tigran the great in turkish tv

[aurguplu]

a documentary about nemrut dağı in eastern turkey referred to tigran the great and the armenian kingdom, mentioning that the once-powerful armenian kingdom once ruled that part of the country. the program was broadcast during the day (and not 04.00 a.m., for instance) at cnn turk, a channel with a very high rating.

 

this is the first time i hear the word "armenian" in turkish tv outside the contexts of genocide claims, nagorno karabagh etc., and definitely the first time ever i hear "tigran the great" and "armenian kingdom" in a turkish tv channel.

 

also, redgate's book "the armenians" is being translated into turkish. i saw the english original in a bookshop in turkey. i asked whether books concerning "the well-known issue" could also get into turkey, the shop keeper, whom i knew from before, said that there was no more any difficulty in getting that sort of stuff into turkey.

 

it looks like attitudes are changing after all, albeit a bit slowly.

 

comments?

[THOTH]

Good to hear. A small step in some sense certainaly - but also a large (and long overdue one) nonetheless. Still, I wonder how this program was recieved and if it and the wider availability of such information (books & television) will really make a dent considering the years of indoctrination against and continued villification and marginalization of Armenians in the popular Turkish media and in schoolbooks and such...

 

[ May 13, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[gamavor]

Moshe,

 

Do you know what is very symptomatic about Jews in general. Whenever and wherever there were someone who was in one or other way "great", Jews always, all the time will start claiming that he/she is a Jew. This is very interesting phenomenon and it happened to very many Armenians. The composer Khachaturian is a good (recent)example. This is kind of Jewish decease. Jewish consciousness cannot accept the fact the one might be great unless, of course he is a Jew.

 

Did I tell you, go to Hell today? If not, : here:

"GO TO HELL!"

[khodja]

A first step for Turkey to enter the next stage of it's development as a nation. In the US we have never denied that the Native Americans once held this land, not have the British ever denied that the ancestors of the Welsh and other Celts once held that land. Now, will the Armenians EVER be able to come to terms with the fact that Tigran was a Jew?

[Harut]

did you test his genes too?

[khodja]

Ali,

 

I am trying to break down the xenophobia in the Armenian community as you seem to be trying to break down in Turkish society. Such xenophobia has diminished somewhat among European nations. I studied in France in 1968, and returned there 31 years later in 1999. The formation of the EU and the Channel Tunnel has contributed to a lessening of the French-British mutual xenophobia. Ditto for French-German relations. If Armenia is ever to join the Western world, it's people's view of themselves has to be altered, just as the rift Turkey has with Armenia and Armenians will not heal until the Genocide issue is resolved.

 

Common sense will tell one that Early Christian activity was intense in Armenia and that the first Christians were Jews.

[Boghos]

Hello Ali,

 

Good to hear that Turkey is opening up. I have myself seen a documentary on Turkish TV about Akhdamar where they did mention the Armenian component. Also I saw traslated copies of one of Dadrian´s books, I only remember part of the title: "jenosit..." on a Istiklal bookstore.

 

I hope they soon make room in the Ethnographic Musem in Ankara for the Armenians. There is no mention of them there.

 

I am not sure that these cosmetic changes are not just some form of tokenism in order to appease the EU. It is Sezer and Ecevit that have to speak up if real change is going to occur. We´ll see. Call me a sceptic. You´ll be right.

[aurguplu]

Dear Boghos,

 

I have heard of dadrian's book translated into Turkish with the title "jenosit". I don't have a copy yet (crisis crisis I cannot spend money on books at the moment, I have to get married first), but the book has been around for quite some time (I had heard of it about 2000).

 

As for the cosmetic changes to appease the EU, I don't know of their motives, but the effect is going to be clear: the ugly truth will rear its head. Please understand that many clever Turks are quite, if not fully, aware of what transpired in 1915, but we have to be wary of a public opinion that lags behind us. If you are the PM of Turkey and know what really happened but have a population that has been force-fed falsified history for three generations, you have to proceed very, very carefully.

 

This is the real problem in Turkey. And all the recent developments that have been taking place for the past two-three years reinforce my opinion that the state is current conducting a secret campaign to prepare the nation psychologically for an eventual recognition of the genocide. I think by now it has gone too far to stay as a merely cosmetic change.

