aycemnik Posted November 3, 2002 Report Share Posted November 3, 2002 Does God like The Good, because it is good, or, The Good is good, because God likes it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 3, 2002 Report Share Posted November 3, 2002 I can't help but to think, is God good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted November 3, 2002 Report Share Posted November 3, 2002 what is good? [ November 03, 2002, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: Harut ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted November 3, 2002 Report Share Posted November 3, 2002 for me the good is good because when i do good i feel good. but i don't know if the god and i have the same definition for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 3, 2002 Report Share Posted November 3, 2002 What is "good" for "God"?...what is "God"?, what is a "good" "God"?...The only one of these questions we might answer at all with any certainty (I think) is the last - because the answer - being an opinion - is only expected to be an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted November 3, 2002 Report Share Posted November 3, 2002 aycemnik I very much like your question, its a Socratic paradox... Of the kind. "Has good been chosen to be Good by God" Or "Has God Chosen good, because it is good" The two possible answers will not satisfy the believer. Lets explain why, and lets explain what those two paradoxes means. If good has been chosen to be good by God, that means that God could have chosen killing and other acts that we consider immoral as good... that would mean that God would chose what is good chaotically. No believer could accept this, because it will imply that Good is good, because God has decided it to be good, and that one day he may decide else, they can not concieve God to take "his" decision in a chaotic manners. The the second paradox "Has God Chosen good, because it is good" The second paradox would not satisfy a believer as well, because it will mean, that good is somehow superior then God. Because Good is independent from God, good exist, and God has no choises then accepting this good, therefore, this good has always existed at least as long as God, because since it is believed that God invented everything, so as he must have invented good, but this paradox, will lead to believe that God has not created good, good always existed, and God has decided to accept it as it is, from this logic, we can even afirm that good is superior then God, because it is not good that accept God, but God forced to accept what is good. Like you see from the two sides, "God" loses, from one side if we take the first logic, good and bad are just an invention of God, therefore, he may have decided what we consider immoral as good, from the other side, good would be superior then God. There is always another possibility to get away with this paradox... What if, Good and God are the exact same antity ?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aycemnik Posted November 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2002 DominoDo you know that some religions do exept Good being there before God? And what made God a Rightous and All Powerfull one, is how perfect and good he became, once beind mortalas we all are now. Huh...., go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 5, 2002 Report Share Posted November 5, 2002 What really confuses me with the "God model" (when "good/bad" is concerned) is that well, if God is the almighty being that created everything including time, and space, and the universe, and us, and etc ... then why would God need to "find out" if we are good or bad? Wouldn't God already know everything since time is really not a factor for God? Seems to me like God should already know everything I will ever do so it doesn't really matter what I "decide" to do. God already knows it! It does become pretty strange when you take "time" out of the equation, dosn't it?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Sip:[QB]What really confuses me with the "God model" (when "good/bad" is concerned) is that well, if God is the almighty being that created everything including time, and space, and the universe, and us, and etc [QB]This strikes me as an extremely flawed an untennable concept. Unless of course we believe that this "universe" that we know/accept is only in some beings mind - a figment - unreality - and we are imagined beings with imagined lives and imagined thoughts...imagined sins etc etc - which begs the question - why should we care - and at the very least why should we care to conform to a construct of us conforming? quote:Originally posted by Sip:[QB]... then why would God need to "find out" if we are good or bad? Wouldn't God already know everything since time is really not a factor for God? [QB]Yes the what shal be has already been etc etc - so why bother. Bottom line this type of speculation is only that - and there are infinite speculations as to the nature of reality - many even much more plausable then this particualr one invented by our (comparatively) primiative anscestors. quote:Originally posted by Sip:[QB]Seems to me like God should already know everything I will ever do so it doesn't really matter what I "decide" to do. God already knows it! It does become pretty strange when you take "time" out of the equation, dosn't it?! [QB]Iys not strange at all - its just an example of how silly it is to believe such things in the first place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Sip:Seems