The stolen heritage

[aurguplu]

khodja,

 

a word of solidarity:

 

don't be put off when you are called "mustafa" or "mehmet" by people whose opinion of certain issues differs from yours. i am called "artin suat" whenever i voice my known opinion of the armenian genocide, by people who cannot stomach it.

 

my usual refrain is that it is rude and a kind of racism to use an ethnic name or any name to designate an ethnicity to insult someone, at which point the more civilised ones shut up. as for the less civilised ones, well you can't help everyone, can you?

 

regards,

[MJ]

Ali,

 

I would just like to say that your premise is incorrect.

[aurguplu]

mj,

 

so i should not think that the people who call me "artin suat" on account of my acceptance of the genocide are using the armenian identity to insult me and commit a double crime by 1) insulting me because i defend a vision of the past that they oppose, and 2) insulting the entire armenian nation by using a typical armenian name as an instrument of insult?

 

may be i should not have levelled such harsh criticism on meral akşener, tansu çiller's interior minister, when she called abdullah öcalan "ermeni dölü" (armenian seed). she later (much later) confessed that that was the one thing she had regretted the most in her entire political career. even the armenian community of turkey, which is rarel seen and hardly ever heard, protested at the affront.

 

maybe we should not condemn her. may be she didn't say the things we thought she said.

 

what do you think, mj?

 

(by the way, my grand-grand father's name was mustafa, and one of my grandfathers' name was mehmet ali).

 

i am waiting for your clarification of the issue.

 

thanks in advance.

 

take care,

[MJ]

Ali,

 

I am literally out the door for my weekly trip, and can address the issue at this time only very briefly. Hopefully would revisit it later. And I would much appreciate that in the future you request clarifications from me instead of calling me names. Not that you are not at liberty to call me racist, but you couldn’t be further away from understanding the apparent controversy.

First, when people call you “Artin,” do you get insulted? Clearly this is just a rhetoric question. Is Mustafa a Turkish name or an Islamic name? I have thought Islamic.

Another question, when you go to these Turkish circles and express your opinions on the Armenian Genocide do you introduce yourself with a name like “Saradarabad,” for example? The title “Khodja” given to an Armenian is indicative of the Armenian enslavement throughout history and our assimilation. Tell me please, what is in your opinion the statement that the person coming to this forum is trying to make here? He says it is the title of his grand grandfather – shame on him. In another episode he proudly describes how his titled ancestor has stubbed a knife into the national liberation movement and consciousness, and from all I can gather, it has not just been a psychological position, but something with real consequences for the other types of Armenians. In this forum the person who introduces himself like “Khodja” does nothing else but stubbing the nation – there is not one positive material that he has posted. His entire behavior is one of a fly, which gets attracted to the manure. And if there is no manure, he creates it himself. His primary thesis in this forum, which he is carefully coming out with is that Armenians are of Jewish genetic makeup. First of all, scientifically speaking this is inaccurate (it doesn’t insult me however). But the most puzzling thing for me is that he is trying to make a statement out of it. He is trying to “prove” that Armenians are not a “pure” nation. First of all, who cares. Second, in my view, anybody who tries to make classifications of nations on the basis of the genetics, and suggest policies on that basis, as he does, belongs to the fringes of the human society and is the real racist, if you are searching for racists here. This is part of the reason he disgusts me.

The person in defense of whom you rise, totally denounces the Armenian Sovereignty and Statehood, promotes an idea (among other such ideas) that Armenians where better off under the Ottoman Empire, because his ancestors had reached high positions in the Ottoman establishment, for example. The question is at the expense of what?

As I have said many times in this forum, I have many Muslim friends – very close ones, I have no racial or ethnic issues with Turks, I have no anger for the past, etc. But I despise the Ottomanized Armenians like Khodja, while I may very much be supportive of the Turks – these Ottomanized Armenians are the liability of our nation. Another interesting thing to notice is his degree of Ottomanization being born (I assume) in America. By his own recognition, his family has been denounced by the Armenian Community. In other forums he claims that he is hiding his real identity so that some Armenians “don’t come after him.” Ask him why should some Armenians leave aside their personal lives and their businesses, and “come after him?” What is it that he has done? Or maybe what is it that his grand grandfather as done, maybe?

This is a hectic material. I am sort of nervous because I am running late. If I find time and energy, will plug in from my hotel. Otherwise, if I would not be too tired from the trip, I would get back to the subject over the weekend.

 

P.S. One last thing. If you are interested, ask him why does he support the Section 907, and what is it that bothers him in me not supporting it and not opposing its lifting. I am sure you can find the text of the Section 907 Resolution online.

