Derenik/Ali

[Twilight Bark]

Compartmentalization

It is a very useful tool. Even more so when you can compartmentalize and separate intimately related issues, and present them as separate "practical" micro-problems. Voila! Smoke, mirrors, hocus, pocus, we have nice, clear, solutions.

 

How on earth one could fail to see an obvious connection is something beyond my meagre imaginative powers. It must take a truly gigantic mind to see how unrelated my fictional dream was to the bed-time story told by Mr. Urguplu. Being a mere mortal, I have to live with the curse of seeing how appropriate my dream was, given the warm and cosy "oror" (lullaby) sung by our eternal friend, Mr. Urguplu.

 

[ November 01, 2002, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[THOTH]

I seem to recall that a few months back Kocharian issued a statement specifically stating that Armenian has no land claims against Turkey relating in any way to the Genocide. I searched around a bit to find this statement but have not come accross it. Is anyone else here aware of this statement or better yet if you have access to a copy please post here.

 

Let us take this oppurtunity to put Turkish fears to rest!

[Boghos]

Excerpts from Don Quijote that are quite appropriate for some of our "well intentioned" posters:

 

"To tell you the truth...you've told one of the most novel tales ... anyone in the world has ever thought of, and the way you told it, and then ended it, is something never to be seen, and never ever seen, in the course of a lifetime, though I expected nothing less from your remarkable powers of reasoning." Volume 1, Chapter 20, pg. 114

 

"And so, to sum it all up, I perceive everything I say as absolutely true, and deficient in nothing whatever, and paint it all in my mind exactly as I want it to be." Volume 1, Chapter 25, pg. 157

[Boghos]

That´s a great idea ! Winston ! Can you come up with any other cheap and useless slogans ?

 

What else should we do ? Sing lullabies ?

 

Oh, another Quijote:

 

"Ah, ah, now I understand you, Sancho! Oh yes, lots of times, and I feel it coming right now. Get me out of this pickle, because it's already pretty messy in here!" Volume 1, Chapter 49, pg. 333

[THOTH]

Boghos - not sure if your laughing with me or laughing at me? LOL

[MJ]

Speak Out- Don’t Speak Out, Speak Out- Don’t Speak Out, Speak Out- Don’t Speak Out, …

 

Speak Out! OK!

 

Let’s try to put few things in perspective, so that to put some of the observed ignorance to rest.

 

The origin of the Chechen conflict has nothing to do with their Independence struggle.

 

This has been a pure conflict within the structures of Russian organized crime and the Generalitet. All it started from the pullout of the Soviet Army from Eastern Europe, in particular Eastern Germany. It was a period of great chaos in the collapsing Soviet Union. Not surprisingly, the high ranking Russian Generals, who knew that their time had come to end, and they were going not only to lose their comfortable lifestyle in Eastern Europe, but were going to be asked to exercise early retirement, had to find a way to exercise more comfortable retirement. Additionally, there was not even adequate real estate available in Russia to host the returning from the Eastern Europe personnel.

 

So what happened. The Generals started to sell the armory of the Soviet Army on the process of the pullout. Obviously, big money was made. I don’t speak here about the sale of Kalashnikovs but tanks, helicopters, heavy artillery, etc. It is a public knowledge that the most significant part of this armory was bought by Turkey – surprise- surprise and a mystery. Another portion was bought by Croatia, Yugoslavia, etc.

 

The late General Djukaev (please correct me if I am misquoting his name – I am away from home and don’t have the materials available in the literature handy), was one of them, who subsequently became the first “President of Chechnya.” Together with his other pals of the Russian Generalitet he started an “accounting war” titled “for the Independence of Chechnya.” For all practical purposes, according to the investigators (I can refer to the well publicized book by Klebnikov – if needed I will post later the title of the book). What was done in the first period of the war? The brigades of Russian Organized crime of Chechens ethnicity, professional mercenaries, led by Djukaev [i am sure I am misquoting his name] rebelled, and his Russian pals sent a brigade of young Russian conscript of age 18 who had never smelled gun powder before, half-fed and half-armed, to fight the “bandits” out. No surprise that they were slaughtered. The desired escalation was put in motion. The public outrage in Moscow also started to build up. So, the next wave of unprofessional solders was thrown into the “battlefield,” while “sparing” the professional army. Meanwhile, the pals-Generals of our infamous Chechen President were supplying him with the necessary armory and ammunition – the very one the Russian conscripts were supposed to use against them. So the Russians got slaughtered even further. In the process, the accounting gap of the Eastern flank of Soviet Army was starting to find “explanation.” The missing Armory was missing in the “Chechen War.” Additionally, so that not to make irrelevant and ignorant statements in this forum about the “Holly Independence War for Chechnya” out of somewhere [don’t want to use inappropriate language ], one has to be minimally aware of the influence, handwriting, the legacy, the ethnic character and the spheres of interest of the Russian Organized Crime, of which Armenians are part, too, btw.