 

Cheers,

[hayemyes]

Hagarag,

U r right that many early christians were at one time jews, but the problem here is that tigran wasn't a chritian, he was pagan so don't make us believe that he was a jew cuz we have better knowledge of our history.

[Arpa]

Congratulations!

To Ali and all the Alis.

This may yet be the biginning of the end.

While Turkey has been growing physically by leaps and bounds it has not only not grown spiritually, on the contrary her spiritual growth has been stunted and even regressed while the opposite has been in the case of the Armenian. While the Armenian has been boldened and grown strong spiritually, probably due to the trials and tribulations, due to her failures, the Turks on the other hand have become more and more confused in their identity. First they were hordes, then Ottomans and now trying to be Turks, Armenians, on the other hand have never confused in their identity. Yes they have for short periods of times. Some of us are still searching, some of us are still trying to justify our existence by searching for nonexistent ties to Noah and his purported heirs. Armenians have had a distinct heritage and culture unlike some others who are still searching. Arabic, Koranic script, no, European and Latin Alphabet etc.

Some of us have labeled the Armenian as "cowards", me included at times. More often than not Armenians have relented their destiny to alien gods and alien forces, at times they have forgotten how to take their own destiny in hand and fight for it. Now, after many centuries Armenians seem to have discovered that old adage that says; "If you want it done right, do it yourself". Although, at times we have admitted to being cowards it seems like the real cowards are the Turks. For centuries the big "Goliath" has been trying to slay the little "David". They tried patronisation, hoping that reducing the Armenian to a tribe of Ottomans would make them go away, they tried the "final solution", and when that failed they decided to totally ignore them, hoping that Sovietization and evetual asssimilation would once and for all solve the "Armenian question". Now the Turk is slowly realizing their failure. Ever since the Genocide the word "Armenian" was totally and completely banned. Books and articles of history, geography and tourism would meticulously omit the word Ermeni. Every inhabitant of Anatolia, be it in antiquity or present would be mentioned, all thr way from Hittites, Assyrians and Arameans, even Greeks and Romans would be acknowledged but one would have to look under the microscope to find any reference to the Armenian. Thousands of monographs have been written to give a Turkish meaning to Aghuri Mountain, another thousands have been written to prove Aghtamar (made up of "aght/haght"=victorious and "amar/amour"=firm/powerful. Aghtamar was fortress, hence the name)is in fact a Turkish word(s). I wish I had made a copy of that documentary on the Discovery channel in which a group of archeologists, some European and a Turk were digging in the region of Van when the Turk held up a stone tablet with Armenian inscriptions that I could read with great ease, when asked what language it was he looked into the camera and without even batting an eye said; "We don't know, it is an exotic and extinct writing that we have not deciphered yet."

Coward!!!

What was he afraid of? Why was he afraid?

Speaking of spiritual maturity, Armenians have never denied the existence of Turkey. All official compendia will not pull the punch and state things like; Ararat, a mountain in Turkey. Van, a lake in Turkey etc. Why has Turkey tried to deny the existence of Armenians, be it in the past or the present? Speaking of cowardice. There is a saying in Armenian; Gogh sirt@ thogh"(Thief, a trembling heart). Is that why the Turk trembles every time the word Armenian appears? Cowardice! And now, even with that "trembling heart"the Turk is slowly realizing that Armenians are not going anywhere soon, even that "trembling heart", ever so shyly, ever so coyly, are beginnning to recite that word again.

Does this mean Turks are finally growing spiritually? Does this mean Turks are finally feeling secure in their identity? Or have they finally realized that they will not be admitted to the ranks of civilized people with that huge closet full of "skeletons".

Whatever the reason; Welcome to the civilized world? NOT YET!!! Turkey needs some more growing up to do. Like owning up to past and present sins.

Will the Armenian forgive the Turk?

Who's asking for forgiveness?

Oh, I forgot. The Turk does not subscribe to the faith where Confession is the prerogative to Forgiveness. They still subscribe to the faith that believes the solution to every problem is at the edge of the sword.

[Guest Fadi]

Ali

 

Sorry that I do not share your trust, about braking the Armenian taboo.

 

Of course from Turkish CNN, something was presented about Armenian history. But the problem is what is denied vs what IS NO presented but accepted. What you bring here, is what is not denied but not presented... thats entirly different story.

