The stolen heritage

[ThornyRose]

And you men always marry for culinary skills and beauty and a nice bod, everywhere... How's that for crap?

[khodja]

Ali,

 

You have honed in on the heavy burden that my father had to carry. Better we had come from meager background than to have others expect you to reach the pinnacle of your ancestors in a foreign land. No wonder he ran so far from his roots.

 

As for the history of the era of World War I, I am aware of the fact that many Turks and Moslems had to escape to Turkey from the Balkans and other areas penniless. The Bosnian situation shows that this pattern exists today. But why were the Armenians made to pay for what other Christians did?

[khodja]

Thorny,

 

If a man is attractive and athletic why should he want to marry an unattractive and dumpy woman?

 

On the other hand, when I see an unattractive rich older man with a beautiful young wife it drives me up the wall. All this is is permanent prostitution.

 

The mind warp does not lie in the natural desire of men for an attractive woman, but in the desire of women, even professional and successful ones to marry men with social standing.

 

So many women who espouse equality are hypocrites.

[MJ]

This is a passage reflective of my reasoning to give a dignosis of foot-and-mouth decease to Bedros. Maybe it may also help Ali to understand why my replies to Bedros might've been "borderline insulting."

[khodja]

RE: MJ's latest post:

 

Typical for a conservative Republican to only display parts of one's statements, thereby taking it out of context.

[khodja]

The Armenian nation will survive only if it enters the present age. I suggest that our philanthropists send persons from the ROA to Greece for a week or two to see what Armenia could become. Why are we still living in the 15th century? You can remain Armenian yet acquire more progressive ideas. Will MJ label this kind of talk is foot-and-mouth disease?

[khodja]

Foot-and-mouth "decease," MJ? In view of your previous comments suggesting that I commit suicide, was this a Freudian slip?

[ThornyRose]

Not our business to decide - who are we to know the chemistry that's been going on with the couple? Really.
Athletic and attractive man with unattractive woman - why not? Why does everything have to depend on looks? It is about the brains and how much interest they share.
And you have to bear in mind that it is also the circumstances that make such young women "permanent prostitutes," as you say - society's teaching them that they are to be ornaments instead of producers who work and get their due/pay.
There are also young guys who go for and marry older, widowed women with inheritances (or their own earned money) - it is considered adventuresome and something to brag about, no?
People have to be taught individuality - instead, your upbringing espouses opportunism, whatever. Individuality also gives one the will to respect such old-with-young marriages, believing they have been consummated out of honesty - or, if not, that's just their business - why even bother to think about it?
If I knew the head-scarved young girls around were honest and had done enough research to know that putting on a wig is just as sinful in Islam (I'm talking about the lengths they will go at to not show their hair in the wake of the head-scarf ban), I wouldn't have even bothered to question why they are supposed to have respect for us un-head-scarved (as they claim they do) when they were trying so hard not to show their own - as if they would instantly become prostitutes - then what are they thinking about us? etc.
I think that the old-young marriage issue can engender individualism (while the issue with our backwardist girls does not). I've been thinking about this, because I have a female relative (actually of my generation, but much older) who recently married someone her father's age... I doubt that I make the above statements to provide concessions for my relative.

[aurguplu]

no mj, it doesn't, actually.

by the way, i recall he said his name was not bedros. why do you call him bedros, then?

with all due respect, i still disagree with your attitude toward him. i expect you to understand that this is not the same as disagreeing with the opinions you expressed, but still, your attitude toward him is unpleasant to say the least, and it is also not a reflection of his attitude toward you. he doesn't call you anything other than mj, does he?

mj, i recall you have very strongly disagreed with many other contributors in the past, some of these included turks who denied the genocide, tried the survivors of it to convince that there wasn't one, hurled insults at the entire armenian nation, posted things that you had to remove on the grounds of decency, you even banned some people from the forum, but as far as i can observe your attitude toward khodja has been more negative than yours against all these people put together. this is why i am so puzzled about your attitude toward him, for i have known you as a guy who could keep his calm even though in his mind he rejects all of what his opponent says, and may be deeply angered by it.

this is not an attack on you. just that i am worried about your attitude and wondering what happened to the formerly cooler, more balanced mj.

i hope i didn't offend you, for that was not the intention.

regards,

[MJ]

Yes. I will.

