There are no Kurds in Turkey

[aurguplu]

ok steve,

alright, i do not live in a city where we experience everyday terror. we experience everyweek terror (now english is one new word richer ). when i was a child, we did experience everyday terror: our house was machine-gunned, my dad's car was planted a bomb, my parents' friends were killed by extreme left or extreme right, i had to choose the german school instead of galatasaray (the french "lycée imperiale") although i had won the exams, and both my grandfather as well as my father were its graduates, the terror was one of the main reasons why my parents divorced (my mother couldn't handle it any longer) etc. etc. so don't tell me about everyday terror. diyarbakır and muş were until very recently what istanbul was like in the 1970s, in which we grew up.

i have one very simple attitude toward terrorists: treat them with their own medicine. see one, kill one. i do not care about their opinions, grievances, etc. if they kill INNOCENT people as opposed to the sources of their grievances. for some reason it is always the common people who keep dying, and the generals, politicians etc., rarely if ever foot the bill (and don't you tell me about the protection they might have, we had protection, nothing is easier to circumvent it).

and also think about the plight of the soldiers who cut the heads: these are boys of 18-early 20s who in the prime of their youth are sent to die off in mountains in the dead of the winter. they have a higher death rate than the guerillas because they are not local and usually less well trained than the guerillas, and they also experience what they see as the locals' treachery: they are brainwashed that there are no kurds and that no-one is being oppressed in turkey, and that therefore all dissent is invariably separatist.

would i like to have someone like that as a neighbour? well, no. but i have a lot of friends who have fought in the southeast, i myself could have been sent were it not for my kidneys (people from my platoon were), and if there were such a problem again in turkey, then i would probably go there to fight (at least i would not run away).

now i would of course tell you that i would not do things like that, but the thing is right now i am in a heated, ventilated office room with no reason to suppose that a gun is being pointed at me right now, and i have no fears that underneath the floor i am walking there are mines. put me at the slope of an icy mountain in the southeast under these circumstances with one bottle (a quarter litre) of water for one week, make me march 40-50 kms a day on average with 33 kgs of equipment that i have to drag, make me see my buddies get shot, blown up, etc. by the enemy that i can't even see, do all that for four months, and i might well change, so might you. this has got nothing to do with any inherent barbarity, but with the circumstances you are in.

i know that the pictures are reminiscent of the armenian genocide - and i hate it. but in the present case we know that 1) the heads were very probably not innocent, and 2) they were supported in their equally barbaric acts (pictures of which are rarely shown in western media) by the eu until very recently which the eu itself had not denied while they were suppotring them.

put yourself into my shoes. what would you do?

[khodja]

MJ,

 

The more you put yourself in the gutter by your insults of me, the more you expose the negative parts of your character. As an Armenian, I did not know the meaning of "khiyar." You seem to be an inteeligent man, but by your comments show your true colors. Must I say typical behavior for a conservative zealot. Same kind of "Caca" that comes out of the mouths of the prominent conservatives of your US region.

[MJ]

Hagarak,

 

I shoud say endhagarage.

[khodja]

Martin J,

 

Do you have a Poghos Poghosyan video replay in store for me? Our dear Armenian national President most probably did not know what his guards were doing. If you were the Armenian President, would people like me there disappear?

[MJ]

No. You are of zero significance. People like you in Armenia would be treated with sympathy on the grounds of their metal condition.

[khodja]

The fact that I have not resorted to violence

after what these conservative dogs did to me and my family attests to my mental stability. You are just too blindly reactionary to understand. Quite understood, since you were nurtured under the auspices of the Armenian church hierarchy. Only Armenian Protestant Ministers and a few Armenian Catholic clergy ever participated in the US civil rights movement.

[MJ]

Hagarag,

 

Endhagarage. You are nuts, sonny, therefore, this would be the last time you get a reply from me.

[khodja]

Martin,

 

From your limited perspective, I am nuts, because you have not walked in my shoes.

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ:
I would propose to move the materials not related to the Kurds in Turkey to another thread. What do you say?

---

Fine by me. BTW - I have been away for a bit - and likely will for a while longer - so sorry no responses. Please cary on without me (though try to be nice)...

[ThornyRose]

quote

Originally posted by MJ:I think you are totally misinformed (given my arguments about the “haves” and “have nots” and the media, it is not surprising). We are not removing Taliban for their grave abuses. We have never recognized them as a legitimate government.

