hyecory Posted November 3, 2001 Report Share Posted November 3, 2001 its TURKISH COFEE, and who gives a damn! just like horny said: argueing over it is like argueing over franch fries. or argueing with armenians over dolma, cause we invented dolma damn it! HAAAAAAAA! YES THE GREAT DOLMA! WHERE WOULD THIS WORLD BE WITHOUT DOLMA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 3, 2001 Report Share Posted November 3, 2001 I agree... And the olive-leaf one is the High King. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted November 3, 2001 Report Share Posted November 3, 2001 ancient or new, Armenian or Greek or Anatolian or Aborigenian, it is still the KING of all food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 3, 2001 Report Share Posted November 3, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose:Just wondering... Does "dolma" mean anything in Armenian ....?No. It doesn't. Any Greek will tell you that it is a genuine Greek food, and will give you the translation for the word from Greek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 3, 2001 Report Share Posted November 3, 2001 quote:Originally posted by MJ:No. It doesn't. Any Greek will tell you that it is a genuine Greek food, and will give you the translation for the word from Greek.Yeah, it is called "dolmadakia" but has no meaning - from a Greek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 4, 2001 Report Share Posted November 4, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose:Yeah, it is called "dolmadakia" but has no meaning - from a Greek.Actually, they have given me translation of it years ago. But I have forgotten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edward demian Posted November 4, 2001 Report Share Posted November 4, 2001 The Armenians in Eastern Europe call the Dolma, Sarma.Does anyone have an idea why? Olive leaf dolma? I'm missing something here. The leaves of the olive tree are too thin to wrap anything in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilafhead Posted November 5, 2001 Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 Sarma is the grape leave dolma that is served as part of mezza. Also known as yalanchi. For us, dolma is made with meat, tomato sauce, rice and parsley and wrapped in cabbage (or stuffed into a bell pepper, tomato, etc). It's served hot as a main course. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 5, 2001 Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 quote:Originally posted by edward demian:Olive leaf dolma? I'm missing something here. The leaves of the olive tree are too thin to wrap anything in.Shoot - I meant to say "grape leaves" - I was too tired Friday and Saturday. Thanks for pointing it out. I seem to remember not being sure about something I was writing a while ago - this must have been it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 5, 2001 Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Aghmug:Sarma is the grape leave dolma that is served as part of mezza. Also known as yalanchi.For us, dolma is made with meat, tomato sauce, rice and parsley and wrapped in cabbage (or stuffed into a bell pepper, tomato, etc). It's served hot as a main course.MikeWell - I think of all of them as dolma, served hot or cold (drenched in olive [<-- this is where the olive is, alright ] oil).Take, for instance, the ones we have with those bell peppers - they have the rice and a few herbs in them (like dill-weed)... If as a hot meal, there is minced meat added (and often times the place where the pepper is cored is capped with sliced tomato). If as cold, then there is not the meat - just the olive oil.I've had the eggplant variety of dolma hot - but never cold. (Have never tried.)At home (don't know about other Turkish families - and reading cook-books is not a habit of mine), "sarma" (fm "wrapping") is used mostly for the olive-oiled cabbage stuff.With the grape leaf (always called "dolma" if not "yaprak sarması" at home), we have it both ways, too - but I always prefer the olive-oiled stuff and not the hot one filled with minced meat that, in my opinion, doesn't really go well.I've never had the tomato variety... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted November 5, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 quote:Originally posted by MJ:No. It doesn't. Any Greek will tell you that it is a genuine Greek food, and will give you the translation for the word from Greek.Aha! Not me! Just because it has a greek name, greeks could have got the food from indo china for all we know, and have given it a different name. I don't really think we have much way of knowing where middle eastern-foods, such as dolmatha, houmous, pitta bread, kebab, or even coffee is originally from. So I just think it's pretty silly arguing about it, or discussing it really. On a totally different topic for a second; did you know money was invented in eastern Turkey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted November 5, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose:Shoot - I meant to say "grape leaves" - I was too tired Friday and Saturday. My, doesn't that "too tired" on Fridays and Sturdays" sound familiar to me! Well, this is my first night in ABSOOLUTLEY AGES where I'm not too tired/busy/going out. I'm not due in work today !!!yeeeeesss! Plus we got loads of time off college to "study" privatley. That is never a bad thing prob'll start up again soon. especially on Sunday and Saturday mornings when I have to be in for seven o clock to prepare evrything but I'm enjoying a little time off in order to piss about on the net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 5, 2001 Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 Lemme see if I remember correctly - the Lydians? (Hi!