to me like God should already know everything I will ever do so it doesn't really matter what I "decide" to do. God already knows it! It does become pretty strange when you take "time" out of the equation, dosn't it?! Yeah - and if this is all true it really should make you pissed off that your going to hell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 Aren't all playboy models, P0RN stars, sex-addicts, rocks stars, and Britney Spears all going to hell too? Well, SIGN ME UP!!!! ---Wow! Since when is **** (P0RN) a bad word? [ November 05, 2002, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Sip ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 [ November 05, 2002, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: Sip ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 Sip jan, no need to go to hell to meet P0RN stars or sex-addicts. You just need to talk to the right people if you want to meet them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 Oh I totally forgot about the "inside" connection After seeing some of those ladies in real life, I think it is easy to realize that GOD IS GOOD. Veeeeery GOOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 That is exactly what they say about their plastic surgeons. "GOD IS GOOOOOD, very good" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 The problem is, what is good ? And how you define what is good ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aycemnik Posted November 8, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 SIP! When you are saying that since God created us, then He knows our hearts and our actions to be, you, my fellow Armenian, are talking about the concept of Predestination. However, since Predestination is a Philosophical idea, many philosophers believe that one CAN, and OUGHT to, if needed change his/her desteny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 I see. Yes that makes sense ... "predesination" or whether we have active control over our lives is quite an interesting question by itself (I don't really know the answer of course!) ... to us it seems like we are making decisions over time ... to us the change in time matters ... but for a "GOD", for whom time is just another creation, our destiny becomes quite meaningless. If God is "above" time, then God can certainly see all things at all time ... that includes all actions we have made and will ever make. So the fact that we think we are doing something at some time is irrelevant in the eyes of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aycemnik Posted November 8, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 SIP!If you believe there is God, then nothing we do is irrelevant in God's eyes. May i ask, if it is comforting for you personally to think that God does not care for aur actions, or that our actions are not metters of much importance (for God that is)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 I am not a believer in God. I find great comfort in knowing that my actions are not that impacting to the Universe! That basically takes a huge load off my shoulders so to say. Unfortunately, I have this gift/curse of being able to think on my own. So even though I know my actions are not that significant in the Universe, per se, they are very significant in my own life. I, just like anyone else out there, is out to maximize my own happiness. The difficulty in my case is that my happiness function greatly depends on the happiness of the people around me, so simple greedy actions that are only taken for my benefit never tend to work out I must constantly analyze the "whole picture", as much as I can see of it anyway, and base my decisions (the good and bad analysis) on my perception of the whole picture. That often causes a lot of problems in life ... sometimes there are tradeoffs and conflicts that you have to resolve ... I have often been in situations where good/bad actions are NOT that easy to figure out ... and worst of all, you can't know the answer most of the time until after you perform an action and see the result. The time-dimension is a very hairy beast to concur so to say!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted November 9, 2002 Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 In my view 'good' is arbitrary, irregardless of one's relationship with God. What is perceived as 'good' by someone, may equally be perceived as 'not-so good' by someone else. And I'm sure God himself has his own perspective. Nothing can be purely 'good', can it? When someone does something that he deems 'good', he may inadvertently be harming someone/something else. That action is then, partially 'good', and partially 'not so good'. We can only hope that our relationship with (our own) God, can serve as a guide to help define what is in our eyes 'good'. oh yes, i forgot to mention, hopefully we will act accordingly... [ November 09, 2002, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: vava ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted November 9, 2002 Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Seaphan: The difficulty in my case is that my happiness function greatly depends on the happiness of the people around me, so simple greedy actions that are only taken for my benefit never tend to work out It sucks being a nice guy, doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted November 9, 2002 Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 quote: Nothing can be purely 'good', can it? When someone does something that he deems 