Turkish barbarism

[gamavor]

The following are excerpts from the book "The murder of a nation" by Arnold Toynbee

 

 

"The thousand Armenian houses in the town

are being emptied of furniture by the police one after the other....and a crowd of Turkish women and children follow the police about like a lot of vultures, and seize anything they can lay their hands on; and when the more valuable things are carried out of a house by the police, they rush in and take the balance. I see this performance every day with my own eyes. I suppose it will take several weeks to empty all the houses, and then the Armenian shops and stores will be cleared out"

 

"At the mountain village of Geben", for instance the women were at the wash-tub, and were compelled to leave their wet clothes in the water and take the road bare footed and half-clad, just as they were. In some cases they were able to carry part of their scanty household furniture or implements of agriculture, but for the most part they were neither to carry anything nor to sell it, even where there was time to do so."

 

"The weeping and wailing of the women and children was most heartrendering. Some of these people were from wealthy and refined circles, some were accustomed to luxury adn ease. There were clergymen, merchants, bankers, lawyers, mechanics, tailors, and men from every walk of life. The whole Mohammedan population knew that these people were to be their prey from the beginning, and they were treated as animals."

 

To be continued...

[gamavor]

"All the morning the ox-carts creaked out of the town, laden with woman and children, and here adn there aman who had escaped the previous deportations. The women and girls all wore the Turkish costume, that their faces might not be exposed to the gaze of drivers and gednarmes a brutal lot of men brought in from other regions....

The panic in the city was terrible. The people felt that the Government was determined to exterminate the Armenian race, and they were powerless to resist. The people were sure that the men were being killed and the momen kidnapped. Many of the convicts in the prisons had been released, and the mountains around were filed of bands of ourlaws....

Most of the Armenians in the district were absolutely hopeless. Many said it was worse than a massacre. No one knew what was coming, but all felt that it was the end. Even the pastors and leaders began to doubt even the existence of God. Under the severe strain many individuals became demented, some of them permanently."

 

"Women with little children in their arms, or in the last days of pregnancy, were driven along under his whip like cattle. Three different cases came under my knowledge where the woman was delivered on the road, and because her brutal driver hurried her along she died or hemorrhage. Some women became so completely worn out and helpless that they left, their infants beside the road."

 

"Six agonized mothers, passing through Konieh by this railway to an unknown destination, entrusted their little children to the Armenian families in the city in order to save them alive; but the local authorities tore them away from the Armenians adn placed them in Moslem hands."

 

"At one place the commander of gendarmerie openly told the men to whom he consigned a large company, that they were at libery to do what they chose with the women and girls."

"The Armenians deported from a certain town," says another witness who saw them pass," could not be recognized as a result of their twelve days march.... Even in this deplorable state rapes adn violent acts are every day occurrences."

"The women believed that they were going to worse than death, and many carried poison in their pockets to use if necessary. Some carried picks adn shovels to bury those they knew would die by the wayside."

 

To be continued...

[timucin]

With all due respect, is not this the history section? Or, is there confusion about the present meaning of what history is supposed to be, as opposed to the 19th century practice of what we today call creative writing? At any rate, as novel writing, this is very good, as history writing nothing,it is nothing to be taken seriously.

 

t.

[gamavor]

This is only the begining. After finishing the book I will continue with other "turkish contributions" to the human civilization. Most of them were authored by people who haven't been exposed to "german" education. Crimes against humanity since 12th century to present day.

 

You are a turk right, and I'm sure you feel good! Have a nice reading.

[gamavor]

"Forty-five men and women were taken a short distance from the village into the valley. The women were first outraged by the officers of the gendarmerie, and then turned over to the gendarmes to dispose of. According to this witness, a child was killed by having its brains beaten out on a rock. The men were all killed, and not a single person survived out of this group of forty-five."

"The forced exodus of the last part of the Armenian population from a certain district took place on June 1st, 1915. All the villages, as well as three-quarters of the town, had already been evacuated. An escort of fifteen gendarmes followed the third convoy, which included 4,000 to 5,000 persons. The prefect of the city had wished them a pleasent journey. But at a few hours distance from the town, caravan was surrounded by bands of a brigand-tribe, and by a mob of Turkish peasants armed with guns, axes and clubs. They first began plundering their victims, searching carefully even the very young children. The gendarmes sold to the Turkish peasanst what they could not carry away with them. After they had taken even the food of these unhappy people, the massacre, of the males began, including two priests, one of whom was ninety. In six or sevan days all males above fifteen years of age had been murdered. It was the beginning of the end. People on horse-back raised the veils of the women, and carried of the pretty ones."