 

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Juggernaut]

quote

why are so many Armenians leaving the homeland and settling in the land of the former conquerer, the Russians.

 

Because Armenia is ISOLATED, our only trading partner that also happens to share a border with us is Islamic Iran. In order to accumulate wealth, trade must occur. But even you (according to profile) want the Armenian Genocide recognised. How do you expect this to happen and trade with Turkey and Azerbaijan at the same time?

 

quote

Armenians did very well financially under the Ottomans, especially after the Tanzimat Reforms.

 

The Empire was very wealthy up to the 19th century, and the relative 'democracy' allowed non-Turks to accumulate wealth through TRADE.

 

quote

It was leaders of these backgrounds who led Armenia during it's most glorious periods, not those of Armenian heritage.

 

RUBBISH! And when did the French or the Hebrews lead us?

 

quote

Personally, I regret that I reentered the Armenian community in my early 20's. As an odar at that young age I had accomplished more than the majority of my peers.

 

Well, its not too late, I am sure if you have Hebrew blood, Judaism is always open.

[aurguplu]

"I am literally out the door for my weekly trip, and can address the issue at this time only very briefly. Hopefully would revisit it later. And I would much appreciate that in the future you request clarifications from me instead of calling me names. Not that you are not at liberty to call me racist, but you couldn’t be further away from understanding the apparent controversy."

 

I cannot see how I called you names. I merely pointed you that the manner in which you have used a Turkish (or Muslim) name to refer to your opponent was very much comparable to my experience as "artin suat". I am not claiming that you are racist or whatever, but tell me yourself, were you at our best there?

 

"First, when people call you “Artin,” do you get insulted? Clearly this is just a rhetoric question. Is Mustafa a Turkish name or an Islamic name? I have thought Islamic."

 

Well, if they know my real name and insist on calling me by another, yes, not because there is anything wrong with artin or being armenian, but simply because I am neither artin nor an armenian and never pretended to be. If you know who I am, then why do you insist on calling me something that we both know that I am not?

 

I thought that by referring to khodja as mustafa or mehmet you were calling him a turk. Obviously, the armenians have more to sort out with turks than other muslims, right?

 

"Another question, when you go to these Turkish circles and express your opinions on the Armenian Genocide do you introduce yourself with a name like “Saradarabad,” for example?"

 

No, because 1) I have my own name which has served me reasonably well so far, and 2) I do not know that much about sardarabad to adopt it as a name, and 3) most turks would not have heard of it.

 

"The title “Khodja” given to an Armenian is indicative of the Armenian enslavement throughout history and our assimilation."

 

There were armenians who were referred to as "khodja" in the ottoman empire. Besides, so many armenian surnames have turkish components. Shall we call this indicative of turkish enslavement, too? Maybe you should develop a healthier attitude toward the past. About the genocide we are agreed (I presume). But it is about the rest of the last 1,000 years that you have to come to terms with. Turkish dominion on the lands in question is a fact. You were not the only nation to experience it. On the other hand, extensive loss of central asian culture in favour of an anatolian one and adoption of an essentially anatolian lifestyle is also a fact for us. If it weren't for our language and high (as opposed to everyday) religious affiliation, what difference would there be between us an the rest of the anatolians, past and present?

 

One more thing: armenians have, throughout history, have proved very resistant to assimilation, at least the voluntary one. Forced assimilation is another matter and the title of "khodja" probably has nothing to do with it. (if his title were "yataghan" or "jizyah", then o.k., I would have agreed with you)

 

"Tell me please, what is in your opinion the statement that the person coming to this forum is trying to make here? He says it is the title of his grand grandfather – shame on him."

 

You have instantly put almost all ottoman armenians of note to shame.

"In another episode he proudly describes how his titled ancestor has stubbed a knife into the national liberation movement and consciousness, and from all I can gather, it has not just been a psychological position, but something with real consequences for the other types of Armenians."

 

I have to get back and read the relevant passage before I can address that one.

 

"In this forum the person who introduces himself like “Khodja” does nothing else but stubbing the nation – there is not one positive material that he has posted."

 

MJ, with all due respect, you are starting to sound like the Turkish nationalists that I am encountering over here. First, his opinions - and, o.k. background - may differ from yours, but that does not mean that he is stabbing the nation from behind. It simply means that you two differ. And as a legal alien (if I may use that term for myself) I have seen much sense in a good deal of his arguments.

 

"His entire behavior is one of a fly, which gets attracted to the manure."

 

It is a time-honoured intellectual practice. The fly is there because the manure is there.

 

"And if there is no manure, he creates it himself."

 

I doubt this last one.