 

Boghos, you say you have translated "Jenocid" from Dadrian. In which language have you translated it ?

[aurguplu]

dear arpa & Domino,

 

although i disagree with your above posts (especially the tone of that of arpa), i can understand your indignation at the ongoing denial of the genocide.

 

let me elucidate, though, the task that a turk who is trying to change the attitudes of his fellow countrymen faces:

 

armenians 101:

 

1. armenians are people like us and not aliens from outer space. they are not little green men with eight eyes and tentacles and their fingertips don't glow in the dark.

 

2. armenians have been around since about 1,200 bc, they don't date from the battle of manzikert in 1071 ad or world war one. and their purpose in life has not uniformly been the annihilation of the turkish nation. and it is a bit far-fetched (for want of a better word) to call armenia "a dagger struck at the heart of the turkish fatherland". please guys, they have been here before us.

 

3. armenians have been existing in anatolia since 1,200 bc, and if this is correct, it is only logical to expect some traces of them. in fact, such traces do exist.

 

4. all the ancient scripts of anatolia have been deciphered, and the thing in front panel of that church is armenian. you don't have to be a scholar of obscure languages to read it, your next-door car mechanic arto can do it.

 

5. things armenian don't bite, sting, or otherwise cause any bodily harm.

 

6. you won't turn into an infidel (=christian) by entering that church.

 

7. reports that turks have encountered armenians and survived the event have some basis in fact. look at me.

 

8. no, the dolmabahçe palace wasn't built by an italian, it was built by an ottoman armenian called sarkis balyan.

 

9. yes, the sultan did commission him to build his palace, his tomb (=yes, tomb) and his mosque (yes, MOSQUE). and the sultan was not an armenian.

 

10. no, the sultan did not become an infidel (he was also the caliph for god's sake) by letting him build these (and no, he wasn't a muslim, overt or covert). and you won't lose your religion by entering that mosque.

 

11. the armenians say the turks killed them. we say they killed us. there are 65 million of us, and 80,000 of them, in turkey. explain.

 

12. peace can be made between them and us. and it won't cost us our land.

 

13. no, most armenians are clever enough to realise that turkey will not "give" six of its provinces to armenia to make peace. they just want the recognition of the fact of what happened to their ancestors.

 

14. the fact that they killed us does not undo the fact that we killed them. and if they have their criminals, that does not make us innocent.

 

15. not all of those armenians who died were plotting against turks. babies can't plot.

 

see? this is where we have to start with our countrymen. given this start, i think quite a bit has been achieved already.

 

before telling us that you don't have any hopes for changes, please read this carefully. this is the ground beneath our feet.

 

cheers

 

[ May 14, 2002, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: aurguplu ]

[Twilight Bark]

The reason the elected officials must tread very carefully is not because of a backlash from the population, although it is always wise to break the news in a diplomatic fashion. The real danger is the military and the "hardliners" (i.e. the grey-wolf types, which should be regarded as a militia, rather than a true civilian group). The life expectancy of a prime minister that initiates a true enlightenment in Turkey would be reduced drastically. If lucky, he would be toppled by a bloodless coup, and spend the rest of his days under house arrest, contemplating. Under such wonderful encouragement, one's own thinking itself tends to stay, shall we say, "conservative". In many respects, Turkey is still an Orwellian society, although that has been changing slowly.

 

Those that follow the Turkish press for a long time should remember that in the eighties there was a big hoopla in the Turkish press about some ingredient in detergents that could harm the environment. The population, which in general is as far away from being tree-hugging "Green"s as one could possibly get, got so worked up about it that all the brands phased out the offending ingredient in a relatively short amount of time. The moral of the story is that the Turkish population will follow the lead of the journalists and the establishment in general. The ones to be "convinced" are not the ordinary Turks, but their puppeteers. And they are not such a numerous group.

[Boghos]

I agree with you. My point is that by the time Sezer or Ecevit or whomever in a serious official capacity says something that it is the consequnce of the process you are referring to.

 

On the Turkish press: when Turkesh died, he was in the first page of all newspapers as some kind of nice old uncle. Call it skewed to the right...

