hasmiek Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 I guess that was about why is wat bothered by his opinion, he don't mind if he and his future wife live like that. That's their lives. I just don't like the way Artur disagrees with our western lifestyles, and seems to look down on them. And I don't think that is a very_christian_ thing to do. It sounds like you have a great family, it's nice to know that there are armenians like you somewhere... that i can learn from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hasmiek:I guess that was about why is wat bothered by his opinion, he don't mind if he and his future wife live like that. That's their lives. I just don't like the way Artur disagrees with our western lifestyles, and seems to look down on them. And I don't think that is a very_christian_ thing to do. The crux of it all really. And it seems that (some) Christians do take this approach. I don't ever wish to be disrespectful of ones religion and would never claim to be able to prove anyone's religion false - but I sometimes get defensive (mostly with Christians) because in their zeal they (I think sometimes blindly) denigrate anyone who beleives differently then themselves. I am so very often told I am going to hell etc or that I am not loved by God or will be punished etc etc - because I do not beleive as they do - I certainly find this insulting (even if I personally beleive the "threats" to be empty) and its certainly disrespectful (IMO). As i balance I should also add that I have a great many Christian friends who (while often overzealous IMO) are overwhelmingly positive and tell me how they pray for me (such as when i have been ill) and such (and how can I complain about that - eh? - I thinkk its very nice for them to think of me that way and shows love etc - a very proper Christian value - IMO) and who also show respect to my beliefs (even if we might sometimes argue specifics at times.And BTW (forgot where/which thread this came up but I have read the entire Old Testment [that some consider to be "The Bible" - as well as much of the New [enough to get the jist of the story I think]), I have also read a number of other primary (non-Christian) religious texts (in whole and part) - so I am not entirely uniformed. In fact, while in High School I was (for a time) a memer of the Young Life movement and nearly became born again - but I realised that it was not in my heart - just as now - and that I would hypocritical to claim to be a Christian if I did not beleive (and certainly not if only motivated by fear [of Hell etc]) quote:Originally posted by hasmiek:It sounds like you have a great family, it's nice to know that there are armenians like you somewhere... that i can learn from. Why thank you - we are very happy & content. I wish for you similar or better. Life is a wonderful thing - so full of surprises and oppurtunities for joy. there is certainly tragedy and sadness as well however. I just finished speaking with a very good friend of mine whose wife lost her baby last night - she was several moinths pregnant - and this was not the first for them. We are all very saddened by this - as we are when any friend or family dies or has serious problems - but these things too are part of life and our lives. They, like everything, happen - sometimes seeming for no reason - and certainly not based on whether one is of a certain religion or not etc. In the end it is the strenth of our character and the presence of good friends and family that matter in how we persevere and prosper again - as with anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 arturI hope i am wrong with this feeling I have that you are disrespecting the people who choose in a different way than you do. I feel like i'm the opposit of you, with as the start that i'm a girl.I respect your choises that you want to live so traditional, if your wife agrees with it. But eventhough I have done things you wouldn't dream of doing, I, and others like me are no less people, and no less armenians that you and anyone else who follows the old tradional lifestyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 Oh my God... apart from ganging up on me, now i am accused of being a muslim. On what grounds ???????To the one who said it: go and learn about Armenia and Armenians as this is our lifestyle and our way of living which was built on the grounds of chrisitianity... not islam! Shame on YOU, that you don;t even remember how and who armenians are. Thoth, you've got wrong image. If you think it is fear of losing power in me, then you are totally wrong. There are women much clever than me, better drivers than me, better in many things. In my university classes, there are so many much more intellegent girls than me... extremely intellegent. But it is not about man-woman war. I understand why you might think that, because your society is filled with absessed feminists, when you say a word about woman, they start jumping from nowhere and defending how women generally better than men or equal to men. E.g. lucid, and 90% of girls arguing in this topic. But it is totally different case here. totally... It is about family and about successful family. And what are the ways of having successful family. There are 3 ways: 1) Man and woman being equal2) Man taking final decisions (now i am not going to use the word on the top or higher as for it seems to be very offensive and you start with this power thing)3) Woman taking final decisions First would not work! Why? Too much arguments... and probably that's why you guys have 50% divorce rate. We i think pretty much agreed on this. Second and third are of similar concept but the difference is different person. If you consider the third option, then it means your wife has to work be major financial source and take most of the risks. If you are man, and respect your wife, you should make sure that your wife gets the happiest life without any troubles and worries. So i hope you get my