 

To be continued...

[gamavor]

"She tells how the crime began with the hanging of the Bishop and seven other notables, and the wholesale slaughter in a wood of about eighty men, after they had been imprisoned and flogged in prison. "The rest of the population was sent off in three batches; I was among the third batch. My husband died eight years ago, leaving me and my mother and my eight-year old daughter extensive possesions, so that we were living in comfort. Since mobilization, an Ottoman commandant has been living in my house free of rent. He told me not to go, but I felt I must share the fate of my people. I took three horses with me, loaded with provisions. My daughter had some five-lira pieces round her neck, and I carried some twenty liras and four diamond rings on my person. All else that we had was left behind. Our party left on June 1st (old style), fifteen gendarmes going with us."

Then she describes, detail for detail the surprise attack on the road, the killing of the two priests and of every male over fifteen years of age. Their horses, their valuables, their food all were taken."Very many women adn girls were carried off to the mountains, among them my sister, whose one-year-old baby they threw away. A Turk picked it up and carried it off, I know not where. My mother walked till she could walk no further, and dropped by the roadside, on a mountain top. We found on the road many who had been in the previous batches; some women were among the killed, with their husbands and sons. We also came across some old people and their infants, still alive but in a pitiful condition, having shouted their voices away."

 

"On the way," says this other testimony, "we constantly, met murdered men and youths, all covered with blood. There were also women and girls killed near their husbands or sons. On the heights of the mountains and in the depths of the valleys numbers of old men and babies were lying on the ground."

 

"Many persons were obliged to start off on foot without funds and with what they could gather up from their homes and carry on their backs. Such persons naturally soon became so weak that they fell behind and were bayoneted and thrown into the river, and their bodies floated down to the sea, or lodged in the shallow river on rocks, where they remained for ten or twelve days and putrefied."

 

"We were not allowed to sleep at night in the villages," says the Armenian lady, "but lay down outside. Under cover of the night indescribable deeds were committed by the gendarmes, brigands and villagers. Many of us died from hunger and strokes of apoplexy. Others were left by the roadside, too feeble to go on." The parallel account confirms her once more in almost identical words and adds that "the people found themselves in the necessity of eating grass."

 

To be continued....

[MJ]

Pigeti,

 

With all due respect, which part of the materials here don't sound truthful?

[gamavor]

"The worst and most unimaginable horrors", the lady continues, "were reserved for us at the banks of the (Western) Euphrates (Kara Su) and Erzindjan plain. The mutilated bodies of women, girls and little children made everybody shudder. The brigands were doing all sorts of awful deeds to the women adn girls that were with us, whose cries went up to heaven. At the Euphrates, the brigands and gendarmes threw into the river all the remaining children under fifteen years old. Those who could swim were-shot down as they struggled in the water."

 

"In four provinces", says this letter, "the local authorities gave facilities to those condemned to deportation-five or ten days' grace, permission to execute a partial sale of their property, and the privilege of hiring a cart between several families; but, at the end of several days, the carters left them on the road adn returned to town. The caravans thus formed used to meet on the morrow of sometimes several days after their start, with bands of brigands, or else with Moslem peasants who plundered them of everything. The bands fraternized with the gendarmes, and killed the few men or boys included in the caravans. They carried the women, girls and children leaving only the old women, who were driven along by the gendarmes with blows of the whip and died of hunger on the road. A first-hand witness tells us, how the women deported from a certain province were left, after several days, in the plain of Kharpout, where they all died of starvation (fifty or sixty a day): and the authorities have merely sent a few people to bury them, so as not to endanger the health of the Moslem population."

 

"The caravans of women and children are exposed in front of the Government buildings in every town or village where they pass, in order that the Moslem may take their choice."

 

"The caravan despatched from (the actual town from which the lady was deported whose narrative we have quoted above) was thinned out in this fashion, and the women and children who remained over were thrown into the Euphrates at the place called Kemakh-Boghazi, just outside Erzindjan".

 

To be continued....

