Armenian Origins?

[Arad9]

There is misconception about the term and definition of Aryan. So I went to dictionary.com and websters online dictionary to check it out.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=aryan

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

 

There is nothing that states that Aryan's are blonde hair and blue eyed. I am not saying that people with blonde hair and blue eyes are not Aryan. It is the misunderstood definition that only people with blonde hair and blue eye physiotype are called Aryan. Where did the false definition come from?

 

If you read the definition of Aryan it is synonymous with the word Iran. So the nation of Aryan's would be considered as the Iranian's.

[Stormig]

There is misconception about the term and definition of Aryan. So I went to dictionary.com and websters online dictionary to check it out.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=aryan

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

 

There is nothing that states that Aryan's are blonde hair and blue eyed. I am not saying that people with blonde hair and blue eyes are not Aryan. It is the misunderstood definition that only people with blonde hair and blue eye physiotype are called Aryan. Where did the false definition come from?

 

If you read the definition of Aryan it is synonymous with the word Iran. So the nation of Aryan's would be considered as the Iranian's.

The misconception: German Nazism (or the schools of so-called "thought" that led to it).

In fact, it was the Aryans who came into India and pushed the Dravidians to the south where they were already concentrated, I believe, and instilled the caste system.

[siraaj]

Armenia is in the Transcaucasus. If you look at the Caucasus itself, you see Kabardin, Georgians, Abkhazians, Chechens, etc. Most of them I understand are of Alpine stock alright - tall, blue-eyed, fair, etc.

What is "Alpine stock"? Never heard of such people.

 

I won't comment on Georgians (as they're similar, but different case), but North Caucasians are not tall at all, mostly stocky built, big hooked noses, brown eyes, black hair, as for skin, the higher the altitude of historic residence, the lighter the skin, there are exceptions of course, and blue-eyed, light haired people (however with typical west-Asian face features) are not so rare. And as anywhere else, there’re plenty of mixed people, the Russians, after exiling the Adygha population in 1865, settled the northern slopes of Caucasus. Adyghea and Karachai-Cherkesia are mostly populated by Slavs, Kabardino-Balkaria being the exception with 60% Kabardey population.

 

By the way, guys, the Hurro-Urartian language is most closely related to East North Caucasian languages (Vainakh & Daghestani). See:

 

I.M. Diakonoff and S.A. Starostin

"Hurro-Urartian as an Eastern Caucasian language"

München: R. Kitzinger, 1986

 

Another thing - Aryan does NOT mean neither white nor European (no matter what Hitler may have claimed ), it is pretty specific to a certain linguistic group with in Indo-European family, synonymous to Indo-Iranian.

 

I also want to clarify that there isn't (nor ever was) such an ethnicity as Indo-European. Indo-European is a broad linguistic concept to identify people with strong linguistic affiliation, NOT genetic relation. In terms of origin and migration, the most commonly accepted THEORY in the academic world places the origin and center of migration in the steppes of historic Scythia (modern day Ukraine).

[MJ]

Another thing - Aryan does NOT mean neither white nor European (no matter what Hitler may have claimed ), it is pretty specific to a certain linguistic group with in Indo-European family, synonymous to Indo-Iranian.

 

I also want to clarify that there isn't (nor ever was) such an ethnicity as Indo-European. Indo-European is a broad linguistic concept to identify people with strong linguistic affiliation, NOT genetic relation. In terms of origin and migration, the most commonly accepted THEORY in the academic world places the origin and center of migration in the steppes of historic Scythia (modern day Ukraine).

siraaj,

 

I would like to great your to-the-point comments and hope that you may be the one to introduce some relevant academic perspective into this issue.

[nairi]

By the way, guys, the Hurro-Urartian language is most closely related to East North Caucasian languages (Vainakh & Daghestani).

I also have Subarian belonging to that list. Potentially they (Hurritic/Hurrian, Urartian and Subarian) belong to the Hunoid (Caucasian?) language family. I'll have to look into this in a little more detail if and when time permits. But maybe you can give an insight before I go torture myself

[Bones98]

Hovsep,

 

I NEVER stated that we ARE Mongolians, just that we are a MIXED people. There are Armenians who look like they came right out of Stockholm, like my paternal grandmother, others like my maternal uncle who looked very Asian and my mother who looked very Semitic. It is well documented that there are strains of French, Jew, Assyrian, Scandinavian in the Armenians.