Ali, I will reply to you later.

[khodja]

Ali,

 

I see that you are by far a better armchair psychiatrist than he who claims to be. My father's fellow engineers would call him "lefty" and it had nothing to do with which hand he used to write or cut paper. This was the progeny of one of the Ottoman Armenian elite. This was engenderd during his teenage years in Paris when his lower class French bosses would taunt him with the words "Salle Etranger!" The things that the Catholic priests did to him we can not speak of here. He did not even look Armenian with his light hair, green eyes and Northern European appearance.

 

MJ is not unusual for an Armenian. You have only to read the revelations of Ara Baliozian to understand that the behavior of MJ is quite standard for Armenian males. They have taken this brilliant man and turned him into an old, sick pauper.

 

From what I understand of Turkey, things are quite similar there. Dissent is put down very harshly. I will respond again after I see what the Armenian "Dr. Freud" has to say.

[aurguplu]

khodja,

your family and mine seem to have had very similar experiences. a distant uncle of mine, whose father was among the top ottoman elite, was reduced to selling soap door-to-door after they had to leave turkey on the eve of the collapse of the empire. as we say in turkish, there is a good in every evil, the good was that they acquired firsthand experience of the down-and-out of this world. many members of my (aristocratic) family became leftist after that experience.

as for the price the armenians paid for what other christiand had done, it of course does not square with our commonly accepted notions of justice. in one of my very early postings under the category "genocide" (it was titled "expose of the armenian genocide by halil berktay" if i remember correctly) i had quoted berktay verbatim: he said "armenians were left holding the bag". in other words, they were the victims of the feeling of hatred and lust for revenge harboured by the victimised balkan and russian muslims, and even the actions of the triumvirate and their conviction that there was no possibility of christians and muslims living peacefully side by side (the triumvirate, as a good part of the ittihad ve terakki, were composed of balkan muslims who had seen their ancestral lands gone and their neighbours turned enemies) can be at least partly ascribed to this. berktay had quoted w.h. auden (the english poet), who, upon receiving the news in new york that world war two had started, composed the following quatrain:

i and the general public know
what all schoolchildren learn
those to whom evil is done
do evil in return

let me confess that i know of no other piece of literature that sums up the story of that era and human experience in general better than this one.

i suggest you go to that thread and have a look at it.

cheers,

[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: aurguplu ]

[aurguplu]

ok guys

 

i have come to the tentative conclusion that you guys knew eachother (or at lesat suspected eachother's identity) before joining this forum, and had "a difference of opinion", to put it politely, and not on a political or scientific point, but a private, personal one, and the topic under discussion has been a battlefield where you in fact where fighting another battle.

 

i came to this conclusion after reading khodja's last post, which pointed to a "difference of opinion" regarding matters of a private nature.

 

i had thought that you were discussing the topic tackled in this thread, and got very passionate about it, and then the conflict spilled into other areas, and some of my postings got involved in it (or so i thought). as a result i felt a bit upset and guilty and tried to step in to stop the quarrel.

 

but i fear now that the fight has very little, if anything, to do with any one of my postings, it appears to be an old one, a personal one, about which i know nothing and which is none of my business, anyway. so i shall, from now on, resist the temptation to comment on your fight.

 

if i was wrong somebody inform me please.

 

no offence intended to any party, i shall carry on my communication with each one of you as long as it is o.k. with you, but i am pulling out of this one if it really is what i have come to suspect it is - a personal quarrel.

 

take care and make peace: if we can expect armenians and turks to make peace, can't we expect two armenians make peace, too?

 

cheers,

[MJ]

Wise choice to pull out, Ali... I myself have no intention to be part of it, unless Hagop continues walking after me and barking annoyingly in all threads of this forum.

 

As to the premise of the "ongoing personal debacle," I know about it as much as you do.

 

In the spirit of his narcissistic self-indulgence, as demonstrated many times by Hagop in this and other forums, he keeps bringing more personal stories up to the surface. And if there is any doubt as what drives him in doing so, make no mistakes: Hagop is using the opportunity, or what he thinks to be an opportunity, to tell one more time " See how great I am."