'good', he may inadvertently be harming someone/something else. That action is then, partially 'good', and partially 'not so good'. By writing this, you supposed that good is not so arbitrary as this. I do not believe good is arbitrary, I believe that everything against "reason" or anything that destroy "order" is bad. Kant a rational philosoph had a way that was very logical, and I agree with him... in order to know if something is good and bad, you say "If everyone does this what will happen" Killing is bad, because if everyone does this, humanity will be destroyed, and human are an ordered evolved "matter" and the destruction of an ordonned "matter" is bad. Lying is bad, because if everyone would lie, there will be no order in this world, against order, then bad. But, sometimes we can do or not something, it may be against order, so then we must put priorities, fo example, killing human is more bad then killing a mouse for example, because humans have another order that specify us from other animals, its our capability to reasonate, this being the case, by killing a human, to brake an order that is superior then a mouse that is lacking of something that animals lack of. I would like to developpe this here, but I think my limited english could not permit me to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 9, 2002 Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 But unfortunately, Kant's theories fall apart very quickly in some cases. There have been instances in the past, where lying was the better action. There have also been instances in which killing was very justified. I have no doubt that in the future, that will hold true as well. You simply cannot say killing and lying is bad so NEVER do it! It just doesn't work like that Examples of "good" killings: self-defense, shooting a hostage-taker, assasinating a bad dictator. Examples of "good" lying: Ah there are just too many! Just think how many times you lie during the day. Most of those are good lieings I bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted November 9, 2002 Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 Sip, I do not agree with you that Kants theory fall appart in some cases, its just that it was not compleat. One of the examples given in the past to critic Kants theory was about a NAZI knocking at the dore and asking you where is your Jewish friend, and you lie to him and say no. From Kants logic that would be bad, but if we compleat his theses, by adding the level of "goodness" and "badness" then we come to an interesting conclusion. Suppose now that this same NAZI knock at your dore and ask you if you knoew where is your Jewish friend, you are on a dilema, from Kants logic you should tell him, but if you tell him there is chances that your friend will be killed and that more bad will be done then good... because killing is more destroying an order then lying, because if we use Kants logic, if everyone would lie, then there will be anarchy in the world, but if everyone would kill, there will be no human left in this world, you have to chose between Anarchy and total destruction of the human specy, the human specy destruction is worst, because you destroy an "order" that is higher in the hiearchy of level of orthers, then an "anarchy", so from that point of view, you are forced to lie this NAZI in order to make good, if you tell him the truth, the substraction of the good you will do with the bad it will bring, you will end up with "bad" This logic is the one of the Universe, first the universe started from a point, then just after the big explosion, there was only chaos, the law of physics permited all this to be ordered, billions of years laters, cells started to appear in our planes, they started with proto-cells, build up from the complex union of amino-acids, now this "order" created, this cell, has more "order" then a molecule, because not only it is a cell, but this cell is build up from many other complex things, from amino-acides, that are formed particulary from the 3 basic ellements of any organic matters, C, H, O, so now imagine the complexity of this cells, that now has the capability to multiply itself, to copy this order, thgis makes it higher in the hiearchy of orders, if you destroy order, you do bad, and its against "good" this goes on, while you move in the hiearchy, a mouse is more complex more "ordered" then a cell, because it is made of organs, that are ordered and form the mouses, those organs are made each one of those of their specific cells, and so on and one. Killing a mouse, is destrpying an order, everything against order is bad... You go on an on, untill you come to human, human are the highest in this hiearchy, that we know off, because other then our body that is complex, we have the capacity to resonate, we have the capacity to understand the order from which we are build, this makes us more "ordered" then any other thing that we know of... this is why killing human is worst then killing a mouse. From this we classify the hiearchy of orthers, and from it we decide what is good or bad, and when we are on a dillema of chosing what is good or bad, we chose based on that hierarchy. Ah, and what I bring, is just the definition of good and based on modern definition of good and bad from Rationalist philosophers... and I believe that just this conception of giid and bad really works, because we know nothing more stable then what is rational. No ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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