 

Obviously, all this eventually triggered significant outrage in Russia, and eventually the professional Army was forced to step up to the plate. Might have it committed atrocities? I have no doubts. Has it triggered outrage from the Chechen common people? No doubt. Was it frequently tricked to do so by the Chechens themselves? No doubt. But all these fairy tales about Chechen independence… Give me a break.

 

Are Chechens entitled to independence? Absolutely yes. Would I, for example, be happy if it happens? I would be very concerned, absolutely concerned. Why, one may ask, if from the very onset Armenians and Chechens have never crossed their paths and have noting to share or divide? Well, obviously, this is not their perception. You may ask what did Chechens have to do in the Karabagh battles? Why did Chechens, many of them the leaders of current “Independence War,” come to fight against Armenians? Not that it mattered – they eventually ran away like beheaded chickens, after all. They are better at terrorist acts in urban areas, apparently. The stupidity of Russians was constituted in not asking Armenians to solve the Chechen problem – this is a rhetoric statement, obviously.

 

To cut the chase, the Chechen tactics was a bastardization of the Armenian struggle for Independence of Karabagh and Armenia.

 

We can draw some parallels between what was going on in Armenia and Azerbaijan. In 1998, Armenians started a parliamentary movement for the unification of Karabagh with Armenia. Shortly after, Armenians in Armenia and Karabagh realized the legislative stupidity of that initiative, and rephrased it as Indpendence of Karabagh. Meanwhile, the sentiment of Independence of Armenia was gaining momentum, too. All of this was a parliamentary and Constitutional movement –admittedly an unparalleled one in the history of Western Civilization, evolving almost as if a textbook example. The response was the massacre and deportation of Armenians in Azerbaijan and the depopulation of Karabagh with the help of Russian special forces. Meanwhile, Gorbachev signed the Treaty on disarmament, and according to the quote for the Southern flank, the Soviet army in Caucasus had to be significantly reduced, i.e. moved to Siberia. The moronic leadership of Armenia of the time, instead of buying the ammunition and armory through bribing the Generals or whatever other means, was trying to persuade the Russians not to leave… Meanwhile the same was taking place in Azerbaijan and Georgia – Russian Army was pulling out. This is early 1990, if I remember correctly.

 

Fortunately enough, there were politically healthy and aware people in Armenia concerned about the future of Armenia and Karabagh. The atmosphere was very tense. You could smell invasion of Armenia any time. There was no alternative but to be ready. Some of the best suns of Armenia at the time, who had never held in their hands anything other than pen to write poetry or professional articles, or paint-brush, self-organized and started to storm in a very organized and orderly manner the remaining Soviet military bases, as well as police stations. Some minimal, frequently dysfunctional armory was acquired without hurting a single Russian solder or policeman. There was not a drop of blood shed. This operation allowed Armenians to emerge victorious in few days when the Azeris started to storm Eraskhavan – on the border of Armenia, Nakhichevan and Turkey.

The response from the Armenian side was so overwhelming and so surprising, against all military rules by unprofessional people, that the Azeri defense lines collapsed within few hours, and Armenians where about to cut Nakhichevan from Turkey. This is when the Soviet Special forces injected themselves from the Azeri side and threw Armenians back, who were about to run out of ammunition. Meanwhile, the Soviet Army detachments were dislocated on the Armenian side of the border and communicating with the ones on the other side, coordinating the operation. They could eliminate Armenians in no time. But they didn’t need it. They needed the escalation of the conflict – everything was going according to their plan.