 

"His primary thesis in this forum, which he is carefully coming out with is that Armenians are of Jewish genetic makeup."

 

This wasn't the impression I got of his thesis. All he was trying to say - as far as I got it - was that the Armenians have a habit of seeing themselves as a racially pure nation, whereas in fact they are jus as mixed as any other middle eastern nation.

 

"First of all, scientifically speaking this is inaccurate (it doesn’t insult me however). But the most puzzling thing for me is that he is trying to make a statement out of it. He is trying to “prove” that Armenians are not a “pure” nation. First of all, who cares."

 

Those who protest at it. If you didn't care, you wouldn't protest at it, would you?

 

Second, in my view, anybody who tries to make classifications of nations on the basis of the genetics, and suggest policies on that basis, as he does, belongs to the fringes of the human society and is the real racist, if you are searching for racists here. This is part of the reason he disgusts me.

 

I got the impression that he was trying to make precisely the opposite, namely to point out that classifications of nations based on perceived differences in the past - which include genetics - will soon be shown to have no basis in fact. In this he might have a point: in many cases, there are no convincing characteristics to distinguish a nation fro the others other than a national language and an awareness of a common past, but then again, our awareness of a common past, including our awareness of our own ethnicity - is at least partly shaped by a number of commonly held notions, many of which are either distorted or in te most extreme cases have the flimsiest connection to scientifically demonstrable realities.

 

This is what I think he is trying to say and I see no racism here, rather the precise opposite.

 

The person in defense of whom you rise, totally denounces the Armenian Sovereignty and Statehood, promotes an idea (among other such ideas) that Armenians where better off under the Ottoman Empire, because his ancestors had reached high positions in the Ottoman establishment, for example.

 

If he said that (that the Armenians were better of under the Ottomans) then I missed it, I have to re-read his postings. And if he connected it to the sole example of his own family (which I doubt) then you would have been right.

 

The question is at the expense of what?

 

I agree with you here. Certainly, independence and sovereignty is best for a nation, and the Armenians did lose certain things under the Ottomans, even though their treatment up to Abdulhamid II was considerably better than the treatment of other subject peoples in other empires.

 

As I have said many times in this forum, I have many Muslim friends – very close ones, I have no racial or ethnic issues with Turks, I have no anger for the past, etc.

 

MJ, your anger for the past occasionally pops out. I don't blame you for it in any way: even though I am no armenian, I have a certain anger for what happened to the armenians, especially when I think that certain maniacs did it in the name of my entire nation.

 

But I despise the Ottomanized Armenians like Khodja, while I may very much be supportive of the Turks – these Ottomanized Armenians are the liability of our nation. Another interesting thing to notice is his degree of Ottomanization being born (I assume) in America. By his own recognition, his family has been denounced by the Armenian Community.

 

These ottomanised armenians form a very significant proportion of the armenian community. Besides, don't forget: to be ottomanised is to become a natural part of of a multi-ethnic world empire. It is by no means the same as losing your ethnic identity and becoming a turk. If his family made a living in the ottoman empire and rose to high posts, how could he not become ottomanised? Can you be anything in america without being americanised?

 

In other forums he claims that he is hiding his real identity so that some Armenians “don’t come after him.” Ask him why should some Armenians leave aside their personal lives and their businesses, and “come after him?” What is it that he has done? Or maybe what is it that his grand grandfather as done, maybe?

 

No comment.

 

"This is a hectic material. I am sort of nervous because I am running late. If I find time and energy, will plug in from my hotel. Otherwise, if I would not be too tired from the trip, I would get back to the subject over the weekend.

P.S. One last thing. If you are interested, ask him why does he support the Section 907, and what is it that bothers him in me not supporting it and not opposing its lifting. I am sure you can find the text of the Section 907 Resolution online."

 

I have to read the section 907 resolution before doing that. Could you be so kind as to give me a link to it?

 

Thanks.

[aurguplu]

mj,

 

i found the letter by boghos noubar again, it was posted by oz in "us vs. them"

 

"Dear Minister,

 

I have the honour, in the name of the Armenian National Delegation, of submitting to Your Excellency the following declaration, at the same time reminding that:

 

The Armenians have been, since the beginning of the war, de facto

belligerents, as you yourself have acknowledged, since they have fought alongside the Allies on all fronts, enduring heavy sacrifices and great suffering for the sake of their unshakeable attachment to the cause of the Entente:

 

In France, through their volunteers, who started joining the Foreign Legion in the first days and covered themselves with glory under the French flag;

 

In Palestine and Syria, where the Armenian volunteers, recruited by the National Delegation at the request of the government of the Republic itself, made up more than half of the French contingent and played a large role in the victory of General Allenby, as himself and his French chiefs have officially declared;

 

In the Caucasus, where, without mentioning the 150.000 Armenians in the Imperial Russian Army, more than 40.000 of their volunteers contributed to the liberation of a portion of the Armenian vilayets, and where, under the command of their leaders, Antranik and Nazarbekoff, they, alone among the peoples of the Caucasus, offered resistance to the Turkish armies, from the beginning of the Bolshevist withdrawal right up to the signing of an armistice.