idea. Hasmiek, you right... things are not simple but simplicy and order in family... that what made our family successful. I agree it would be very difficult to use this concept in western society with full of absessed girls such as lucid. But i want you to understand that, if man does not allow his wife to do one thing or another thing, this is ONLY... again ONLY because of protection, care and love towards his wife. So, it isnt about bulshit man being more supperiour or higher or better... or because he wants to prove that "he is the man"... but rather about protection, care and love towards his wife. That's all. Thoth it is not misconception... it is the FACT... and you know, that in your society generally husband and wife first think about themselves and then about kids. If it would be opposite then the divorce rate wouldn't be so high... as it really harms kids, especialy when they are very young... so they don't know the word sacrifice... And please don't use Taliban/Artur ... i am nothing like them, and you don't know who they are. except the propaganda your government has been feeding you about them. These people have their own way of living, so you should leave them alone. About abortion rate... i have to confirm this... i don't think in Armenia the abortion rate is high... but i know very "modern" girls in order to escape punishment from parents do go for it. I think all of them should be punished havily with minimum of 20 years in prison. Abortion is a crime that is more brutal than just killing an innocent person... from my point of view. Also, can you please define and explain why i am naive. That's probably how 95% of families operate in Armenia, so then the whole Armenia is naive... ) The best to you all,Artur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 Geez... my previous post was the longest on this forum... [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: ARTURian ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Thoth, you've got wrong image. If you think it is fear of losing power in me, then you are totally wrong. There are women much clever than me, better drivers than me, better in many things. In my university classes, there are so many much more intellegent girls than me... extremely intellegent. But it is not about man-woman war. I understand why you might think that, because your society is filled with absessed feminists, when you say a word about woman, they start jumping from nowhere and defending how women generally better than men or equal to men. E.g. lucid, and 90% of girls arguing in this topic. But it is totally different case here. totally...I'm not sure that this disproves my contention...LOL quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:It is about family and about successful family. And what are the ways of having successful family. There are 3 ways:1) Man and woman being equal2) Man taking final decisions (now i am not going to use the word on the top or higher as for it seems to be very offensive and you start with this power thing)3) Woman taking final decisionsFirst would not work! Why? Too much arguments... and probably that's why you guys have 50% divorce rate. We i think pretty much agreed on this.Second and third are of similar concept but the difference is different person. If you consider the third option, then it means your wife has to work be major financial source and take most of the risks. If you are man, and respect your wife, you should make sure that your wife gets the happiest life without any troubles and worries. So i hope you get my idea.I don't agree that there are 3 ways. There are single parent families and there are group/communal/extended family arrangements - all of which can work perfectly fine (and are not exactly in the model that you espouse). You are much too rigid (and thus narrowmined) - that is your chief problem.What is your problem with arguments? I must say my wife and I do not argue about things as you are implying. We may (and do) disagree on something or another - this can sometimes lead to an argument (though contrary to what it might seem I am not at all the arguing kind - not in this way) - ussually it leads to a discussion concerning why one of us things one way and the other another. We ussually come to satisfactory comprimise (or she convinces me she was right all along [ussually] LOL)I challenge your contention that women can never be allowed to take risks or to provide finacially (two completely different things I might add). My wife has a Master of Business Administration - are you telling me she is only worthy to be a stay at home mother? Well - she would just eat you alive for suggesting such. In fact - my disposition (and skills - such as cooking/cleaning etc) make me more suited to staying at home and taking care of the houshold (if it required either of us to do such) - and I would have no problems - psychological or otherwise in doing such if need be. But we both work - we both take care of our children (and often have and do jump through quite a number of hoops to do so - such as adjust our work schedules to accomadate their school schedules etc etc - for a time I began work at 6:30 am to get to their schol at 4PM while my wife took them to school at 9 am and did not get home to 6-7pm. Luckily we now have an arrrangement where we can commute to work together and we have someone watching the children for an hour or two each day for us - and it is working out great. My point is twofold. 