers that have found easier to hack the entire server than hacking my acount. Edited July 18, 2003 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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