[timucin]

Who said I was reading them? As soon as I realized I was not dealing with a serious historical account, I gave up looking at these posts. By the way, it seems like you are the one who is really enjoying them in a sense that is actually not easily comprehendible by, well, relatively normal human beings. The early modern pseudo-historical writing is full of accounts like this one; you will be busy for a while. Have fun!

 

t.

[gamavor]

It’s not easy to be a turk, Isn't it. Especially "educated" one. The material above and the rest of the book is intended not only for turks but for the general public. I will do my best (I'm pretty good in that) to invite as much as possible people (mostly non-Armenians) in order to educate them about Turkish barbarism. At the end I will try (only try) to prove, that turkish race is genetically mistaken. And the best prove for that is the denial of the obvious, even by "educated, cultured, progressive, civilized, Europeanized, turks".

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by timucin:
With all due respect, is not this the history section? Or, is there confusion about the present meaning of what history is supposed to be, as opposed to the 19th century practice of what we today call creative writing? At any rate, as novel writing, this is very good, as history writing nothing,it is nothing to be taken seriously.

t.

---

Timucin,

I understand why you are not comfortable with this type of writing. And granted, on its own, it could easily be taken for a sensationalised account. However such observations were reported by diverse (non-colaborative) sources and all tell very similar stories - such that I beleive they cannot be discouted just based on their narrative style. And again, as MJ has asked - do you indeed dispute the truth of these observations?

While such accounts may never provide answers to the causations and development of the overall sitation in Anatolia before/during the war - I think they are invaluable accounts that document the methods and environment of the crimes commited against the Armenians. And again I question your motivation for rejecting such out of hand.

Winston.

[ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[elovna]

I changed my mind

 

[ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: Aghtchik ]

[gamavor]

"Among those with whom I have talked were three sisters. They had been educated at-and spoke excellent English. They said their family was the richest in - and numbered twenty-five when they left, but there were now only fourteen survivors. The other eleven, including the husband of one of them and their old grandmother, had been butchered before their eyes by the Kurds. The oldest male survivor of the family was eight years of age. When they left -, they had money, horses and personal effects, but they had been robbed of everything, including even their clothing. They said some of them had been left absolutely naked, and others with only a single garment, and when they reached a village their gendarmes obtained clothes for them from some of the native women."

 

"Another girl with whom I talked is the daughter of the Protestant pastor of - She said every member of her family with her had been killed, and she was left entirely alone. These and some other are a few survivors of the better class of people who have been exiled. They are being detained in an abandoned school-house just outside of the town and no one is allowed to enter it. They said they practically were in prison, although they were allowed to go to a spring just outside the building. It was there I happened to see them. All the others are camped in a large open field with no protection at all from sun."

 

"The condition of these people indicates the fate of those who have left and are, about to leave from here. I believe nothing has been heard from any of them as yet, and probably very little will be heard. The system that is being followed seems to be to have bands of Kurds awaiting them on the road to kill the men especially and incidentally some of the others. The entire movement seems to be the most thoroughly organized and effective massacre this country has ever seen."

 

To be continued...

[gamavor]

"If," the resident writes," it were simply a matter of being obliged to leave here to go somewhere else, it would not be so bad, but everybody knows it is a case of going to one's death. If there was any doubt about it, it has been removed by the arrival of a number of parties, aggregating several thousand people, from Erzeroum and Erzindjan.

I have visited their encampment a number of times and talked with some of the people. The are, almost without exception, ragged, filthy, hungry and Ill. That is not surprising in view of the fact that they have been on the road for nearly two months, with no change of clothing, no chance to wash, no shelter, and little to eat. The Government has been giving them some scanty rations here. I watched them one time when their food was brought. Wild animals could not be worse. The mashed upon the guards who carried the food and the guards beat them back with clubs, hitting hard enough to kill them sometimes. To watch them one could hardly believe that these people were human beings."

 

"As one walks through the camp, mothers, offer their children and beg one to take them. In fact, the Turks have been taking their choice of these children and girls for slaves, or worse. In fact, they have even had their doctors there to examine the more likely girls and thus secure the best ones."