I heard armenians originated from Turks and Iranians and other mixture with europeans. Hence get it how some look european, some look parsik, some look

arabic, some look afghani, some look egyptian? Well I beleive it is a hard question to answer. First off, my dad says armenians originated from turks, then my mom says armo originated from persians....WOW!! MY HEAD IS DIZZY!

[Arpa]

I heard armenians originated from Turks and Iranians and

=====

is a hard question to answer. First off, my dad says armenians originated from turks, then my mom says armo originated from persians....WOW!! MY HEAD IS DIZZY!

Bones,

First off welcome.

Does your dad say that to mean; "Turks and Armenians are made of the same garbage"?

In America one would say; "Wash your mouth with soap and water". :)

Also be advised that using such language in certain circles may be "hazardous to your health".

[Teutonic Knight]

Hovsep,

 

I NEVER stated that we ARE Mongolians, just that we are a MIXED people. There are Armenians who look like they came right out of Stockholm, like my paternal grandmother, others like my maternal uncle who looked very Asian and my mother who looked very Semitic. It is well documented that there are strains of French, Jew, Assyrian, Scandinavian in the Armenians.

I heard armenians originated from Turks and Iranians and other mixture with europeans. Hence get it how some look european, some look parsik, some look

arabic, some look afghani, some look egyptian? Well I beleive it is a hard question to answer. First off, my dad says armenians originated from turks, then my mom says armo originated from persians....WOW!! MY HEAD IS DIZZY!

So your father is a turk and your mother an iranian.

[gamavor]

I heard armenians originated from Turks and Iranians and

=====

is a hard question to answer. First off, my dad says armenians originated from turks, then my mom says armo originated from persians....WOW!! MY HEAD IS DIZZY!

Bones,

First off welcome.

Does your dad say that to mean; "Turks and Armenians are made of the same garbage"?

In America one would say; "Wash your mouth with soap and water". :)

Also be advised that using such language in certain circles may be "hazardous to your health".

Another one!

[America-Hye]

Bones,

 

There is NO WAY Armenians originated from Turks. There were Armenians in Anatolia millenia before any Turk arrived. Many Turks, however, are descended from Armenians who were stolen as small children by the Turks for the Jendarmes and other operations of the Turkish state. There was probably also forced conversions to Islam and conversions to Islam due to fear, etc. Armenians may be partially descended from Persians, however, or they may have a common ancestry.

[Khazar]

As far as I understand these racial terms like "alpine stock" and such do not hold any water in scientific circles anymore.

 

Chechens, Dagestanis, Kabardino-Balkars and all the other North Caucasian people are *generally* a bit lighter than Armenians, though all of us together have unmistakable similarities. We are all Caucasian mountain peoples after all. I have a Dagestani friend in Moscow who always gets mistaken for an Armenian even by Armenian cab drivers.

 

There are certain villages in Armenia, especially the really isolated ones up in the mountains where the majority of people have light hair and eyes - the village of Tatev in Siunik comes to mind. I can't help but think that their isolation kept their genes relatively less influenced by invading armies.

 

I see nothing wrong with having mixed blood. From asiatic-looking, to blond, to dark, we are the bearers of a unique mix of cultures. That, to me, is both mysterious and cool at the same time. It ties us into the fabric of the world and peoples that surrounded us.

 

"By the way, guys, the Hurro-Urartian language is most closely related to East North Caucasian languages (Vainakh & Daghestani). "

 

I don't know who posted that, but could you give me the link to that info? Interesting.

 

By the way, everyone, I'm new here! Barevner!!

[Khazar]

I found the original message about the "Hurro-Urartian as an Eastern Caucasian Language".

 

While we're on the subject, I remember reading somewhere that the word for 'Artsax' in the Chechen (Vainakh) language is 'Arts'. That is obviously related to the Armenian name 'Artsakh', which tells me that it is an indigenous name rather than an Armenian word with Indo-European roots.

 

Which brings me to this question: How much of Armenian vocabulary consists of indigenous Caucasian words? IfThis question is for any linguists out there...

[MosJan]

This is for anyone who has studied ancient armenian history... Is it true that we are of Aryan origin? and that the original Armenians were blond haired and blue eyed? I remember reading somewhere that there was an ancestral race that gave birth to the armenian race...forgot the name? (that's my goal after I'm done with school... Armenian History!)  smile.gif

Bruni jan i faund thsi - it might help you

 

 

Tour Armenia

 

 

 

Another legend, which is at least partially based on discovered fact, tells of King Haik, and is linked to Ancestral Armenians who called themselves Haiya and their country Haik' or Haiassa-Aza. Haik and his kingdom figured in the biblical story of the Tower of Babel.