1) there are many family (and care) arrangements that can work for people - choices do not need to be constrianed - and I would challange anyone to claim that our children are recieving anything less then an ideal upbringing, education and loving care and 2) I think it is a great misconception that Americans or such do not love and care for their children and that they only think of themselves. Sure some people are like this...everywhere. But this is not the norm.And all this talk of 50% divorce rate. Much of this is folks who get married and divorced multiple times I think...LOL. In other cases its just a reflection in how the idea of family and the idea of relationships have changed somewhat (or I should say the definition has expanded) and Western society has goten away from single partner exclusivenss in all cases. I argue that this is not any big concern - it is just a different way of things - OK for some people. In fact in many cases divorce is a good option as some people are not happy together. People should be happy. And even when there are children - many are more happy and better cared for after the divorce - there is good experience and bad. I'm not sure you can even understand the points I am trying to make here.... quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:But I want you to understand that, if man does not allow his wife to do one thing or another thing, this is ONLY... again ONLY because of protection, care and love towards his wife. So, it isnt about bulshit man being more supperiour or higher or better... or because he wants to prove that "he is the man"... but rather about protection, care and love towards his wife. That's all.It is not for you to allow - pure and simple - the relationship is not - or should not be - master and slave - and this is what you propose. I can protect and care for my wife - without demanding obediance. etc quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Thoth it is not misconception... it is the FACT... and you know, that in your society generally husband and wife first think about themselves and then about kids. If it would be opposite then the divorce rate wouldn't be so high... as it really harms kids, especialy when they are very young... so they don't know the word sacrifice...See above. And you are very wrong about sacrifice. Sure - some do not - and will never understand such - and they shouldn't have children in the first place (but there is no test you must take to have children). These problems exist in all societies - not just in the West. We are no different in this regard - good and bad. The truth may just surprise you (if you knew how to open your eyes). quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:And please don't use Taliban/Artur ... i am nothing like them, and you don't know who they are. except the propaganda your government has been feeding you about them. These people have their own way of living, so you should leave them alone. Yes yes - no your not Taliban you say - but you support them - we should leave them alone - etc. How do you know what I do and don't know about Taliban? You don't know very much IMO. Your argument is like a Young Turk saying to outsiders - you don't know what we put up with - just leave us to take care of our own problems. So is this the correct course of action? To do nothing? You think about it. And you keep an eye out for the stories of torture, mutilation, mass murder and supression of basic rights that the Taliban forced upon their nation. During this last campaign I had occasion to speak with a very many Afghans and I always began by expressing sympathy for what (the innocents of) their nation was going through with our invasion/bombing and the like. To a person (no exaggeration) they said no - this was all a good thing because the Taliban must go! Yet you are defending them. quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:Also, can you please define and explain why i am naive. That's probably how 95% of families operate in Armenia, so then the whole Armenia is naive... )The best to you all,ArturYour naivite is obvious (to most of us) in your every post. I have been trying to explain it in my every response. If you can't understand then I guess it is due to you...I don't kow...naivite? LOLAnd perhaps much of (not all - you don't speak for/know all) of Armenia is naive in this matter - or still requires some evolving - IMO....and it is occuring...though I don't think it is as perhasp as bad/backword as you portray. I also think my nation and Europe have a ways to go in humaness and evolution of proper attitudes for people/governments etc. We all have quite a ways to go in general...IMO.[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: THOTH ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 ... [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: ARTURian ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 Thanks, Sip... More or less. It is fundumental... Catholicos can't be a woman, the defender of the land shouldn't be a woman. Woman as mother associated with tenderness and purity, the risks are left for the man. If you change and put woman on the top, this would mean woman should take all the risks and decisions, and man should sit there under her protection with kids. You can't throw woman to fight against Turks, while you site with kids... can you? If you say yes, then THAT would mean the biggest disrespect to women. So there are differences which God put between man and woman... if you don't believe in God... then change the word God to nature. Best of luck!Artur [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: ARTURian ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 very pretty artur, I see you're just a naive young boy. hope your expectations of your family life will work out for you, and I hope that if it doesn't work out you don't drop into a big dissapointment of life. best wishes.