 

"There are very few men among them, as most of them have been killed on the road. All tell the same story of having been attacked and robbed by the Kurds. Most of them were attacked over and over again, and a great many of them , especially the men were killed. Women and children were also killed. Many died, or course, from sickness amid exhaustion on the way, and there have been deaths each day that have been here. Several different parties have arrived and, after remaining a day or two, have been pushed on with no apparent destination. Those who have reached here are only a small portion, however of those who started. By continuing to drive thesse people on in this way it will be possible to dispose of all of them in a comparatively short time."

 

To be continued....

 

[ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: gamavor ]

[gamavor]

"The hideous rumor of their pilgrmage had preceded their arrival, and "at first", he says," these stories were not given much credence; but as many of the refugees are now arriving in Aleppo, no doubt any longer remains of the truth of the matter. On August 2nd, about eight hundred middle - aged and old women, accompanied by children under the age of ten years, arrived afoot from Diyarbekir, after forty-five days en route, and in the most pitiable condition imaginable. They report the taking of all the young women adn girls by the Kurds, the pillagings even of the last bit of money and other belongings, of starvation, of privation, and hardship of every description. Their deplorable condition bears out their statements in every detail.

"I am informed that 4,500 persons were sent from Sughurt to Ras-el-Ain, over 2,000 from Mezereh to Diyarbekir, and that all the cities of Bitlis, Mardin, Mosul, Severek, Malatia, Besneh, etc., have been depopulated of Armenians, the men and boys, and many of the women killed, and the balance is scattered throughout the country. If this is true, of which there is little doubt, even the latter must naturally die of fatigue, hunger and disease. The Governor of Der-el-Zor, who is now at Aleppo, says there are 15,000 Armenians in the city. Children are frequently sold to prevent starvation, as the Government furnishes practically no subsistence."

"At Der-el-Zor, a large town in the desert, about six days drive from Aleppo, we saw a big Khan, all the rooms, the roof and the verandas of which were crowded with Armenians; composed mostly of women and children, with few old men. They had slept on their blankets wherever they could find any shade."

"For these mountaineers the desert climate is terrible. On the next day I reached a large Armenian camp of goat-skin tents, but most of the unfortunate people were sleeping out in the sun on the burning sands. The turks had given them a day's rest on account of the lagge number of sick. It was evident from their clothing that these people had been well-to-do; they were natives of Geben, another village near Zeitoun,and were led by their religious head. It was a daily occurance for five or six of the children of these people to die by the wayside. The were just burying a young woman, the mother of a little girl nine years of age, and they besought me to take this little girl with me."

"Those who have no experience of the desert cannot picture to themselves the sufferings entailed by such a journey- a hilly dessert without shade marching over rough and rugged rocks, unable to satisfy one's scorching thirst from the muddy waters of the Euphrates, which winds its course along in close proximity."

"On the next day I met another camp of these Zeitoun Armenians. There were the same indescribable sufferings, the same accounts of misery - 'Why do they not kill us once for all?' asked they. 'For days we have no water to drink, and our children are crying for water. At night the Arabs attack us; they steal our bedding, our clothes that we have been able to get together; they carry away by force our girls and outrage our women. If any of us are unable to walk the convoy of gendarmes beat us. Some of our women threw themselves down from the rocks into the Euphrates in order to save their honor - some of these with their infants in their arms."

 

To be continued...

[Juggernaut]

I think its quite interesting how the Turkic peoples (including the Mongols) despite having been in contact with the most advanced civilisations at certain times (Arabs, Chinese, Europeans etc.) have remained culturally backward. They have relied on savaging other cultures in order to inrich theirs (unsuccessfully). Mind you a true Turk would have Mongoloid eyes, most of the inhabitants of modern day Turkey do not have Mongoloid eyes (despite the fact that Mongoloid eyes are dominant when it comes to genetics), which only means theirs is a mongrel race.

[ThornyRose]