 

Boghos Nubar"

 

now if the numbers in this letter is anywhere near the truth, it appears that as many as a quarter of a million armenians (the french foreign legion was mentioned elsewhere to contain some 100,000 armenians at the time) were under arms fighting the turks. that is as much as %10 of one of the higher estimates for the total number of armenians in the ottoman empire at the time. in comparison, the current turkish republic has a population of 66 million people, and a standing army of some 550,000 souls, less thean ten per cent of the whole population.

 

so, shall we reexamine the issue of armenian involvement during the war prior to the genocide?

[khodja]

Juggernaut,

 

Please do your homework. Seek, seek and ye shall find! You will be shocked to find that both Tigran and the Bagratuni clan were Jews. Now go trace the geneology of the Kings of Giligia. You will be utterly shocked here as well. Take off your blinders, please.

 

Ani, the jewel of Armenian history was filled with Jewish craftsmen, some retaining their religion and some having assimilated and embraced Armenian Chrisitanity. Tigran settled many Jews throughout his empire and especially in his capitol.

[khodja]

Ali,

 

I see that you are getting the same treatment from some Turks as I get from many Armenians. MJ's perceptions of me and my ancestors are filtered through his prism. The difference was that these great men from whom this humble person springs had the ability to see beyond culture and religion. They did much good for the Armenian subjects of the Ottomans, even paying the taxes of thousands of Armenians. As you say, if the "manure" was not clearly apparent, there would be no flies. The future is in the hands of the Turkish government. My family was not alone. Are the Turks brave enough to resurrect the true history of the period? Are they ready to enter the next phase of their history by coming to terms not only with the Genocide (yes, I agree that there were some Armenian instigators) but by facing their true history in other areas. The Armenians were central to the success of Ottoman culure and economy. It is Turks, as well as Armenians, who believe that their myths are the reality.

[aurguplu]

o.k. everybody,

 

now that we know that "khakhonch" means "snail", i would like to know if anyone knew of a village of rize (eastern black sea coast) that was called by that name, and what its fate was.

 

could anyone help me out on that, please?

 

thanks in advance,

[bellthecat]

MJ, would you please explain your strange, (bordering on obsessive) dislike of the word "khodja" - a word which, as far as I am aware, simply refers to a wealthy merchant.

 

Steve

[Juggernaut]

quote

You will be shocked to find that both Tigran and the Bagratuni clan were Jews.

 

Were they practicing Jews? May I also remaind you that the first Christians were originally Jews too, but were later hunted down by their former brothers and sisters.

 

quote

some retaining their religion and some having assimilated and embraced Armenian Chrisitanity.

 

Yes, and what is the proportion, like 1 to 10?

[khodja]

Tigran couldn't be a Christian because he lived before the time of Christ. The Bagratunis have been described by the historians of the day as ethical Jews. I would take this to mean that although practicing Christians, they saw themselves as Jews. They proudly spoke of their Jewishness. A good part of the Christians of Anatolia up to the Fourth century clearly described themselves as Jews. It was only at this time that they suddenly refused to admit that they were Jews. It has something to do with the Emperor. Then they assimilated into the others of the region.

 

As for Ani, what percentage converted to Christianity we do not know. The geneticists are researching this right now. It is critical that the world's religions learn to live with one another so that the truths of history can be revealed.

[Juggernaut]

quote

Tigran couldn't be a Christian because he lived before the time of Christ.

 

I never said that he was a Christian, only not a practicing Jew

 

quote

I would take this to mean that although practicing Christians, they saw themselves as Jews.

 

Firstly, how can you be a practicing Christian and see youself as a Jew at the same time? This idea of yours is rediculous. Secondly, why would Jews be considered as Armenians in the case of Bagratids?

 

quote

A good part of the Christians of Anatolia up to the Fourth century clearly described themselves as Jews.

 

See above (how can someone be a Christian and a Jew at the same time?)

 

quote

It was only at this time that they suddenly refused to admit that they were Jews. It has something to do with the Emperor.

 

mmm, great explanation, a peoples that were and have stubbornly clung to their religion in the face of pogroms and genocide suddenly decided to become Christians (the worst enemy in the eyes of many Jews).

