Pilgrimage in Turkey

[Stormig]

Just out of curiosity.

Turkey houses some of the most important religious and historical sites revered by the Greek Orthodox church, and not only the Greeks but other Christians have been increasingly visiting these places over the years, we are told.

And what about Armenians? Ani, Akht'amar, Kayseria, also hold special places in Armenians' hearts.

A few Armenians have visited these places in groups before. We know this.

My question is, how do people here overall feel about a pilgrimage that includes not only Etchmiadzin, Geghard, Khor Virap in Armenia but also sites in Turkey and also a place like the church of St. Thaddeus (Qara Qilisa) near Maku, the Vank Cathedral in Esfahan, in Iran, as well as perhaps the Armenian quarter in Jerusalem? What places would they want to go to (other than the abovementioned)? What should the conditions be? How would they like to engage with the Armenian communities in these places (obviously not Turkey)?

[MJ]

Stormy,

 

As a note of tangential pertinence to the subject, the term pilgrimage, though used in the recent history, is not characteristic to Armenian history and tradition. It bears sort of religious content, for which there is no precedent in Armenian history, and is more characteristic for the Islamic context.

 

Any expeditions that Armenian may or may not organize or support would be of historic and cultural character, which is a proper context for the upcoming future.

 

However, given the corruptness of Armenian self-perception, especially in Diaspora, that term may be forced into circulation, unfortunately.

[Azat]

Dear MJ, I am not aware of Armenian pilgrimages or not. But many Christians do make pilgrimages to very famous Christian sites like Santiago de Compostela in Portugal and Lourdes in France and many many others. So I am not sure if it is more characteristic of Islam.

 

Stormy, I have traveled all over the world(last count was over 30 countries). I travel to see the treasures of the world. I love ancient sculpture and art. And I know Turkey holds many Art treasures, but I have never have the urge to travel to Turkey. It just is not in my soul.

[Stormig]

Wow, Azat! Can we have a list (not that kind of list )of those countries?

[THOTH]

Azat - traveling in Turkey is certainly bittersweet. Still I have found it of great (historical/cultural) interest and highly rewarding (on a personal level). I can certainly understand your reservations - on a number of levels - but I would still encourage you to visit one day. I certainly hope to go back again.

[Stormig]

I would like more input, please.

Perhaps what MJ meant was that you don't get to have "shrines" in the exact meaning of the word in the case of Armenians. From what I gather, "pilgrimage" is used rather loosely today and even someone who visits the catacombs in Rome can consider himself a half-pilgrim, even though they may have first gone there because of stories of people living underground in hiding. (Half-pilgrim beginning to sound like the bickering about true Armenians and half-Armenians and non-Armenians. )

Medjugorje in Croatia is another such spot for pilgrims.

[MJ]

I meant that there is no precedent in Armenian History of people organizing "pilgrimages to holly sites." I am not aware of declaration of any holy sites in Armenia history.

 

I understand your argument that the word pilgrimage is indeed used in a lose manner in our days.

 

As I said above, my comment was of a tangential character.

[Stormig]

Dunno, I've noticed mention of pilgrims at least once on this site:

 

http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/khtz...nk/khtzkonk.htm

 

In 1878, after the Russian conquest of the Kars region, Khtzkonk was returned to the Armenian Church. The buildings were renovated and religious life resumed within the monastery. New accommodation was erected for monks and pilgrims - these were built along the edge of the main spur, beside the river in the gorge below, and also to the north-west of the Saint Sargis church.

 

Wouldn't you agree that those sites in such remote, desolate places were too beautiful to be left unvisited and just for the purpose of keeping the monks busy?

[bellthecat]

Do you mean that the organization of "pilgrimages" at times that do not follow the traditional dates of pilgrimages set by the Armenian church, and going to places that do not traditionally have pilgimages has no precident?