Well, I shouldn’t have to think too hard when people say things like this:

quote

Originally posted by MJ:Now it is war, and we are after their oppressors – the source of their misery.

I wasn’t saying that this (removing Taliban for grave abuses) is what is declared to be the intention of the U.S. government, in Turkish media (although I am not aware of what kind of speeches speechifiers happen to deliver). I’m talking about what I hear (read, “read”) Americans saying around (on forums). I'm sure you don't mean to imply that, so why do the "oppressors" and the "we're onto them"?

quote

Originally posted by MJ:We are not in retaliation business. We are in prevention business there. We are destroying the regime, which openly harbors and cultivates international terrorism, and refuse to hand over the well recognized terrorists, which allocates all the logistic and other means for training terrorists, etc.

Other than the “openly” there, the same can be said of Belgium and Germany, to an extent (and certainly Greece and Syria).

quote

Originally posted by MJ:Where should the Americans be centered at? At Turkey? Armenia? France? Of coarse they are America centered. Aren’t you Turkey centered? If you are trying to say that most of the Americans don’t know much about other countries or nations, you may be right. But who cares? The government knows what needs to be known. And it knows more than any other government does. How do you know that only few follow or understand these operations? Where do you take this information from? Why such generalizations from Thorny? I meet a lot of people on a daily basis. I go with different people for dinner almost every evening of the week. I talk to people around, and exchange views, etc. I see overwhelming interest/concern, I see overwhelming desire to understand the core of the problem, I see the matter being publicized on a non-stop basis, I see people being very thoughtful, truthful, honest. Where do you get your such impressions from?

Where did I get my impressions from? Well, obviously, MJ, I’ve had quite some contact with Americans and Canadians (though haven’t come around to seeing just what is supposed to make them different) in my younger years (wish I had now, so I could learn more with my relatively more developed sense), both fellow students and teachers. Of course, compared to your experience, it is “an ear on the camel” (size-/quantity-wise - as we say in Turkish), but I’m also thinking that you perhaps have a very “select” group to interact with (quality-wise) as far as the dinners go. I’m not saying the people I interacted with were hicks or what have you, either. And, well, running in parallel with Americans’ not knowing much about other countries and nations, I have found quite a significant portion of the population of my school to have the inability to understand other cultures or to not possess the desire to learn about them (so it is not just about lack of exposure). Most were too indifferent or immersed in their “embassy-happy-hour” isolation and only so-so in their attitude. Exceptions were often too extreme cases and were of those who had made a living style out of it (had one teacher who had taught in Iran, Egypt, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh [probably in that order]).

And I disagree that the government’s knowing all there is to know does it all. The ordinary citizen’s best involvement in his/her government is that which comes along with making the right choices, but how can this be true with foreign policy (especially in a country so dominating in almost everything) if there is a lack of interest there? It is true that the imbedded elements within the structure of the state will be resistant to change (as seen in the case of the Armenian Americans who are now disappointed in Bush), but the people SHOULD be able to make a difference and give it a bit of a shape.

I never find the level of interest here enough, either. That said, I’m not saying being America-centered (or being centered on one’s country) is not understandable, given there are Turks who are America-centered-wannabes, but I do think it is not just an overwhelming generalization when it comes to Americans. (And generalizing is not a bad thing, is it? We do use generalizations when trying to explain the reasons behind Turkish knee-jerks to their country’s policies, especially on this forum where the Armenian Genocide is a concern. Obviously, not all Turks are as defensive, but use of generalizations gets our points through.)

[ThornyRose]

And my parents experienced those years and another set a decade before... My father, he tells us, was the only one in his school (law in the University of Ankara) who wasn’t involved in such stuff, to any degree – and so his friends used to ask him if he was working for the police. “Not leftist, not rightist? Police?” He, too, had his car molested. My uncle and aunt also had a difficult time going to school when they were just kids – my grandparents would be so anxious for them. My uncle also put up with the similar – school was shut for about a semester, and then they had to compress (so to speak) the year to graduate the kids on time, thus screwing a couple of summer vacations or so. You hear the similar everywhere – from a teacher that told us about how sick and tired he had got of having someone barge into class in the middle of the lecture and call out everyone to a “forum” (he was telling us why he hated having people late to class) to another friend’s father who would be at a faculty meeting and then students would come and shoo them out and even threaten them... Nasty.