[Twilight Bark]

Very nice. Except that the start date would have to be somewhat earlier, slightly predating the Phrygians. The dealings of Mursili II with the "Hayasa-Azzi" people took place around 1330 B.C. or so. It is beyond any doubt that the Hayasa-Azzi province was the first amalgamation of the Armenian people.

 

You mean the famous architect Baliani did not exist? Darn.

 

That's easy. They simply emigrated. You know, looking for better jobs, material gain, and blonde girls, being the materialistic scum we all know they are (to paraphrase another esteemed contributor).

 

As for the "land" issue. It is impractical and undesirable for all involved, simply because it is currently populated by Kurds and Turks. The usual story of "two wrongs don't make right". However, civilized countries do let go of "their" territory when people on that territory state unambiguously that they want to secede. Czechoslovakia is a good example. Canada is also a good example, since it has all the mechanisms for it to take place in a peaceful and orderly fashion. Even Russia, not known to be at the cutting edge of political liberalism, has allowed its "empire" to contract significantly without bloodshed or much quarrel (the case of Chechnya being where they apparently draw the line).

[khodja]

Hayemyes,

 

I must admit that the source of my "Tigran was a Jew" comment is very suspect. It was stated in one of Bernard Lewis' lengthy works. I guess if he could boldly lie about what transired 1915-23, he could lie about this also. I just didn't think that he would jeopardize his reputation further by lying about something like this.

[khodja]

Ali,

 

Here are a listing of a few good books in English that I have on hand. When I visit my other residence, I will send you information on numerous others. These are traditional works. I will later send you information on the more radical works from which some of my ideas emanate.

 

A History of the Armenian People, Volumes I, II, George A. Bournoutian, Mazda Publishers, Costa Mesa, CA, 1995.

 

The Armenian People From Ancient to Modern Times, Volumes I, II, Richard G. Hovannisian, Ed., St. Martin's Press, New York, 1997.

 

The Kingdom of Armenia, M. Chahin, Dorset Press, New York, 1987.

 

The Armenians, Adriano Alpago Novello, Rizzoli, New York, 1986. (Art Book)

 

British Foreign Office Dosiers on Turkish War Criminals, Vartkes Yegiayan, Doctorian Productions, Pasadena, CA, 1991.

 

Armenians in the Service of the Ottoman Empire 1860-1908, Mesrob K. Krikorian, Routledge, London, 1977.

[aurguplu]

hagarag,

 

with all due respect, a sustantial part of the world's population in the middle east and europe (and now americas) may have some jewish ancestry if you dig deep enough (this very probably includes me, and you don't have to dig that deep after all), and as far as i can tell from my observations, most of these guys couldn't care less if they had jewish blood or not. once you cease to describe yourself as a member of a certain nation/culture/religion/etnicity, it becomes a matter of ever-decreasing significance whether or not you have this or that blood in your veins.

 

consider: what did tigran think of his jewish ancestry. when it came to choose, would he consider himself jewish or armenian?

 

cheers,

[aurguplu]

on a different note: i hope to be working (part-time) with a publishing house as a translator of works on the history and culture of various peoples. this house is already having redgate's book on the armenians translated into turkish. as the "ban" on things armenian is gradually being lifted, i would like to do my bit to help the process.

 

can anyone care to give me a list of some basic books on the art, civilisation, culture and literature of the armenians, so that i can make them suggestions (preferably titles in english, as i do almost all translation from/to english).

 

also, a few suggestions on something like "teach yourself armenian" and a decent armenian-english-english armenian dictionary please.

 

cheers,

[bellthecat]

It was not a Turk that said this, it was a stupid American "Noah's-ark-hunter", a minor "academic" from some hicksville American college if I remember rightly. (I have it on tape, but please have mercy and don't ask me to re-watch it!) It was on an Armenian gravestone that the American said was an anchor from the ark!!

[Twilight Bark]

Next semester; Armenians 102, first week:

 

16. The killing was entirely lopsided. Almost complete annihilation of Armenians first, on the order of a million innocents, and revenge killings (mostly innocents, must be presumed) by Armenians later, possibly in a few tens of thousands.

 

17. Not every Armenian was an enemy is a drastic understatement. The percentage of Armenians posing any threat to anyone was pitifully small, probably a few percent. The unavoidable existence of fed-up radicals was used as a cover for wholesale murder and plunder.