 

I don’t have time now to go into the details, nor I feel this is the place to do it. Have to run to see some people in an hour.

 

Anyway, Armenians emerged victorious. It was so much needed. This victory was the first one after Sardarabad, which injected the necessary psychological confidence to the Armenian nation so that it reclaims that its own destiny should be in its own hands. There were only few people who understood what happened on that day – early snowy January of 1990 – Armenia became Independent. Some people declared it by acknowledging it. Most of others said these “declarations were crazy.” However, that was the rigid reality and the rest was inertia.

 

Eventually, both sides, Armenians and Azeris acquired weaponry from the Russians. Even though, by some semi-official estimates. The ratio of the acquired weaponry was 1:6 against Armenians, we know the story, now. This was a celebration of the true Armenian spirit and the Armenian aptitude towards military skills. Armenians have always been recognized as the most skilful and spirited fighters. They have frequently been hired by the Europeans to defend their Southern Flanks. If challenged, I will bring references. One may ask then, how come than Armenians have always been on the losing side of history. My answer is simple. We have always been taken ideologically – we have been very week on that ground – perhaps it is a deeply rooted internal identity conflict – we have been cut away from our roots very early in our history. After all, who needs external enemies, if one has an internal enemy in view of the Church. But this is a different topic.

 

To Thooth.

 

Dear Winston, you are good guy, and I would feel privileged to be your friend, if only your Istanbulian aristocratic genealogy may accommodate such a parochial Eastern Armenian like me (the last one is just an attempt to pull your legs). You may be a good cousin, but please don’t try to run my household.

 

As a parochial eastern Armenian, however, I have all the claims in my heart towards Turkey, and there is nothing that I say or you say, that can change it.

And to anyone who wants to make a deal with me on that subject, my answer can be phrased in a way that would be inappropriate for this forum.

 

Sorry, don’t have time to edit this material.

[Guest Fadi]

I know thats not the subject of the thread, but I though I had to write, or I will not sleep at night.

 

Land claims are not a fear for Turkey, land claims are just a reason to disgust the Armenians even more.

 

Any Armenians may have this wish over those lands, but Turkey very well know that for them it is out of question, and the the population of Turks living on those lands would not permit such land claims, Turkey did its job well, by repopulating the area, sending the Kurds more West, and Turkifying the rest. Its the way Turkey found to not only make the land claims impossible for the Armenians, but as well for the Kurds.

 

So no, land claims are not a fear for Turkey, afterall those land claims could even be their own adventages, because if ever those lands could be annexed to the republic of Armenia, the republic of Armenia will be constituated of a minority of Armenians, and a majority of Kurds, Turks etc... and if a government would be ellected democratically, it will be a Turkish, Kurdish Government, and this new republic will end up being a Turkish Armenia, this is what Turkey wants...

 

From both side they will be winers, so why any fear ? The only Fear the Turks may have is over Kars, that has been taken off from Russian Armenia, thats the most possible claim, but again, I see no possibility that this could happen.

 

I give up those land claims, not because its unjust, but because I think it is impossible, Turkey has acted intelligently to make it impossible.

 

Yes ! I know there is a contradiction in my action, because I think Turkey will never recognise the genocide, and that the recognition would be impossible, and I still do something over it, while I do nothing about the land claims, even if for me both of those demands for me are equaly impossible...

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:

To Thooth.

 

Dear Winston, you are good guy, and I would feel privileged to be your friend, if only your Istanbulian aristocratic genealogy may accommodate such a parochial Eastern Armenian like me (the last one is just an attempt to pull your legs).

---

"Cousin" (LOL) I too would gladly be considered your friend and I do not judge one by their geographic origins as many Armenians seem to do most readily. My example contrasting my different background from that of some other Armenians was just to make a point - that we are indeed not 100% the same - many of us have very different cultural backgrounds that leave us still related - but not the same. (And I certainly do see where your Eastern Armenian background makes you somewhat different in outlook then me [as both a descendent of Ottoman/Constantinoplian Armenians and as an American from birth...etc). BTW I also do have roots more eastward (Sivas/Divrik area) - and I am equally proud of them...

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:

You may be a good cousin, but please don't try to run my household.