 

 

According to the chronicles, Haik was the grandson of Japheth, himself grandson of Noah. "After the Flood, Noah's sons Japheth, Shem and Ham settled in the Ararat region and increased there. Then Shem took his sons and went northwest in search of a new place of settlement. Coming to a plain in the high mountains, he stopped by a river and named the mountain Sim after his own name. He gave this region to his youngest son Tarpan (note similarity to the Armenian word "Tapan", meaning 'ark'). He continued his march in the southeastern direction and gave the regions there to his other children. Tarpan remained with his sons and daughters in the region given to him by his father and called it Taron and later Taruperan after his own name. His children settled in this area and Ham's and Japheth's sons spread out to the various regions of the Armenian Plateau. They spoke the same dialect of the same language.

From Japheth sprang Gomer and from Gomer sprang from Torgom, and from Askenaz and Torgom Haik was born.

 

 

At the age of 130, Haik went to Sendjar, and worked on the building of the Tower of Babel. After the Tower of Babel collapsed, Haik, famous for his handsome appearance, curly hair, ken sight, mighty arms and skill in archery, dominated both the giants and the heroes, and subdued those who defied him. In the chaos that reigned, men threatened men, ready to plunge their swords into the bosoms of their own friends, all each tried to conquer the rest. After the dispersion of the human race over the face of the world, the mighty Haik, famed for his courage and audacity, defied Bel and his tyranny. Fate was on Bel's side though, he conquered the world. He subdued the mighty and proclaimed himself a god, ordering all to worship him.

 

 

Bel was the ruler of the realm, but Haik refused to submit to him. In this realm his sons Armenak, Manavaz, Hor and others were born, and his family grew larger and larger. Since he did not accept Bel's sovereignty, he left for Ararat in the North with his three hundred sons, grandsons and a retinue of his ablest men. There he found people of his nation, who, being the victims of God's wrath at Babel, had migrated and spoke the language of Noah.

 

 

Haik lived in the lands he took and gave them to Armenak's son Kadmos and went to the northwest with his retinue. In a high, mountainous region which he named "Haik", he had a city built called Haikashen, or the city built by Haik.

 

 

Bel, being displeased by Haik's migration, sent one of his sons in the company of most trustworthy men to order him to come back, saying, "You have settled in icy lands. Temper the harshness of your proud nature, submit to me and live comfortably in the place of your desire." But Haik, belittling the messengers, sent them back to Babylon. Upon this, collecting his forces, Bel marched northwards and reached the land of Ararat not far from where Kadmos dwelt. Kadmos fled, sending a message to Haik:

"Oh the greatest of heroes! Bel and his immortal warriors, heroes and giants are coming upon you like a torrent. I fled when I heard that they had entered my realm. With speed I am coming to you. Decide what is to be done."

 

 

Bel and his army of mighty soldiers, like a torrent tearing down a mountain stream entered Haik's domain. Bel had faith in the courage of his soldiers. Haik, this curly-haired, keen-sighted, cautious and calm mighty man, collected his sons, grandsons and most able men, skilled archers, warlike and valiant, but few in number. He came to the shores of a lake, whose salty water fed its fish. He lined them up and said "We must be fast and reach the land surrounded by Bel's heroes and strike them there. If we die, all that we have will be theirs, but if we defeat them by the strength of our own arms, then the victory will be ours.

 

 

Haik's words spurred on his men, and going forth with great speed they covered great distances. They came to a plain situated between very great mountains and climbed a hill to the right of the river. Both armies were at the mountains flanking the valley. From there they saw Bel's army attacking with terrible violence. Bel, at ease and sure of himself amongst his men, stood on a high spot as if on a lookout on the left side of the river. Bel was wearing an iron helmet the plumes of which blew in the wind and iron armor protecting his chest and back, and covering his hips and arms. On his left a sharp sword hung from his belt, and he carried a fine lance in his right hand and a shield in his left. On his side chosen soldiers stood.

 

 

When Haik saw Bel thus equipped and surrounded by his soldiers, he put his son Armenak with his two brothers on his right, and Kadmos with two of his sons on his left, all of them famed archers and swordsmen. He himself took position in the front, and the soldiers who followed took a triangular formation.