[khodja]

Ali,

 

This battle between MJ and myself was engendered in another Armenian forum. He stalked my comments there for months. Even though we do not know each other personally, he knew of me before I came to this forum. I feel that he misunderstands my motiviations. What I have attempted to do is to play a "devil's advocate" role in order to get Armenians to step away from their myths and their deep-seated prejudices. This is similar to what some enlighened Turks, including yourself, have been attempting to do in Turkey. Any people whose world-view is molded solely by the religious hierarchy will have difficulty operating in a cosmopolitan world. Islamic fundamentalism is causing much misery in the Islamic world, especially for women. Jewish fundamentalism was the cause of the assassination of Rabin and is fueling the flames of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Christian fundamentalism is behind the murder of physicians and others in America.

[MJ]

It appears that other than suffering from the foot-and-mouth disease, you are also a liar. I have discussed something with you just one time - pointing to a lie of yours, which you rushed to support by another lie. I have never spoken in another forum other than this one instance.

 

However, I have read the postings of the other forum regularly, never participating, and not specifically for the purpose of reading you - just for one time move a little further from your narcissism, please.

 

And guess what have I thought of you, when reading your postings... I have thought "What a pathology."

[khodja]

Given your diagnosis, I repectfully inquire, "Doctor, would you inform us about your credentials?" Where did you conduct your residency? I would not want to have to question your professional integrity, Dr. Freud.

[khodja]

RE: MJ

 

When have you ever known an anonymous person to tell stories in order to bring on self aggrandizement? What narcissism is there if no one knows who you are? This comment is similar to stating than the person who donates a sizeable anonymous gift to an Armenian charity is tying to show, "See how great I am." What I am trying to do is to shock the Armenians out of their collective "straight-jacket."

[aurguplu]

khodja,

 

my family (and myself) seem to have gone through very similar experiences, as i have said before.

 

you know that anatolian turks, although very varied, are generally dark-skinned, hairy, with thick eyebrows and an enormous moustache running across their faces (women do not have the last one ). turks have very interesting experiences of racism: first, let's face it, we are quite racist about arabs and persians (it's funny that we are not racist - at least that racist - about greeks and armenians, but fellow muslims. so much for muslim solidarity). our racism is based on their way of life and practices and - especially in the case of arabs - standards of hygiene and notion of bravery in warfare. since are on the whole a bit darker than us, we may also have a tinge of the european-style racism here (i think this last one is not endemic to the area, or at least dominant in it, but an importation from the west). turks, like all nations, have their fair share of stereotypes of other nations, most of them about negative qualities.

 

then there is the experience of racism that turks get. since more turks today have prolonged contacts with the west than the east, they get exposed to western types of racism. these tend to be a blend of two things: first, the past fear and hatred of the turks on account of the ottoman threat, and second, the biological kind of racism where turks have become the "white niggers" of europe on account of their slightly darker, albeit still caucasian, complexion.

 

i experienced all of that. in my case it was funny because i am wite with fair hair and blue eyes and have only a hint of mongol eyes that most people don't even notice unless i tell them. i pass for a european without problem, and most slavs take me for a fellow slav (which from a genetic point of view is actually largely correct). it is only when i reveal my turkish identity (i have never disguised it no matter what) that things change: there is, at first, gulps and looks of mild amazement, for few europeans realise that there are european-looking turks, then there are remarks that amount to saying, well, so some of you are human after all, maybe we can try to have establish a semblance of a relationship with you even though you are a turk etc. this is of course not the attitude of the majority of the europeans, but of a disturbingly large minority. this is followed by the revelation of an extreme ignorance of turks: i have to start from scratch and educate them that we are neither arabs nor persians (and that, by the way, persians are also not arabs, for they don't know that, either) and serious relationship between the two peoples is very difficult indeed (and the presence of the lowest segment of turkish society in germany, abusing the welfare system, has not helped a bit).

 

so i am in a very good position to understand you. as we say in turkish, a man who has fallen from a roof can understand the pain of another man who has fallen from a roof.