 

[ May 14, 2002, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[Guest Fadi]

Ali

 

I understand your good intentions, but I am a lot more skeptical then you. I do not believe this thing will be resolved in my life time and at least some more generation.

 

To make my point, I would like to post here something that was posted in a Turkish forum.

 

"The similarity between the so-called Armenian "genocide" & Fishing in Conesus Lake"

 

http://www.csicop.org/skeptiseum/Conesus2.JPG

 

I do not know if you have just an idea of how offensive this is... but it was seen by anybody as normal, and none has answered to it.

 

I would even not make such comparaison if there was a mass killing of dogs Ali. This person is comparing the killing of the Armenians to someone that would kill a fish while fishing. And this is the way many Turks on the web(a good portion) see these things. They compare Armenians to snakes etc...

 

More I search about these things more I become discusted about this. Armenians living on all the territory that is forming now Turkey have been vanished, their monuments all destroy, their presence is denied. Now you listen on CNN about Tigran the Armenian kind. Do you imagine Ali ? We are talking about an Armenian king of the dates around 50 BC, if you call this a big move, I'm not really sure this to be the case.

 

Afterall, in the 10 question 10 answers the Turkish government allege Armenians to be Phrygian colonies to show they are not orginary from that region... well here is the point when I say some things are accepted but hiden... only ignorents would know that even if Phrygian colonies were in fact Armenians, an important part of Historical Phrygia was situated on Western Turkey, this would still mean Armenians were orginary from that territory... the official versions amongs others are that Armenians were Phrygian colonies, other then the stupid theories that they are "Haykazans" etc... they now only tell what people accept but don't talk about when they talk about Tigran.

 

The genocide thing is a very different story.

 

Here an interesting thing that was raised that TB talked also about.

 

The Turks killed by Armenians, before I research about the question I believed in fact that 100,000 Muslim or more were killed by Armenians, but after an intensive research on Erzeroun, Kars bordering as well as Van, and numbers and statistic computation, I came to the conclusion that statistically speaking the killing done by the Armenians were very and very limited, more then what I tought first.

 

Emin statistics are forgeries that do not hold water, Edib allegations fall short, as well as afterwar kemalist propaganda's build up for international consuption.

 

Anyone that will study Anatolian villages will remark of the impossibility of the thing, without massive deportations and concentration of these people, so killing people directly in their villages without ny plan to concentrate them would be impossible on the typical Ottoman Eastern Muslim villages, these villages contained at most 2000 habitant each(more then this were rare), so in order to have such plans to kill more then 10,000 Muslims these bands had to plan their evacuation, with techinics of evacuations of a minimum of 2 or 3 villages at ounce, and in the period of the 3 months of Russian Army entering and Turkish troups partial redrwal, it would mean that they had to order such evacuations, at minimum 3 times, 2-3 villages each time... this kind of evacuation would be impossible without government orders, so if such massacres took place, they were done without evacuations, something more difficult to realise, because of the higher possible defense in the villages then a deportation.

 

This would mean that Armenians with the time being could have massacred at most 15,000 civilians, this is a mathematical maximum, of course this could be different if some sort of deportation or evacuation has been done supported by the Russians, but the responsability of such killings would be on the hand of the Russians not the Armenians... Jewish KAPO's in WWII were responsable of the extermination of hundreds of thousands of Jews, and others as well, but would that mean that we can allege that they killed hundreds of thousands of people ? Such acts of evacuation are governmental acts, Russians are responsable of hundreds of thousands of Muslim deaths, they may have used Armenians for their own aims, but these killings would have been done by the name of the Russian empire. Here the number of 15,000 Civilians that I found are the statistical maximum number of killings that Ottoman Armenians could have done on the Muslim, the real number is possibly lower.

 

There is evidences on my allegation, the official numbers of villages attacked by Armenians was not higher then 8 or at most 10, on the reports, and even used by Germany to justify Ottoman actions, like mentioned these villages in average were populated from 100 to 900 people, some cases of as much as 1500, but rarly exided 2000 people, this would mean that if we suppose that the totalty of the Muslim in these villages have been killed by Armenians, the total number of possible victims could very difficultly be higher then 15,000.