[MJ]

Hello Thorny,

 

 

You are working too hard to find contradictions, here, Thorny. Removing their oppressors is not our goal, as I have said before. However, it is the outcome of our operations. Our goal is Al-Qaida, as well as giving any other government a signal that this is what awaits them, if they harbor, cultivate and protect terrorists.

 

I wasn’t saying that this (removing Taliban for grave abuses) is what is declared to be the intention of the U.S. government, in Turkish media (although I am not aware of what kind of speeches speechifiers happen to deliver). I’m talking about what I hear (read, “read” Americans saying around (on forums). I'm sure you don't mean to imply that, so why do the "oppressors" and the "we're onto them"?

 

But the fact of the matter is that the ones “in the forums” don’t make policy.

 

 

Other than the “openly” there, the same can be said of Belgium and Germany, to an extent (and certainly Greece and Syria).

 

I don’t think Germany and Belgium openly harbor, cultivate or protect terrorists. IF they do, they would be held responsible, I think. However, the fact is that Syria does. Don’t know of Greece as of lately. I expect that they would pay another look at their policies in the near future.

 

 

Where did I get my impressions from? Well, obviously, MJ, I’ve had quite some contact with Americans and Canadians (though haven’t come around to seeing just what is supposed to make them different) in my younger years (wish I had now, so I could learn more with my relatively more developed sense), both fellow students and teachers. Of course, compared to your experience, it is “an ear on the camel” (size-/quantity-wise - as we say in Turkish), but I’m also thinking that you perhaps have a very “select” group to interact with (quality-wise) as far as the dinners go. I’m not saying the people I interacted with were hicks or what have you, either. And, well, running in parallel with Americans’ not knowing much about other countries and nations, I have found quite a significant portion of the population of my school to have the inability to understand other cultures or to not possess the desire to learn about them (so it is not just about lack of exposure). Most were too indifferent or immersed in their “embassy-happy-hour” isolation and only so-so in their attitude. Exceptions were often too extreme cases and were of those who had made a living style out of it (had one teacher who had taught in Iran, Egypt, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh [probably in that order]).

 

This is also typical of all people. The “common” people don’t know much about others. It may be more so in the case of Americans, and they recognize it. It is natural in some ways – America is/(has historically been) separated from the rest of the world by two oceans. And less they know about others, more they think that they are the “best culture” or represent “the chosen.”

 

 

And I disagree that the government’s knowing all there is to know does it all. The ordinary citizen’s best involvement in his/her government is that which comes along with making the right choices, but how can this be true with foreign policy (especially in a country so dominating in almost everything) if there is a lack of interest there? It is true that the imbedded elements within the structure of the state will be resistant to change (as seen in the case of the Armenian Americans who are now disappointed in Bush), but the people SHOULD be able to make a difference and give it a bit of a shape.

 

 

Thorny, the American reality provides vehicles for ordinary people to become part of the governing structures. It is a true democracy. Ideally, the government consists of professionals. They should know what they are supposed to know about the world. Foreign policy is not something for the “ordinary people” to decide. Foreign policy in every country is elitist. However, the principles of foreign policy are resulted from the culture of the “common people.” Therefore the participation of “ordinary people” is not based on their “knowledge” but the cultural landscape they establish.

 

I never find the level of interest here enough, either. That said, I’m not saying being America-centered (or being centered on one’s country) is not understandable, given there are Turks who are America-centered-wannabes, but I do think it is not just an overwhelming generalization when it comes to Americans. (And generalizing is not a bad thing, is it? We do use generalizations when trying to explain the reasons behind Turkish knee-jerks to their country’s policies, especially on this forum where the Armenian Genocide is a concern. Obviously, not all Turks are as defensive, but use of generalizations gets our points through.)

 

The think is, America is more than a country. It is a mentality. Therefore, anyone may be American. As to generalizations, I am aware of many undue generalizations in this forum, but I feel you should be above it.

[ThornyRose]

MJ, undue generalizations, me?

I'm not talking about subjective stuff - I'm talking about short-cuts to better put things in perspective.

And I'm talking about young Turks who are Americans with corn-flakes, Caterpillar boots, music, whatever, minus any compassion for the land they live on and its people - or any desire to learn about themselves first before they start dreaming about visiting New York, Disney Land, whatever.

As for "being American," well, being anything can have the same said about itself, that it is more than belonging to a country, it is a mentality, a life-style, what have you...