---

I would never presume to do such and I have often counseled others in the Diaspora to let the Armenians from Armenia chart their own course (and that who are we to presume we know more of their situation then they do). But if you think me ignorant of the Chechen situation - in all its aspects - (and of matters of the Caucuses in general) you are mistaken.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:

As a parochial eastern Armenian, however, I have all the claims in my heart towards Turkey, and there is nothing that I say or you say, that can change it.

And to anyone who wants to make a deal with me on that subject, my answer can be phrased in a way that would be inappropriate for this forum.

---

Well I understand. The highlands of Anatolia are certainly the spiritual ancestral home to us all. But do you indeed see any logical solution to satisfy your desire? I don't. Much like thinking that native Americans could hope to push the white man back into the sea...

 

And are you familiar with Kocharian's statement? If so then you should understand the subtly of its phrasing.

 

And obviously I do not believe that the death and disenfranchisement of our people can be just dismissed without an accounting.

[sen_Vahan]

MJ,

 

His name was Dudaev(gorskiy evrey)

[MJ]

Thoth,

 

My desires belong to me by virtue of being my private property. Whether there is a way to satisfy them or not, I have no desire to discuss them over the Internet. I am also well aware of Kocharyan's statement.

 

Thanks for the correction, Sen_Vahan.

[THOTH]

MJ - of course - that is an entirely different matter. I am in similar situation - and at least a portion of our families holdings is pretty well documented I am led to believe (I have seen [recent] pictures for instance and there are some legal papers and such).

 

If you recall Kocharian's statemtn it implicity implieed the potential for these sort of claims IMO. And who could object - after all clearly this was legally held property illegally taken - etc. Still my optimism on these (private) property issues is only marginally less bleak. There is more (realistic) grounds for claims certainly - and these can perhaps be accomplished at a lesser level then a wholescale population movement or such - as well as have some hope for achievable compensation etc

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by hagarag:

BULLY!BULLY! for aristocratic Istambullian Armenians with roots in eastern Anatolia and a whitewashed American upbringing. CARS is too elitist. We should start a club, Winston, for members of the above with their feet still on the ground and their noses not in the air.

---

LOL - but wouldn't that act of starting a club be an elitist act in and of itself?

 

[ November 02, 2002, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[aycemnik]

To MJ

Dear MJ, could you please explain what you mean by "We have always been taken ideologically- we have been very week on that ground...".

Also, you said you can give exemples of Armenian fighters being hired by Europeans, now, i am not questioning your information, but would like to know some names for my own sake, please

[khodja]

BULLY!BULLY! for aristocratic Istambullian Armenians with roots in eastern Anatolia and a whitewashed American upbringing. CARS is too elitist. We should start a club, Winston, for members of the above with their feet still on the ground and their noses not in the air.

[MJ]

Thoth,

 

You have misunderstood me. I was talking about owning my desires not about material property.

 

Kocharian's statement was legally correct statement.

[MJ]

Dear Aycemnik (I assume it should be pronounced like Aytsemnik?),

 

I meant to say "We have always been taken over ideologically," trying to indicate that that there aren't [at least many] instances of Armenia being taken over as a result of us losing the war. Armenia has always been taken over peacefully in the result of denigration of the national consciousness and alertness.

 

It is OK to question my information but it is not necessarily wise.

 

Here is an example:

 

"Heresy, like Christianity itself, tended to move from east to west. But it was not until the eighth century that dualism first gained a foothold on the European side of the Bosphorus. The source of infection was Armenia, where a strong dualist community known as the Paulicians had existed since the fifth century. The Armenians were an aggressive, troublesome race, whose subdomination to Buzantium was at times little more than nominal. In the eighth century colonies of them were transplanted by the emperor Constantin V to Trace where, it was hoped, their warlike instincts would be part put to good use in defending the Balkan frontier. Others followed in about 975 and settled in the region of Phillippopolis. These Armenian colonists brought with them not only their military skills but also their heretical beliefs. By the end of the ninth century Paulician missionaries had already penetrated the neighboring kingdom of Bulgaria.