 

That might be true, but to say anything more than that has to be wrong - there are loads of old accounts of Armenians going on pilgrimages to religious sites (not always even to churches - pointing to possible pre-Christian origins). Some were strictly local in character, others of national importance - and as for the lack of "holy sites" - come on, there are plenty examples - the Etchmiadzin churches are built upon the sites of the graves of Hripsime and her virgins, Zvartnots was built on the spot where Trdat the great meat St. Gregory, there is a church near Erzincan that contained the grave of St. Gregory, and many other minor saints had churches built over their supposed burial places.

 

Steve

[bellthecat]

There is a drawing by Martiros Saryan, from 1929, titled "Pilgrimage", showing a large crowd of people picknicking and camping in front of this monastery. The specific scene is definately imaginary because there is no flat ground near the monastery for such a gathering, but it might have been based on a real event but depicted with some artistic licence.

 

Steve

[MJ]

Steve,

 

My argument has been solely directed at the word “pilgrimage” (though I have used that term in the past, myself.)

 

BTW, I didn’t quite understand your question. Could you rephrase it please?

 

My understanding is that Etchimiadzin is built on a site of a destroyed pagan temple. Is it not so? However, I am not aware of Etchimiadzin, Hripseme, etc. ever being declared as “holly sites” by the Armenia Church (who else might declare something in Armenia as “holly site?”)

 

However, I would gladly accept my mistake if you would care to educate me on the subject.

[vava]

Pardon my interjection:

 

According to the definition (2) above, the word Pilgrimage can indeed be used to represent the travels of Armenian people to sites of historic cultural significance whether or not they are declared 'holy' sites by the Armenian Church. In the diaspora, we often see trips to Armenia organized though the community centers for the youth. I would wholly qualify these trips as Pilgrimages.

 

Getting back to Stormy's original question:

Since the question, as it is phrased, is purely subjective: I feel that it is entirely desirable to visit sites of Armenian heritage, no matter which country's borders surround them. Many of these sites, especially those within Turkey, may not last much longer. At the very least, it would be nice to preserve such beautiful places, in photographs, and in our memories.

 

Granted, it will likely be more difficult to organize tours of large groups through 'restricted' zones in Turkey, than it would individual visits. Also, large organized visits within the borders of Turkey would directly support the Turkish economy/tourism industry - and that may be more difficult for some Armenians to swallow. Despite these drawbacks however, I feel that it is essential especially for Diasporan Armenians, to keep touch with their cultural roots.

 

So how about we organize a Hye-Forum 'Pilgrimage'? We'll try to avoid definition #3.

[gamavor]

With Kalashnikov in my hands:)))))

[Sip]

So can we call you Haji Azat? Have you made that type of a pilgrimage yet? That would be funny if you had!!!

 

In any case, seems to me that the word "pilgrimage" is almost often used as having a religeous context these days. If so, I personally won't feel I am pilgrimadgeing to Turkey if I do go there. And as I've said before, I'd probably go there for the food.

[Azat]

I only make pilgrimages to brew pubs and wineries.

 

As an atheist I could care less for religious sites for the religious purposes, however I will go out of my to see great artifacts and many are at religious locations.

[MJ]

I just noticed the above comment, Stormy.

 

The referenced photos are indeed breathtaking.

 

I am not even sure that in Armenian language there is an equivalent of the word "pilgrim" the way it is perceived in English. Since the Arab conquest, I think, the word "gharib" has been put into circulation in Armenian society, and it is reflected in the poetry of the time, as well as in the pages of the poetry of the early 20th century. That is the closest that I can think of, which comes closest to the word “pilgrim” in Armenia. ( Would like to stand corrected if I am wrong. ) And the word “gharib” has more of a meaning of “immigrant” then a “pilgrim,” the way we understand it in English.

 

Thanks for the comment, Azat. I will stand corrected.

[Boghos]

I have been to most of the sites you mention, Stormy. My next trip would undoubtedly be to Ani.