 

Of course I have seen propaganda fom Turkey's site by presenting their withnesses series of archives of 550,000 victims and taking these at most 10 villages and then classe these villages in their respectif villeties and then claims that these places such as Kars, Van etc... the Muslim habitant were victim of a general massacre, when reports were talking abouit incident in villages bordering these places... villages that hatdly its habitant exided 500 people... For example claims that in Van 180,000 Muslim have been killed, etc... when 180,000 from the statistic was the number of the total Muslim habitant of Van, they say only 30,000 Turks survived, the total Turkish habitant in Van, from the statistics were constituing 30,000 of its habitant...

 

Many examples like this could be given, villages killing are far of being general massacres, someone that knows how the typical Anatolian villages were.

 

So the only way of killing so huge numbers of people is to pass a plan of evacuation and consentrate all these people in some area's... and the only case with such actions was the Ottoman institutionalisation of the Armenian deportation. The concentration of these peoples in mass killing area's and mass starvation area's etc...

 

[ May 14, 2002, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Guest Fadi]

A little clarification here.... 80 % of Anatolian villages were constitutuing around 100 person or little more... above this population, it was cities bordering villages or a grouping of villages dstinated to easy the taxation etc...

[THOTH]

Domino -

 

I think it would be very useful to develop this approach further - and clarify it - first by citing the Turkish (counter?) accusatrions then by presenting data such as you have gathered and calcualtions as you have projected. Frankly I would be very surprised if Armenians were responsible for 15,000 Muslim deaths (anytime prior to 1917) - but I am open to this if the facts merit it - I am not naive that there were not some Armenian fighting bands & such (as one of my Grandfathers joined one in retaliation for his family being killed and village destroyed).

 

Oh, and please, I don't think that your tone needs to be directed at Ali. He seems entirely understanding - at least in the intellectual sense - what occured to our people - and is certainly in no way a denier.

[Guest Fadi]

The allegations in question are to important to be explaned in few lignes...

 

But I'll try it.

 

First Erzincan, pictures and reports of massacres circulated about massacres done by Armenians against the Muslim population, I will not enter here in he technicalities, because it would be very long and I will bore people.

 

At that time Memduh replaced Abdul Halik as the governor of Erzincan..., and then his service to the Kemalists he never clearly said that the Muslim were exterminated by the Armenians but he was glad and happy that the Armenian population was cleared from Erzincan... and this he was not hiding it, Abdul Halik, was the bloody killer of Erzincian, and Memduh when replacing him was "proud of the fact that he (Abdul Halik) had cleared out the Christian population of Erzincan."("The Tragedy of Bitlis", Grace Knapp, pp. 130-131)

 

Many memoirs refer to Abdul Halik "unhumanity" like Swedish nurse Alma Johansson reported the orders given from the province in charge by Abdul Halik conserning the Armenian orphans that "were burnt alive"

 

German archive AA Türkei 183/48, A34435, October 1, 1917

 

While these acts were complited the Armenian population from these territories was empited and repopulated from Muslim emigrants, in that time, there was an impossibility that Armenians would have killed even 20 Muslim civilians, the way all this was done, the way all this was organised, the eradication of women and children by mass burning and drowning(both observed by German officials and missionaries, admited by the commander of the Turkish 3rd army in his testemony during the war tribunal, for example he refered to the village of village of Tchurig where the "Armenian women and children were burnt alive ... " "Takvim-i Vekay", n. 3540) when the men were already separeted from them pacted like animals as labour worker, they were just killed inmass.

 

The enormity of these actions on the scheme of the event, even alleging that Armenians killed 50 Muslim civilians will be an exgeration. There was no way that these people trying to survive will use their last enegy to kill Muslim, considering that they were in the vicinity of the villages where at max there was 200 people per villages, they had to go, villages to villages to kill them, while they were desperatly trying to survive, and when on the same time the Muslim were armed by their government.

 

During the first phase of the genocide there was no way to believe that Armenians started any mass killings, villages per villages was just an imposibility. In order to kill so many people in the vicinity of the villages they had to destroy hundreds of villages, and this is not only impossible technically, but not as well possible mathematicaly. Like I said I will not enter in details.