 

(1999) The Albigensian Crusade

Jonathan Sumpton

pp. 34-35 "

 

The only additional comment I have is that it has been an established misinterpretation or, better to say, misinformation, to claim that Paulicians have been dualists. It is their enemies - the Catholics and Orthodox theologists’ thesis, which has allowed them to fight the Paulicians more easily in front of the Emperors and their officials.

[THOTH]

MJ -

 

OK - agreed I certainly did. Having re-read your ststements again I do now also see what you are saying - and this can be be no different for any Armenian. Still - if we only let our heart determine our course of actions...well...at the very least we would have many very upset wives - no? (Don't know if that came out properly).

 

Anyway - you may know that I have been to Turkey several times and each time I look around and my heart cries...and cries and cries. At the same time I look around at the innocents/ignorants etc and think - could I "do it" - could I be a Talat or a Stalin or a Hitler and advocate/enact a "solution" affecting millions of innocents - for what? For revenge? For "justice"? For my heart? What kind of heart would I then have?

 

I often even question if for some unfathonable reason/future that Turkey were to say to Armenians - come back to your lands - we have done you great wrong and wish to make amends and even that they mean such through some epiffany or such and offer us a deal beyond our wildest expectations - if this were to occur - how many would come? (to this near barren land of great beauty but without much means for economic livelyhood [and no Big-Macs for Jugs!]) One thing is for certain - those that would - it would be their hearts alone that drove them I think. Perhaps I am wrong - and certainly I imagine (in the very optimistically abstract) that there could be circumstance where such a thing could occur and Armenians could return to that land....but I also dream of Buffalo on the plains, endless forests without pavement, clean air and water, a return to pastoral living etc - all things that too will never come to pass...

[MJ]

Thoth,

 

The Government of the Republic of Armenia is one of the most professionals ones in the region on the stage of Foreign Policy.

 

While I have no dispute with you on the subject of “revenge” or “justice” I am sort of incapable to understand the context of your contemplation on that subject – at least to the extend that my previous materials are concerned.

 

Your argument about “coming back” to our lands is an absurd and is characteristic for a person with no feeling of homeland. Sorry if this sounds harsh. I certainly don’t mean to be personal. I don’t want to go to anyone else’s country to claim “my lands.” I proudly identify myself with two countries – Armenia and USA. Don’t need a third one. And the name of “my land” is Armenia. I am sorry to see it that you, Winston, don’t get it. That is my primary problem with the Diaspora Armenians, I mean the masses – certainly there are a lot of individuals who would share my feelings and would find your understanding of things very offensive.

 

This is not about private property. Perhaps, one may find it more rewarding to have private property in Bahamas or in Bali. This is about the Homeland, which is a concept foreign to most of Diasporan Armenians. Sorry, again, if it comes harsh.

[Guest Fadi]

Thoth, I think what angered MJ, was when you said to take the opportunity to put the land claims to rest... it was more like, you can not say this, because the large majority of the diasporan Armenians have desires, here the "possibility" or how to do it, was even not refered.

 

MJ felt that you were trying to steal his wishes, by talking on the names of all Armenians.

 

His answer was more like, his wishes are his own properties, and no one has the right to take it off from him.

 

[ November 03, 2002, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[MJ]

Dear Domino,

 

I think you have no clue what you are talking about here. The reason is the same - you also are a person (no matter how good) with no Homeland. That's why these things don't come across to you (and to several others in this forum).

 

I would also add that in the other thread, which is now closed, you still had no clue what you were talking about. I strongly disapprove Gamavors' style of contemplation as well as the emotions which come with it, but on the basis of merits he was absolutely right and you were not only clueless but also out of line.

 

I felt that I had to day this.

[MJ]

I meant, "I had to say this."

[Guest Fadi]

MJ,

 

I may be clueless of what you meant, but still the ball is in your direction to explain us what you mean.

 

As for Gamavor, I made no comment on that thread, and have not attacked Gamavor for any other reasons other then his behavour of always finding a way to slander a people, thats the only reason why I answered him, if you go on that thread, you will realise that I have made no point, I have said nothing about the situation and what I think, because I did not knew how to answer, I was too ignorent about that particular subject, and if Gamavor wanted to expose something, it was to him to expose it in a manner that will worth to be read. Gamavor may some times say something worthy, but thats only a question of statistics rather then a real rational thinking.