 

 

The battle began. The collision of the mighty, their terrifying roar, the brutality and violence of the attacks, spread horror all around. On both sides the mighty fell. But it was too early to know the outcome of the battle.

 

 

When Bel saw this sudden and dangerous resistance, he climbed back on the hill from which he had stood and waited for his forces to gather and attack again from all sides. Haik saw that this was so, and he, the mighty and skilled archer that he was, stood opposite Bel, he stretched his bow and shot a three feathered arrow at his heart. The arrow pierced the iron and passed through Bel's chest, and thus the vain Bel was felled and gave his last breath.

 

 

When Bel's army saw this frightful sight, it retreated without looking back. Haik named this battlefield Haiyotsdzor (the valley of Hai), and the spot where Bel fell Gerezman (the Grave). The battle had taken place on the banks of Lake Van. Haik had Bel's body dyed with many colors, and hung from a high place so his wives and children could see it.

 

 

Haik returned to his native land. He bestowed the spoils on Kadmos and the bravest of his followers. Haik remained in his land, and lived many years and died at the age of 400, leaving the rule of the country and his nation to Armenak.

 

 

Historically Bel was the Babylonian King Nemruth. Discovery of boundary stones and Babylonian writings during the time of Nemruth’s reign confirm the battle and Nemruth’s death as described in the legend. The main style Armenian calendar (old Armenian calendar) begins with the year that the battle took place. The use of Bel in the myth is for a reason: Bel was the Babylonian equivalent to Khronos in Greek, and Saturn in Roman Deities. His death is a symbolic representation of the end of the old rule, and beginning of a new pantheon of rulers. This may be why Haik is considered a god in some versions of the story. Just as Khronos was deposed by Zeus, Haik (curiously the favorite of Bel, who promises him the entire world if he will only submit), overthrows the last vestige of the world before the Babel.

 

 

 

 

Aram was the grandson of Gegham and son of the king of Armavir, Armai. Aram was industrious, and loved his country so much so he would rather die than see any destroy his land. Aram became suspicious of the neighboring countries, and gathered together all the warriors skilled in archery, throwing the javelin, and with the sword. With their courage and prowess these warriors could repel an army of fifty thousand.

 

 

At the border of Armenia, Aram met an army of young soldiers from Media, led by Niukar Mahdehs, a very proud and brave man. Like the Kushans, Niukar Mahdehs had succeeded in subjugating Armenia, keeping it under his control for 2 years. Aram surprised Mahdehs’ platoon before sunrise, attacked and destroyed the enemy and took Niukar as prisoner to Armavir.

 

 

In Armavir Aram had him taken to the top of a tower, where they drove a metal spike into his forehead, pinning him to the side of the tower so all could see his body as they entered the city. Aram then captured the kingdom of Media up to Mt. Zarasp and exacted tribute until Ninus became king of Ninevah.

In his heart Ninus desperately sought revenge for the death of his ancestor Bel at the hands of Haik. For many years he had been planning to avenge Bel's death and wipe out Haik's offspring. But, seeing how strong Aram was, Ninus decided to wait, and instead feigned friendship with Aram, the victor over Media. He bestowed on Aram the right to wear a crown of pearls and the title of second king under him.

After fortifying the border on the west of Armenia, Aram led his army south close to Assyria. There he met a man named Barsham, born of giants, who had devastated his country with an army of 40,000-foot soldiers, and 5,000 Calvary. Aram and his army fought Barsham and there ensued a great battle that spread onto Assyrian fields, wherein Aram’s army killed most of their enemy, including Barsham himself. Thereinafter the people who lived on those fields paid tribute to Aram for many years. But they made Barsham a god, and worshipped him.

 

 

Aram gave the Southern part of Armenia bordering Assyria to the Kadmos family, to be head of the region. But the Eastern portion, he gave to the Sisakian family. And Aram, adding to his army 40,000 foot soldiers and 2,000 mounted soldiers, went to the West, to Cappadocia, and took Keyseri (Caesurae), and he established his domination over the regions in the east and the south. He now feared no one. Aram remained in the west for a long time.