 

My trips never had an "Armenian" focus, but in case there was something of interest related to Armenians I made a point in seeing it. Naturally Turkey, by far and Iran among other places are obvious cases. But there are "opportunities" all over the world. The vank Church is a particluarly interesting specimen given its most unusual archtitcture whici very much resemble that of a mosque (and I am sure that Steve can go much further...). I have been to an almost abandoned Armenian church in Yangon, Myanmar for example. It depends on your degree of fanaticism .

 

Expeditions or travels in Anatolia, as you probably know have been made by those that are interested in visiting the cities or villages of their ancestors, and in some cases his/her own. I have seen movies of such trips. And this kind of trip probably would attract more people than any other place, Ani excepted, perhaps.

 

There used to be groups travelling to Anatolia from Armenia, through Georgia, of course. I am not sure whether they continue or not.

 

Why do you say "engage with the local community, except Turkey" ?

 

BTW, are you planning such a trip ?

 

[ February 24, 2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[Stormig]

Thanks for the definition, Vava!

[Stormig]

I was merely stating the obvious, because in Anatolia proper there are next to no Armenians left.

[Stormig]

Vava, out of further curiosity, would you rather do this as a group of friends (or non-friends) or with some travel agency ready to rip you off. The former offers flexibility, better management of resources (money), whereas the latter offers guidance and some ease in procedures and the like. Also, I'm curious to be given examples of "restricted zones". What and where are they?

[vava]

I would probably enjoy the visit to a greater degree if accompanied by someone versed in the History (in an Armenian context) of the areas I was visiting. I have only just recently begun to expose myself to the richness of Armenian history. I would expect it to be a fantastic learning opportunity to visit these sites first hand, and immediately ask questions/receive answers on diverse aspects of Armenian history, culture, architecture, religion etc. Someone knowledgable in Armenian architecture would be quite handy too!

 

If there was a travel agency that offered a service to Armenians, it would certainly facilitate the organisation of such a trip and probably alleviate much of the worry. (One would hope that they wouldn't be ripping us off ) Are you planning on created such a travel agency?

 

The site that you referred to above about ANI:

http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/

contains some information on some of these areas. (Although the site seems to be down at the moment.)

 

[ February 24, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: vava ]

[bellthecat]

Which is much the same as the English word "pilgrim", which (according to my dictionary) comes from the Latin "peregrinus" (meaning someone who is "beyond ones own land").

 

So it seems that it is not correct for us to assume (which I was) that a pilgrimage has to have a religious context, though religion does seem to have taken over its use.

 

Looking in my thesaurus for an alternative, less religious, word for pilgrimage led to nothing. All the alternative words for travel seem just to be connected with frivilous, aimless, or pointless travel. This is the exact opposite of the original concept of travel - until maybe 200 years ago nobody travelled just for the sake of travelling. Actually, nowadays the modern mind seems incapable of considering any travel other than the pointless variety: customs ask "is your travel for business or pleasure" - I have never travelled for either.

 

Steve

 

PS: Strange thing, the word "holiday" (holy day) has gone exactly the oppposite way - originally 100% religious, now 100% secular (although Americans seem to go about wishing each other a "happy holiday" at Christmas, a practice that now seems decidedly strange to Britons, but which must result from the original usage being preserved in America and lost in Britain.

[THOTH]

walkabout...

[bellthecat]

So let's reclaim the word "pilgrimage" from religion. Or invent a new word.

 

Neither do I, so forget it

 

I'm not entirely sure about the Etchmiadzin church, but the other two (the St. Gayane and St. Hripsime churches are built on their supposed graves. I don't think people can "declare" a site holy - it either is holy or isn't. The Church can try and encourage or surpress a site's popular recognition, but the initial "holiness" is not in their control.

[nairi]

Expedition, odyssey, sightseeing?

 

Btw Stormy, you never answered Boghos's last question. I'm curious myself...