 

The Van mass killing of Muslim was also impossible like reported, every direct eyewithnesses that decided to verify what happened reported that this mass killing was a made up story from Istanbul, when considering that the governor of Van was Djevet one of the most bloodish murderer of his time, planning on Sundays to bar the Church with their fidels assisting on Sunday ceremonials, and then burn them... or his collection of Armenian girls, for the alleged Harem that he possessed... When he was a prisoner in Malta, the brits classed him on the most bloody group, and were not supposed to be on the list of the criminals to be exchanged with British ones, when him and some other escaped from Malta.

 

ABout what happened in Van, the Kaimakam of Mamouret-el-Aziz (Kharpout) Fa'iz El-Ghusein, in the conclusion of his work, explain what he has discovered.(Martyred Armenia by Fa'iz El-Ghusein, Bombay, 1916)

 

"If the Turkish Government were asked the reasons for which the Armenian men, women, and children were killed, and their honor and property placed at any man's mercy, they would reply that this people have murdered Moslems in the Vilayet of Van, and that there have been found in their possession prohibited arms, explosive bombs, and indications of steps towards the formation of an Armenian state, such as flags and the like, all pointing to the fact that this race has not turned from its evil ways, but on the first opportunity will kill the Moslems, rise in revolt, and invoke the help of Russia, the enemy of Turkey, against its rulers. That is what the Turkish government would say. I have followed the matter from its source. I have inquired from inhabitants and officials of Van, who were in Diarbekir, whether any Moslem had been killed by Armenians in the town of Van, or in the district of the Vilayet. They answered in the negative, saying that the Government had ordered the population to quit the town before the arrival of the Russians and before anyone was killed but that the Armenians had been summoned to give up their arms and had done so, dreading an attack by the Kurds, and dreading the government also; the government had further demanded that the principal notables and leading men should be given up to them as hostages, but the Armenians had not complied.

 

All this took place during the approach of the Russians towards the city of Van. As to the adjacent districts, the authorities collected the Armenians and drove them into the interior, where they were all slaughtered, no Government official or private man, Turk or Kurd, having been killed.

 

As regards Diarbekir, you have read the whole story in this book, and no insignificant event took place there, let alone murders or breaches of the peace, which could lead the Turkish Government to deal with the Armenians in this atrocious manner.

 

At Constantinople, we hear of no murder or other unlawful act committed by the Armenians, except the unauthenticated story about the twenty activists to which I have already referred.

 

They have not done the least wrong in the Vilayets of Kharpout, Trebizond, Sivas, Adana, or Bitlis, nor in the province of Moush.

 

I have related the episode at Zeitoun, which was unimportant, and that at Urfa, where they acted in self defense, seeing what had befallen their people, and preferring death to surrender.

 

As to their preparations, the flags, bombs and the like, even assuming there to be some truth in the statement, it does not justify the annihilation of the whole people, men and women, old men and children, in a way which revolts

all humanity and more especially Islam and the whole body of Moslems, as those unacquainted with the true facts might impute these deeds to Mohammedan fanaticism."

 

He also talks about the pictures of Muslim mass killings allegedly done by the Armenians.

 

"Photographs of Armenians lying in the road, dressed in turbans, for despatch to Constantinople. The Turkish Government thought that European nations might get to hear of the destruction of the Armenians and publish the news abroad so as to excite prejudice against the Turks. So after the gendarmes had killed a number of Armenian men, they put on them turbans and brought Kurdish women to weep and lament over them, saying that the Armenians had killed the men. They also brought a photographer to photograph the bodies and the weeping women, so that at a future time they might be able to convince Europe that it was the Armenians who had attacked the Kurds and killed them, that the Kurdish tribes had risen against them in revenge, and that the Turkish Government had had no part in the matter. But the secret of these proceedings was not hidden from men of intelligence, and after all this had been done, the truth became known and was spread abroad in Diarbekir."

 

Steve in the past posted 2 chapters of the work of Rafael de Nogales "Four Years Beneath the Crescent"

 

from it, in chapter V he describe.

 

"One hour later we saw numerous gigantic columns of smoke surge up from the opposite shore of the lake, indicating the sites where the cities and hamlets of the provinces of Van were being devoured by flame. Then I understood. The die was cast. The Armenian "revolution" had begun."

 

He concluded this from the reports given to him, about Armenian revolt...

 

Then on the next chapter, he goes there and see by his own eyes.