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted November 5, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 Sorry-what does "Lydians" mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted November 5, 2001 Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 Kazza, The Lydians were a people of Anatolia. I will research the exact location of their nation and post it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted November 5, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 quote:Originally posted by khodja:Kazza,The Lydians were a people of Anatolia. I will research the exact location of their nation and post it.OK, that would B nice of you. Forgive me if this is a silly question, but are they Turkic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted November 5, 2001 Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 Kazza, At it's greatest extent Lydia stretched from the Aegean Coast to Central Anatolia. These people were not Turkic. They were even pre-Greek. But as I have stated manu times present day Turks are partially descended from these people. They assumed Greek culture and later assimilated with the Turks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 5, 2001 Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 Too long ago - the first money - to have anything to do with Turks, who appeared in Anatolia in the beginning of the past millenium! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 kazza, while khodja does the research on the lydians, here is some brief info on them: the lydians were an anatolian people who were linguistically related to the earlier hittites and luvians (like the spanish and the italians are). they were there during most of antiquity probably all the way to the birth of christ and slightly beyond. they lived at a place called "lydia" (aptly enough) which was along the southern aegean shore. they have distinctive architecture, very different from hellenic, and the later hellenes did borrow a few things from them. money (or rather, coinage) was invented in that part of the world (the chinese also used bronze implements as money, but my memory fails me when it comes to dates) by the lydians, and then quickly spread to the rest of the mediterranean basin and beyond. the time was around 7th century bc. and the coins were made of electron (an alloy of gold and silver) and were called "stater" again if my memory doesn't fail me. i am sure khodja can post more (and i would appreciate to know whether the name of the coinage really was stater, i need to know), but meanwhile this will give you capsule info on them. by the way, the NAMES of dolma, sarma and yalancı are all purely turkic dolma means filling, sarma means wrapping and yalancı means liar, or fake. of course the actual food itself has little to do with central asia since most of the ingredients are middle eastern in character. but the central asians do have the concept of filled stuff, because it is one way to preserve and transport otherwise perishable and difficult to handle foodstuffs. as for kebab, again the NAME is arabic from kabba but since it is basically a piece of meat on a skewer and must have been around since the neanderthals you probably cannot credit the arabs with the invention of it, unless they are willing to consider themselves apemen. turkish coffee is called turkish coffee because that specific way of preparing it was invented in ottoman turkey. the plant itself is either of arab or ethiopian origin (i mean the discovery). arabs did use coffee, but those days mixing it with butter and turning it into something that looked like marmite (but tasted less bad) was more common than drinking it the way we do now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurguplu Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 kazza, re the lydians: no, they had nothing to do with the turks. turks were still at the foothills of the altai mountains then (but classical greek and later roman historians and geographers did refer to tribes and nations further west that we know today were turkic-speaking. the lydians spoke lydian, a close relative of hittite and luvian (it is descended from one or the other, i cannot remember which one now). this group of languages is known as the anatolian subgroup of indo-european languages (to which greek, armenian and english also belong). lydian or its ancestor hittite-luvian and its close cousin lycian were originally spoken over a much wider area which included greece, and many place names in greece and turkey derive from these languages: as a rule of thumb, all names that have -ssos or -nthos in greek are originally from these languages (like knossos, xanthos etc.) it is also becoming increasingly clear that the trojans of homer were luvian or lycian-speakers, as opposed to the achaeans, who spoke greek. hope this has helped. cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted November 7, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 quote: while khodja does the research on the lydians, here is some brief info on them: quote: the lydians were an anatolian people who were linguistically related to the earlier hittites and luvians (like the spanish and the italians are). they were there during most of antiquity probably all the way to the birth of christ and slightly beyond. quote: they lived at a place called "lydia" (aptly enough) which was along the southern aegean shore. Hello Agrupulu. Thanks for the reply and the info! Yes, I did hear of the "Lydians" breifly a few times. But I don't know very much about them. I'd really appreciate if you COULD postsome info/or point me towards some titles or websites. And we can also wait for Khodja to post the info too. It's always best to get the info from more than one veiwpoint, isn't it? quote: they have distinctive architecture, very different from hellenic, and the later hellenes did borrow a few things from them. OK. then If we COULD see the examples of architecture (mabye I can surf and find some? but in previous experience I know how hard it is to find ANY pictures of artefacts online!!) the we can compare and see who copied what from where! I personally think arguements like "we invented this" or "they invented that", without proper backup, s pretty much like a chicken and the egg story. Often it's interesting tho. quote: money (or rather, coinage) was invented in that part of the world (the chinese also used bronze implements as money, but my memory fails me when it comes to dates) by the lydians, and then quickly spread to the rest of the mediterranean basin and beyond. the time was around 7th century bc. and