 

So I think you made the same mistake as me in this regard, me answering you without a clue, and you telling I was clueless in that thread now closed, when I have not exposed my thoughts.

 

If what I said, I had no clue about it, I think it is for you to explain it, if you tell that I am wrong, you should at least tell me why. Is it not why a discussion is meant for ?

[MJ]

Domino,

 

You are clueless not because you are stupid and cannot understand. I believe you are smart enough person. I have already in two occasions have made my point absolutely clear – you are a person without a feeling of Homeland. That’s why you don’t understand what I am saying, and that’s why you claim that what Gamavor is has to be only seen in the context of statistics and not rational thinking. In fact, his thinking is much more rational than yours and he is much more informed and well read on fundamental issues than you Unfortunately his conduct is irrational and inappropriate. But, then, hey, many people feel the same about my conduct.

 

The problem has already been articulated by me in this thread. Armenia has always been taken over ideologically due to the weakness of the national consciousness and the identity conflicts inherent in our upbringing.

 

You are a perfect example, along with Thoth – as much as I like both of you personally, of how one can surrender his Homeland.

 

I think you may say that it is my duty to be clearer on the subject but I would say it is as clear as it gets in such issues. So that to understand it better, it has to be in your heart. Is it?

[THOTH]

MJ -

 

I don't agree with you at all concerning your position on Gamovar. And you are very mistaken if you think I don't understand the Chechen situation - not only vis a vis Russia - but concening Armenia and Armenians. I think both of you miss the points Domino and I have made entirely - we are not talking geopolitics or the merits of the "so-called" Chechen leadership - or whether Russia is in the right opposing these guys - but about the suffering of common people. This is our point- and I am just amazed that so many of you (and you in particualr) seem to misunderstand it.

 

Anyway enough of that - if you have not been able to comprehend this yet (and again - if you disagree you will have to be more specific in your claims that we are clueless rather then just stating so). But further - I cannot see how you can claim that either of us are uninformed or blind etc - based on the limited scope of our comments - which - in my case at least - were not intending to address the overall morality/rightness/appropriatness of the Russian actions or how Armenians should view the Chechens (and the threat of the Chechens) or anything of that sort.

 

As for us seemingly talking past each other concerning the Armenia/Turkey/Anatolia what have you and the "land" issue - OK - I admit I have misinterpreted/misunderstood a number of your posts (though i imagine I am not the only one - as you haven't been exactly clear - more like setting a trap - but OK). Equally so I believe you miscatagorize the points I have made. Oh - and I do have a homeland - its called the USA. I have no shame in this - the opposite in fact. I also have a heritage - and it is one I certainly identify strongly with - it is both Armenian - and in a sense Ottoman (and some other things as well) - this is becuase this is what my grandparents identified with/were - so - in a sense I have no choice.

 

Again I never disputed that the Government of Armenia and Armenians from Armenia are somehow insufficient or what have you - again - I have spoken out in the past just the opposite to Diasporan Armenians who seem to think they no better. I don't think I am at all typical of the traditional Disporan Armenian (in this regard) - regardless of your assertions. But Armenia is not my homeland - you are correct. And though I do not see that I owe any specific allegience to Armenia (as my allegience is fully with the USA - as it has to be considering my circumstance) - this does not mean that I do not have a great affinity for my close "cousins" - whose situation/circumstance I attempt to follow - who I pull for and argue for - give money to (on occasion) and have some desire to perhaps one day be more involved with...we'll see.

 

MJ - it seems to me you are not satisfied with and find problems with nearly everyone's views and circumstance. I sometimes must question why such negativity. Sure - you are a smart guy - and in general have a very worthwhile and supportable perspective - but I think this attack mode of yours and the seeming need to put people down is a real problem with you. This combined with a seeming acceptance of some of our most reactionary elements really gives me cause to wonder about you sometime.

[THOTH]

MJ -

 

One last thing. I do understand the concept of the current Republic of Armenian as the "Homeland" for all Armenians. I do understand what it is you claim. This concept is not beyond me. I am and have always been very proud of this fact. It means quite a lot (in so many ways) that there is a nation called Armenia. And I do think it is the obligations - to some degree or another - of all Armenians - to make it work - or at least to support this nation in some way.