 

"April 21. At dawn I was awakened by the noise of shots and volleys. The Armenians had attacked the town. Immediately I mounted my horse and, followed by some armed men, went to see what was happening. Judge of my amazement to discover that the aggressors had not been the Armenians, after ail, but the civil authorities themselves! Supported by the Kurds and the rabble of the vicinity, they were attacking and sacking the Armenian quarter."

 

Now after two person direct account, as well as all the reports from German officials about people such as Djever, and Refik own report book, about the construction of an alleged Armenian revolution... also about the fact that villages in Anatolia are devided in small population groups etc... and then the attack on the Armenian quarter in Van, it is impossible to believe that the prpagandas brough were credible... they even gave been destroied by the Turkish tribunal etc...

 

The same goes with the said general massacre of Muslim in Erzincian.

 

Like I said again, I do not want to enter in technicality... but, its impossible to believe that there was such massacres like reported.

 

Here few other sources.

 

"This attempt of the Armenians to defend themselves against the Turkish attack in Van was promptly misrepresented in a communique' which was sent by Enver ***** and the Turkish Government to Berlin, and thence spread all over the world, as an attack by bands of Armenian insurrectionists who, in the rear of the Turkish army had fallen prey upon the Muhammedan population. Out of 180,000 Moslems in the Vilayet of Van only 30,000 had succeeded in escaping! In a later report issued by the Turkish embassy in Berlin on October 1, 1915, the story was further embellished: "No fewer than 180,000 Moslems had been killed. It was not surprising that the Moslems had taken vengeance for this". Some 18 Turks, answering to the number of Armenians they had killed in Van, had turned into 180,000! This astonishing impudent lie has a kind of foundation. According to statistics there should be 180,000 Moslems, including 30,000 Turks and 150,000 Kurds, in the Vilayet of Van. The Turks fled westwards when the Russian army advanced, while the 150,000 Kurds remained where they were, and were

molested neither by the Russians nor the Armenians"

 

"Armenia and the Near East", Dr. Fridtjof Nansen, 1928, p. 302.

 

"The Turkish ally also furnished German papers with stories of Armenian cruelty to offset the unfavorable publicity directed at the Central Powers for their alliance with the "terrible Turk", the perpetrator of the "Armenian massacres." The Armenians were accused of helping the Russians burn the Moslem quarters in the province of Van, rape the women and girls, kill all the men. According to a later estimate the Russians had burned alive 500 people in one village of Van, and only 30,000 of the 180,000 Moslems in the province had escaped. Germans who read that the Armenians were especially fond of burning Turks to death were not likely to have much sympathy with the Christian minority of Turkey. An intensive anti-Armenian campaign was staged by the official Turkish news agency as late as February and March, 1918. In this group of stories the most refined types of mutilation were included, such as Armenians waylaying Turks, tearing out their lungs and hanging them on the wall"

 

"Atrocity Propaganda 1914-1919", James Morgan Read, Yale University Press, 1941, pp. 118-119

 

I do not believe that I need again to post the quotation from Refik at the Turkish War Intelligentsia bureau... stating that the Armenian revolution theory has been build in Istanbul to justify the actions taken against the Armenians(he recognise that these actions were ment to exterminate the Armenians).

 

This is why I am saying that much of the said atrocities perpetred by Armenians were just propaganda's ment to hide the eradication plan against the Armenians.

 

Later on the Russian advence atrocities were in fact perpetrated against the Muslims, massacres were massif, and done by Armenians. BUT... even if we take a closer look at Turkish archives wer realise that these killings were done against war prisoners, Turkish soldiers desarmed by the Russian army and pacted all together... we can believe that few thousands of such soldiers have been killed by the Russian Armenians, and maybe to an extant, by the fewer Ottoman Armenian serving for them(escaping massacres etc...). But this has nothing surprising, it has even been done in Europe, even in WWII, by the allies NAZI prisoners(soldiers etc...) and Jewish terrorist organizations that called themselves Vengences, planing to poison them, if arms were given to them, and these soldiers lets to them, not hard to guess what could have happened.

 

I think it is enough for now... I have to do some works for now...

 

PS: the 15,000 was a maximum a mathematic maximum, it dosnt mean they have killed as much, its just the mathematical possible number.

 

[ May 15, 2002, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]