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anshnork Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 Arthur-Throughout your posts, you have argued that in order for a family to function well, there needs to be a someone that makes all the final decisions (to prevent arguements and such). You have also argued that the male should be this decision-maker. When asked why, you have answered that a man would not be a "man" if he sat back and let a woman run things. However, you contradicted yourself in your last post: quote:Originally posted by ARTURian: So, it isnt about bulshit man being more supperiour or higher or better... or because he wants to prove that "he is the man"... but rather about protection, care and love towards his wife. That's all. Artur So, if proving one's "manhood" is not the reason for having the man as the final decision-maker, what is? Is it just because throughout Armenian history, the man has always been at the head of the family, and you want to continue tradition? If this is the case, do you believe that this ancient idea, which evolved in a completely different time and society, STILL applies today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:And all this talk of 50% divorce rate. Much of this is folks who get married and divorced multiple times I think...LOLThis is actually very true. I read somewhere long while ago that only 20 to 30 percent of people in US get a divorce, but the rate is close to 50% because so many of thos 20% of people get multiple divorces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 By the way, I know everyone says that 50% of marriages end in divorce but do you realize the other 50% end in DEATH? The other thing is that I really hope Arthurian is a real person out there because I don't think it's too funny if it is someone else that is just trying to start arguments (I've seen it happen before) So let me see Arthur jan. So far, if I understood correctly, is that:1) Man should have final word in family (but you don't want to call that being superior).2) Taliban and their ideals is OK and should be left alone.3) Bible is perfect.4) High divorce rates are direct result of women having equal say in the family structure.5) Abortion is murder.6) All women who have abortions should be imprisoned for about 20 years7) "modern" girls typically have abortions to "escape" punishments from parents. Oh man ... I don't know where to begin anymore! We are soooo different in our thinkings that I feel there's no hope to reach any agreement on anything! By the way, I strongly disagree with every one of the points listed up there. I also know a lot of people think just like you but if you are a real person somewhere and not just someone pretending for argument's sake then I commend you for at least talking about it in a civilized manner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted January 23, 2002 Report Share Posted January 23, 2002 quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:...About abortion rate... i have to confirm this... i don't think in Armenia the abortion rate is high... but i know very "modern" girls in order to escape punishment from parents do go for it. I think all of them should be punished havily with minimum of 20 years in prison. Abortion is a crime that is more brutal than just killing an innocent person... from my point of view....Wrong again Artur. You can't pretend that only .0001% of women in Armenia have abortions becuase the other 99.999% are all pure.------- http://www.usaid.gov/am/assets/Image5.gif Nationwide surveys indicate that information about contraception is extremely limited and many methods are more expensive than abortion. Based on the contraceptive efficacy index, only 26.2% of women surveyed were good users of birth control - meaning that they used reliable methods consistently and correctly. As a result, there are many unplanned pregnancies and many women seem to rely on abortions as a method of family planning. According to surveys, on average women have 2.7 abortions in their lifetime. Of the women who have ever had abortions, the rate rises to 4.2 abortions per woman. As indicated in the chart above, the number of abortions per 100 live births increased from 34.7 in 1989 to 65.1 in 1996. 1997 showed a slight decrease to 48.8. ---------From http://www.usaid.gov/am/gender.html There are many other studies about this if you want me to look them up I will.--------BTW, Abortion rate is so high because MEN in Armenia "love" and "care" their women so much that they jeopardize their lives by not using contraception and then force them to have an abortion. Oh and abortion is as much of a crime as not wearing a condom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucid_dream Posted January 24, 2002 Report Share Posted January 24, 2002 quoteI understand why you might think that, because your society is filled with absessed feminists, when you say a word about woman, they start jumping from nowhere and defending how women generally better than men or equal to men. E.g. lucid, and 90% of girls arguing in this topic....Artur wow, now 90% of the women responding, including me, are feminists??? lolll that was funny...why dont you go look up the definition of a feminist in the dictionary. first of all we're realists...second, you're the one with the problem, you're just plain sexist. That's all. [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: Lucid_dream ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 24, 2002 Report Share Posted January 24, 2002 ... [ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: ARTURian ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 24, 2002 Report Share Posted January 24, 2002 That's it i give up... : ) It will take millions of years to read and reply to all your posts. Let God judge, and let people live. I thought it might be good discussions but now it is more of a war. So far i was accused of being sexist, muslim, naive person, taliban supporter... well thanks a lot, my non-armenian friends... To all of you i would like to ask to think, and to think again about the way I was explaining here and why with this way, when let say 20 years ago in Armenia there were almost no drug, prositution, abortion, divorce, begging of kids etc. etc. problems wereas in our society some horrifying staff was and still happening... Just think ... BTW did you read the latest news about little girl aged 9 being charged in court for "sexual games" with her 4 y.o. and 3 y.o. kidnergarden mates? She