 

 

There, in front of him, came Payapis Kaghia Titanian, who had conquered all the countries between the Pontus and Ovkianos (Ocean, or Black/Mediterranean Seas). Aram marched his armies against Payapis and drove him as far as an island on the Asian Sea. After this Aram left a commander called M'shak, who was related to him, in charge of the defense of the region. He gave M’shak 10,000 soldiers and therein returned to Armenia. He ordered the people of the countries he conquered to learn and speak Armenian. For this reason the Greeks called the territory Protean Armenia (First Armenia).

M’shak established the city of M'shagh (Kayseri, Caesurae), named after himself, on the skirts of Mount Argeh. He had the city enclosed with walls and battlements. But the local people, who could not pronounce his name, called it Mazhak.

 

 

Because of Aram’s great deeds, he became famous throughout the land, and the people around his country were called Armen. The Persians and Assyrians called his people “Armenik”. After living a long time, Aram was succeeded by his son Ara or Arai, the handsome.

 

At this time there lived Semiramis (Shamiram in Armenian), the queen of Ninevah. Her husband was Ninus, who came to loathe her for her infidelity, and left his country. Semiramis, who had heard about the fame of the handsome Armenian king Ara, lusted after his image and asked him to come to Ninevah and marry her. When Ara refused, she marched her armies towards Armenia.

 

 

The battle began when Semiramis arrived in the region called Ararat. She ordered her commanders to capture Ara alive, but he was vanquished and killed by one of her sons. His body was found on the battlefield among the other slain soldiers. In order to calm the Armenians, who wanted to continue the fight to avenge his death, Semiramis said, "I have prayed to the gods to lick his wounds and heal him. Ara will revive."

 

 

Semiramis was a sorceress, and she believed in her powers. She was so crazed at his death and desperate for his beauty that she believed she could revive him. When his corpse decayed she became more crazed than before, and had her servants bury it in a deep grave. Dressing one of the men from her retinue of lovers as Ara, she came before the Armenians and said, "Licking his wounds the gods gave life back to Ara, thus fulfilling our deepest desires. Since they have bestowed on us happiness we should exalt them more than before."

 

 

She had a new statue erected to the gods and offered them many sacrifices for saving Ara. The people believed that Ara was revived, and Semiramis was saved from another battle waged against her.

 

 

In order to eternalize her love for Ara, she named his son Karthos after him, who was born from his wife Nuvard and aged twelve at the time. Although he was so young, she made him ruler of Armenia.

 

 

On her way back to Ninevah, the proud Assyrian queen traveled by the eastern shores of Lake Van. Struck by the beauty of the region and bringing thousands of workers and many architects, she had a magnificent summer palace built on the rocky cliffs nearby. (Ed. Note: There is some discrepancy in Khorenatsi's account of the palace and city alluded to Semiramis. The description of the palace walls and a monumental wall with inscriptions described in his account were actually built during the reigns of the Urartian King Menuas and Argishti. Khorenatsi mistakes the palace and new city of Tushpa for one built by Semiramis. Likewise the Semiramis Canal, which was accredited by Khorenatsi as being built under Semiramis' orders, was laid during the Urartu period, on top of earlier 4th-3rd millennium BC canals).

 

 

Khorenatsi goes on to relay that Semiramis remained in the city she had built, appointing as her representative in Assyria and Ninevah, Zoroaster, the religious leader and oracle of the Medes, and as such he ruled the country well for a long time.

 

 

Ninus did not die in Ninevah, and is not buried in the palace, as it is said, but actually fled to Crete. When her children grew up they wanted to seize Semiramis' throne and confiscate her treasury. They openly accused her of disgraceful deeds. This enraged her, and she had all of her children killed with the exception of the youngest son Ninyas, or "Zamassias". She left her throne and her treasury to her lovers instead.

 

 

Therein Zoroaster tried to usurp the throne, and in the ensuing battle Semiramis was defeated which caused her to flee to Armenia. Her son Ninyas saw his chance, and killing her became the ruler of the kingdom. Ara (Karthos, the renamed son of Ara) also died in during the battle, leaving a son named Anushavan.

 

 

Another version of the story of Ara Geghetsik and Semiramis is tied to the mountain that bears Ara's name (Arai Lehr). This version has Ara being cast upon the mountain by Semiramis after he spurns her advances. Semiramis, skilled in black magic, conjured the forces of the night to throw him into the void, and when he landed, his body sank onto the top of the mount, giving it its present contour. Yet another tale says that when Ara died, and Semiramis had him buried at the foot of the mountain, his spirit rose, forming the top of the mountain into his sleeping likeness. The top of the mountain does resemble the contour of a man's face.