[khodja]

Juggernaut,

 

What I related about the Bagtaunis comes directly from the writings of Movses Khorenatsi, a renown historian of that era. As for the Jews of Anatolia, they saw themselves as of Jewish nationality (Hebrews) but Christian in their religious beliefs (followers of the teachings of Christ. Do you really not understand how this is possible? Tigran was a Hellenistic Jew. I qwill have to research further to ascertain whether he was a practicing Jew. Since he brought so many Jews into his capital to live, it could be possible that he was still practicing Judaism.

[Juggernaut]

quote

As for the Jews of Anatolia, they saw themselves as of Jewish nationality (Hebrews) but Christian in their religious beliefs

 

Their 'nationality' is BASED on their religion, there is nothing comparable in Chrstianity or Islam. Therefore one cannot be a Hebrew and a Christian in the same instance. The exception to this rule is probably Jesus Christ Himself.

 

As for Tigrans religion, it does not bother me, I prefer he be a Jew than a pagan.

[khodja]

I must disagree. Genetic studies have shown that almost all the Jews of today are somewhat descended from the ancestral peoples of the Middle East. This includes those also descended from the Khazars, etc. As for religion and ethnicity being unique for the Jews, must I remind you that for hundreds of years that was also the case for the Armenians (the Armenian brand of Christianity). There were attempts to unravel this early in our history, which were brutally quelched. The French changed this in Giligia from which persons such as myself emanated. The Armerican missionaries further changed this in the 9th century.

[Juggernaut]

quote

Genetic studies have shown that almost all the Jews of today are somewhat descended from the ancestral peoples of the Middle East.

 

Not all, but most. But ALL Jews have intermingled with many other ethnicities, thereby forsaking their 'nationality'. The only thing that unites them today (or should unite them today) is religion.

 

quote

This includes those also descended from the Khazars,

 

Khazars were not 'ethnic' Jews (as you would put it), they we converts. And it was mainly the ruling class that was Jewish, the commoners were not.

[MJ]

Ali,

 

I am back in my hotel from a business dinner and few drinks after a long day. Wouldn't like to get back to the original topic of this discussion unless I can concentrate on it. However, there are a couple of short comments that I would like to make:

 

1. I would appreciate if you could also post the date of the letter of Boghos Nubar *****, if you have at your disposal. I truly don't know it. However from its spirit I can discern that it has been written in 1919. Is this an accurate guess? I also would like to ask you if by posting it here (which was a good thing to do), you meant that any of my arguments given on the subject of this letter were invalid?

 

2. Very briefly talking on the subject of Khodja, I would like ot remind the readers the phrase of one of the greatest thinkers of the century, A. Maslow, where he claims something like, "If the only instrument you have is a hammer, every problem in the world reminds you a nail." I find this phrase to be of incredible precision. And it applies to Khodja (I may guess his real first name is Peter/Bedros) very accurately. The thing is that being the low level partisan (primaries) functionary he is, he has a very limited set of skills, and there are few things he has been trained to fight against. And so that to be able to do it successfully, he desperately tries to define your perimeters and put you in a framework (regardless if it is applicable), so that to take the few things from his small bag of limited tricks, and execute his routine exercise. I would’ve not bothered discussing him if the problem at hands was not of wider scale character.

 

I will address your previous posting on the subject when I can better concentrate on it.

[khodja]

I have never claimed that MJ is anything more than an ideologue. Strange that he has me under his psycho-analysis. Typical behavior for conservatives whether capitalists or communists. Intersting that I can communicate more effectively with a Turk who has done enough research to accept the reality of the genocide than an Armenian who questions little of what he has been indoctrinated.

[khodja]

I have a very common Armenian name but unfortunately for our resident psychiatrist it is not Peter/Bedros.

[khodja]

MJ,

 

You have entered a diatribe of vilification of me and my family. You have made broad assumptions from the flimsiest shreds of information. If I had lived in Armenia during the Stalin years you would have faslely accused me, pointed me out to Beria's henchmen and my bones would be rotting in Siberia. The accusations you make are NOT based on statements that I have made, but on your interpretations. You assume that every Armenian who found success under the Ottomans was a traitor to Armenians. You have taken the "Aslaneh ge kenangor, mi artensener" comments that my great-grandfather made to an Armenian audience, taken them out of context and therefore falsely accused this honorable gentleman of treason. It is this type of behavior, so common to our psyche, that will destroy us a a national group.

[aurguplu]

[aurguplu]

sorry for the format of the above posting. i messed i up again with the "reply with quote" business.

[Harut]

Armenians are Hebrews. Jews are not Hebrews.