might get 2 years in prison... That is some scarry shit, folks. Anyways, wish you all the best,Artur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted January 24, 2002 Report Share Posted January 24, 2002 quote: 20 years ago in Armenia there were almost no drug, prositution, abortion, divorce, begging of kids etc. etc. sure there was,it just wasn't out in the open dear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 24, 2002 Report Share Posted January 24, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hasmiek:sure there was,it just wasn't out in the open dear!Hasmiek, your "statements2 only show that you have no idea and image about armenian society, and never lived there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted January 24, 2002 Report Share Posted January 24, 2002 aha, so you're ignorant too where to start... prostitution: the worlds oldest profession; If you tell me there was no prostitution in armenia, i can't do anything but laugh at you abortion; happened eveywhere allways. Women found reasons and ways to abort their pregnancies in all times. My own grandmother once had to abort her child (in armenia) because of her health. She took some herbal mixture which stopped the pregnancy. This was in the nineteenfiftees; in armenia, and from what I heard....she was not theonly one. drugs; alcohol and tobacco are taken in public. Other drugs not, an any other country than holland, drugs are taken privately. and as you seem to be a proper boy; you won't see it. begging: this one i can't be as sure about as the points before; i guess in the sovjet time there was not much to beg from. I see from your responces, artur, that you are a difficult young man who can't accept reality. You see everything so black and white, and that is just not the way to see things if you want to understand the things happening around you, and to understand what we are saying to you. At first i touht the taliban comaprisson was overdone but somehow they had the same black-whiteness as you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anshnork Posted January 24, 2002 Report Share Posted January 24, 2002 Arthur jan-I have one more question for you. It's kind of different than what we've been talking about. Throughout your posts you have said that women and men are generally equal in intellectual capacity. Keeping this in mind, do you beleive that women should be educated? If you believe that they should, why? Since your ideal woman would be in the home for the rest of her life, she'll never use her school education, so why should she get that bachelor's degree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Nvard:I like the other one..."Mujiki vse i vsegda kozly "________________________________________________Bednaya Nvard...A kak Vi budete zhit' s takim KOZLOM? A yesli on ne tol'ko KOZYOL, no i... KOZYOL otpushcheniya? A vprochem, "Ti zhenshchina - i etim ti prava"(V. Bryusov)...____SAS [ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: SAS ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nvard Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by hasmiek:aha, so you're ignorant toowhere to start...prostitution: the worlds oldest profession; If you tell me there was no prostitution in armenia, i can't do anything but laugh at youabortion; happened eveywhere allways. Women found reasons and ways to abort their pregnancies in all times. My own grandmother once had to abort her child (in armenia) because of her health. She took some herbal mixture which stopped the pregnancy. This was in the nineteenfiftees; in armenia, and from what I heard....she was not theonly one.drugs; alcohol and tobacco are taken in public. Other drugs not, an any other country than holland, drugs are taken privately. and as you seem to be a proper boy; you won't see it. begging: this one i can't be as sure about as the points before; i guess in the sovjet time there was not much to beg from..Oh my God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Artur jan,I really have to agree with you..They all can't even imagine what it was like to live in Soviet Armenia!!!!!!!!!It was just HEAVEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!No States and no Europe could be compared to that!People left their cars and houses opened at night,and young girls could stay in the parks up till 11 PM , you could walk in the dark streets without being afraid for your life, people had bags full of golden jewelry,they had the most expensive furniture and china.......I can just go on and on and on........What do you know about Soviet Armenia????Huh??NOTHING!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nvard Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 quote:Originally posted by SAS:________________________________________________Bednaya Nvard...A kak Vi budete zhit' s takim KOZLOM? A yesli on ne tol'ko KOZYOL, no i... KOZYOL otpushcheniya? A vprochem, "Ti zhenshchina - i etim ti prava"(V. Bryusov)...____SAS [ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: SAS ]Kstati privet Rossiyskim zemlyakam Ya vsegda prava A kak my budem jit' s takim kozlom?Kak nibud' razberyomsya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasmiek Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 there is prostitution, drug use, divorce, euthenasia, beggars etc, in amsterdam and yet i feel safe to walk alone on the streets on the middle of the night. and i don't have to put my bike locked all the time. and i carry my lap top around in every neigboorhood. and my friends children can play outside till 11 pm in the summer vacations. sorry, but i don't believe what you guys say.i would't believe any one in any country on that subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 Nvard, privet... No tol'ko ne govorite svoemu "kozlu" , chto "vsegda prava". A to, neroven chas, pokazhet svoy kozlinniy norov. ____SAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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