 

as for this war of words between you and mj, i am upset for both of you because both of you came out as intelligent, informed people of high caliber and integrity across you earlier postings in the forum, and i feel sad when i see two such people get into such a quarrel over certain differences which seem a bit inconsequential to me (i may be wrong, because i do not know the settings you both come from as well as you do), and somehow i also got mixed into this as some of mj's replies to you concerned your answers to some of my postings. i have never observed mj use such language as he used against you even at some turkish fascists who came here to insult the armenians, persuade them there was no genocide, and even threaten them with a future genocide, in turkish, which had to be translated by a turkish-speaking armenian from turkey (remember raven, mj?). in fact, mj had issued formal warnings to contributors who "crossed the line" and even banned some from the forum who used a language not very dissimilar to his current usage against you.

 

so i see mj kind of having lost his calm and i feel sad about it. also both of you are grown-up men who are probably considerably older than me (i am 34), so i think (if i may say so, no offence intended) that you could do better.

 

i do not want to delve into this much further, because i fear that it is turning into something personal and if it is, then 1) it is none of my business, and 2) it is not in my area of interest.

 

but i feel sad about seeing two otherwise brilliant people engage in such mud-slinging that is really below their class.

 

again, no offence intended to either one of you.

 

cheers,

[MJ]

Ali,

While some of your observations may be correct, I have not lost my calm - I am just disgusted. Besides, the more than 3500 postings of mine in this forum perhaps are having some side effect in form of a fatigue - I am tired and bored.

As to Hagop (since his name is not Bedros), if I knew how could one help him with his schizophrenia - I would truly have been ready to do so. But he is a lost cause.

As to issuing warnings and banning the uncontrollable, I would still urge the Moderators of the forum to vigorously exercise it, even if it may imply me receiving further warnings and being banned.

[khodja]

Disgust, MJ?

 

Why am I so disgusting to you? Because I walked out of my marriage with an abusive Armenian woman? Will probably marry someone outside the Christian faith? Believe that Armenians are partially descended from Hebrews and Mongols? Accept and respect my cousin, a homosexual Armenian physician?

 

Where is your disgust centered?

[aurguplu]

ok guys (2)

 

as stated before, i am pulling out of your personal fight and will reply to postings only if they fall outside the strictly personal scope.

 

meanwhile, i have a proposal i would like to hear your opinion of it:

 

i have a rather thick two-volume "encyclopaedia of the ottomans", very recently published. it is a collection of biographies of some 2,300 notable ottomans, and there are quite a few armenians from all walks of life. the biographies range from a single column to sevral pages in length, with pictures in many cases. i do not have the facility to download the pictures, but could slowly translate or condense the entries and post in on to the forum, perhaps under "famous armenians". would anyone be interested?

 

cheers,

[ThornyRose]

I'd be!

[ThornyRose]

By the way, Ali, speaking of "famous Armenians," I had asked you to tell us a bit about Mrs.(?) Yumul, but you either didn't see it or declined from doing so. Even if I am not asking you to give personal details, is that a no-no? You know, something interesting about the person, how you've come to meet her, etc.

[aurguplu]

thorny,

 

1) re encyclopaedia: it is the "osmanlılar ansiklopedisi" by yapı kredi yayınları. edited by enis batur. two large thick volumes, all in turkish, so you can be a nice little girl and get a copy (not particularly expensive, besides there is a crisis now, and everybody i cutting down prices, so are the publishers/booksellers. in fact, if you can acquire a copy, you also can translate some into english and post them here, and i understand you are more computer literate than i am, so you can even scan the pictures, so it would be wonderful! so here is a little homework for you.

 

2) re arus. i do not meet her but very rarely, hee and there, since i am out of touch with the academic world now. as far as i know, she is (was) at the istanbul bilgi üniversitesi. we are here as turks at an armenian forum, and the whole thing is a very sensitive issue. so i have frankly refrained from posting what i know about her (which doesn't amount to all that much, actually) without her consent, and frankly i did not bother to contact her to ask whether she would allow me to post details about her in an internet forum! so frankly speaking i am afraid i will not post about her (sorry).

 

but she appears on tv every now and then, and i am sure you can contact her out of your own initiative (she may be a bit reserved, though, as a person, many academicians are). and the whole issue of armenian genocide being a very sensitive one, especially in turkey, she might decline to communicate on that.

 

so i will be of no help there i am afraid. i hope this has not put you off.

 

cheers, and consider getting a copy of that book,