On some of the remarks regarding Turks…

I often encounter such remarks as “Mongoloid Turks have no history of their own,” “Turks have no culture, they only steal and present the spoils yak yak yak,” etc., some of them going all the way down to claiming there is no such thing as a Turkish language but just a ramshackle admixture of Persian and Arabic (with some weird and unknown mortar to hold together this Ottoman Turkish in an order that runs backwards – ho ho ho!).
Not only are these remarks the products of spouting hot air but they also hurt more than the Turks.
The Seljuks and Ottomans DID contribute much to the Islamic realm – be this in the arts, sciences, or other. (I will have to limit the scope to these two, for Turkish presence means more than just these – you see Turkish presence in Central Asia, and even today’s Beijing traces to Turkic rulers – Hanbalik being its name at the time. I do not know for certain if this site was established by these very rulers [in the sense that I am/was suspicious of the source], though I elect it is quite likely.)
That tourists come to Turkey to visit Christian monuments and not those of our Islamic ( ) heritage is no fault of our ancestors’ – in fact, it is the fault of the world for not being curious about Muslim cultures (how many people visit the monuments of the Moors when they go to Spain if Turkey is a barbaric country no-one wants to visit?). There certainly are some people, mostly from Muslim countries, who do pay more attention to Konya than they do to the Aegaean coast, but they are a minority. This said, Turkish heritage is not something to be belittled, even thus. Sure, not too many people in the West can name too many scholars (and their works) bred under the wings of Turkish (or Islamic) sovereignty – and, likewise, not too many people can do so for the Chinese. Moreover, nobody tries to discount Chinese culture and heritage for less than it is despite China’s policies with Tibet and Xinjiang. Point taken?

As for why I said that such remarks hurt more than just Turks…
As you may know, I am Circassian in ethnicity.
We do not have monuments that are worthy of note (to the best of my knowledge) – not even “stolen” ones.
Neither did my ancestors hold onto their faith like the Armenians did for years under many rulers – they were mostly converted to Islam from Orthodox Christianity (but perhaps also in part because religion wasn’t always taken that seriously; I read somewhere in a webpage on Abkhazia that said, “The Abkhazians today are X% Muslim, Y% Christian, and 100% pagan”).
I do not know of more than a couple of kingdoms or some such states’ existences, unlike the case you have with the Mongoloid and savage Turks – and we are 100% Caucasian straight from the Caucasus - #1…
I don’t know of any Circassian “contributions to mankind”… Well, at least, in the same way Turks are at the very least known for yoghurt and the coffee whose preparation they refined, we Circassians are known for our medicine (alas! not even that!)… And Circassians haven’t produced scientists and scholars to compete with the record of that demonic race that ranges from Alpharabius to Cahit Arf in modern times…
Sniff!
Boo hoo hwaaaaa hwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa hwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! BWAAAAAAAAAAA! Kick me kick me! Even barbarian Mongoloid Turks do better than us beautiful-nice Caucasoid horse-back riders!! BWAAA-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A!
Now, I doubt that there are too many Armenians with their bolts and screws together who can find an excuse to talk about Circassians in the same manner any more than they can find such for the Masai… (Or will I be surprised?)

[bellthecat]

I think it is quite interesting how certain Armenians (you?) despite having been in contact with the most advanced civilisation in SE Asia (Australia) have remained culturally backward. They have relied on savaging other cultures in order to maintain their identity. Maybe a one way ticket to Nauru would do you good, certainly it would do Australia good.

[khodja]

Sorry to have to burst your bubble, but Armenians have a good number of Asian genes also from the Mamikonians and the Mongols, from both legal and illegal sexual relations, as many Mongol leaders embraced Armenian Christianity and assimilated into our nation. A cross section of Armenians will reveal some with the characteristic Asian eye structure as well. Now how many of you Armenian chauvinists will attack this statement vehemently?

[gamavor]

Speak about yourselve Khodja. Don't mess with Armenians. I'm personaly very tolerant towards half/armenians, 1/4 armenians, 1/68,

Armenians, and sadly somethimes 0% Armenians are more Armenians than, Khodjas, Mamkuns, Sergeevich and else "sheltered" Armenians.

[khodja]

I would much prefer to MESS with TEXAS. How you folks vanquished that honorable war hero is beyond me.

[khodja]

Gamavor.

 

I agree. I am 88% Armenian as far as my heritage goes and by my interst in things Armenian, but in terms of mentality I am almost 0% Armenian.

[MJ]

Khodja,

 

You have no idea about the Armenian mentality. And for heaven's sake, don't start here the argument, which has been your forte in the ArmenianCafe.

[khodja]

Badveli Martin,

 

I have been an officer in a national Armenian organization and have been employed by an Armenian organization. I was married to an Armenain. My ancestors are biographied in many Armenians histories. I know very well the Armenian mentality. That is why I revere Ara Baliozian. To me he is our secular savior.

[MJ]

Fine, but please take into consideration my appeal to you.