the coins were made of electron (an alloy of gold and silver) and were called "stater" again if my memory doesn't fail me. Yes, I remeber finding out that money was invented in Eastern Turkey in the ancient times! But the coinage you are reffering to, is that linked? That coinage could have just been used for ornamental purpose, like they did and do in athens. But you might be right, because the idea of buying and selling, the first businesses followed shortly after , spread across the mediteranean, then the world. I thought it was Egypt but it was Turkey. quote: i am sure khodja can post more (and i would appreciate to know whether the name of the coinage really was stater, i need to know), but meanwhile this will give you capsule info on them. quote: by the way, the NAMES of dolma, sarma and yalanci are all purely turkic dolma means filling, sarma means wrapping and yalanci means liar, or fake. of course the actual food itself has little to do with central asia since most of the ingredients are middle eastern in character. but the central asians do have the concept of filled stuff, because it is one way to preserve and transport otherwise perishable and difficult to handle foodstuffs. Again, it's quite possible that this type of food had asian influences, if you think about the oriental style of stuffing food,like spring rolls, or even indian samosas(and the mexican style of spices and stuffing food was taken from the asiatic-roots!) although the style is middle eastern, wherever that is from or whatever that means. Also, Meditereaneans have darkened up a lot since the ancient times (IMO, the jews have lightened up, because of exodus into european countries since 0 BC.Hm. I must say, the one good thing about western world living is the acessability to all different styles of food around the world! quote: as for kebab, again the NAME is arabic from kabba but since it is basically a piece of meat on a skewer and must have been around since the neanderthals you probably cannot credit the arabs with the invention of it, unless they are willing to consider themselves apemen. Or you can say, we can all consider ourselves apemen, because the neanderthals came up with the idea of eating meat! But the arabs must hav come up with the idea of meants on sticks but making it culinary and presentable. There are a lot to thank the ancient arabs for! quote: turkish coffee is called turkish coffee because that specific way of preparing it was invented in ottoman turkey. the plant itself is either of arab or ethiopian origin (i mean the discovery). arabs did use coffee, but those days mixing it with butter and turning it into something that looked like marmite (but tasted less bad) was more common than drinking it the way we do now.You must imagine how bad food must have tasted in them days, if you compare it to todays standards. They musthave had to use horrible ingredients, to preserve or emisfluise things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThornyRose Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Kazza:You must imagine how bad food must have tasted in them days, if you compare it to todays standards. They musthave had to use horrible ingredients, to preserve or emisfluise things.Depends...On one hand, they might have tasted worse with what they had to do to preserve the stuff (I go easy on salt, and salted stuff is just a no-no for me). Tasted worse in terms of what we are used to today.On the other hand, we are eating tasteless stuff today, especially vegetables and fruit (and also meat and grains - hey, what's left??)... So, older and/or ancient stuff might have been TASTIER, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazza Posted November 7, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose:Depends...On one hand, they might have tasted worse with what they had to do to preserve the stuff (I go easy on salt, and salted stuff is just a no-no for me). Tasted worse in terms of what we are used to today.On the other hand, we are eating tasteless stuff today, especially vegetables and fruit (and also meat and grains - hey, what's left??)... So, older and/or ancient stuff might have been TASTIER, too. Actually, just after I posted, I thought of what you were about to say, then I thought "Let them all comment then I'll say it" I was just thinking imagine if the ancients came to the western world and tasted our food now. Not only might they think it's horrible too, but they probably would be able to notice what is heavily artificial and what isn't because they'd be used to natural taste. Buscuits and cakes that are advertised as low fat have about 7 spoons of sugar to each treat. As a nation, British consume up to 200 kilos of sugar each person on average,and 100 years ago it ws only 2 kg. And these aare refind sugars, found in processed foods, like Mac Donalds and shit. I have to watch out for "e"-numbers, as they make me hyper. As for fruit, I can't eat what's in the supermarkets because no matter how much I wash and scrub the apples with jif, the filmy substance of fertiliser is there. Plus it came out thatorganic fruit is sprayed with the same amount of fertilisers, but only diferent kinds, to keep the fruit small and shrivelled to market it as "organic". I like eating my fruit form the Greek, Turkish and Iranian green grocers around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Harut:ancient or new, Armenian or Greek or Anatolian or Aborigenian, it is still the KING of all food. I must be the King of all cooks because for sure I make the best Dolma. Even though I do not eat it anymore because I was a bonehead and became a vegetarian 8-9 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilafhead Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Azat:Even though I do not eat it anymore because I was a bonehead and became a vegetarian 8-9 years ago. An Armenian vegetarian? Wouldn't you have an easier life being a gay sev? Why did you become a vegetarian: health or moral reasons? I actually think if you do it right, it's the way to go. Maybe someday I'll put my money where my mouth is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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