 

 

 

Myths include the naming of cities and regions in Armenia beginning with Haik and continuing through his offspring.

 

 

Thus Haik's son Armenak, who went northeast of the land of Haik (Van), settled in 'a valley surrounded by huge mountains with rivers flowing from the west, the waters gushed forth from under rocks at the foot of the mountain, and joined together into rivers. The high mountains were snow-covered in the sun.' Armenak settled in the valley and developed its northern end. He gave the tallest mountain, 'which was youngest among the others', the name Aragats, and the city at its base Aragatsotn (the foot of Aragats).

Armenak had a son named Aramais, who built a city called Armavir on the banks of a river he named Yeraskh (a Persian corruption of Arax). Aramais' son Amassia, settled in Armavir, and had three sons, Paroyr, Gegham and Kholagh. The latter two had cities at the foot of Ararat named after them. Amassia also gave the name "Massis" to Mt. Ararat.

 

 

Gegham had a son (they all had sons) named Armai. Leaving his son (they all leave their sons) at Armavir, Gegham went north to a land next to a lake (Sevan) and there built a city (Lechashen). He called this city Gegh, and gave the lake his own name (Geghamalich). There, his son Sissak was born, who became renowned for his nobility, pride and dignity, as well as for his strength, eloquence and skill as an archer. Gegham gave him many possessions and slaves. Together with lands that stretched from the sea east of his country to the valley where the river Yerash (Arax) descended in fury after having cut through the mountains into forested straits. Sissak settled there, giving it the name of Siunik.

Gegham returned to the valley at the foot of the mountain. He built a city on the steep slopes and named it Geghama after himself. This city was later called Garni after his grandson Garnik.

 

 

To Gegham's son Armai, Aram was born. Aram's martial prowess was admired by all in his realm, and his fame spread throughout the land; it was a tribute to him and his skill sin subjugating his enemies that his people were called Armenians and their country Armenia.

 

 

stop by at teh web link - you will find more info

 

 

http://www.tacentral.com/mythology.asp?story_no=6

[Armo77]

Armenians are Aryan.

Those are Armenians that have a really dark complexion are mixed Armenians.

That’s what I always been told and always have and will believe.. We were once all light complected people..As well was early Persians. Even my Persian friends acknowledge that. We Armenians are a Caucasian, Aryan race believe it or not.

Edited December 12, 2003 by Armo77

[TashnagZinvor]

Armenoids were never blonde haired or blue eyed, and Irano-Afghans were deffinetely swarthy in complextion like the Arabids and South Meditaranneans. Aryan doesnt = anglo...Indians were Aryans as well, yet the sun has browned their skin (those in the north who do indeed have Aryan blood). Armenians are Caucasians, with Aryan language roots(which is what aryan is), and NOT white, white = depigmented, however there are some exceptions in Armenian communities, esp in the west. I posted about Armenian geneology, people should really read facts instead of blurting nonsence, its too common in the Armenian community, it needs to stop. I've linked my post below.

 

 

http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7800

[TashnagZinvor]

Armenoids did not stem from the same as the Persians (The Persians were originally from Essam, but many Medes(Armenids) and heavily Turkish(of southern Turkestan and western China, settled in Iran, as well as later Arabs, Jews, Caucasics, Mongols, Indians, Greeks, and maybe even Russian. There's no doubt youll find this same mixture in Armenia.

 

there seems to be a confusion of the Alpine race, Alpine is scientifically half white, be it any depigmented european factor, and half mongoloid. Many middle easterns are Alpinid, heavily in Turkey, Iraq and Iran, as well as Russia and eastern europe. Alpinid: Large cranial vault, wide deepset eyes, receeding chin, wide cheeks and nose/mouth area...alpinid is very much a valid classification, however it does not justify mongrels or mutts...modern science beleifs sway toward the modern majority = mutts.

 

most caucasians are of mongol lineage, such as Dagestanis, Chechens, Abkhazians, west into Ukraine Tartar, and north into Russia Bashkirs, however there are some such as Ossetians, who speak an ancient language of Sarmatian(one of the oldest Indo-European languages)...It isnt odd they would have middle eastern pigmentation, and armenid features, but many asiatic types live there, sadly to say Armenia isnt exactly a pure nation as it is, so the confusion is understandable.

[Teutonic Knight]

You wouldn't have there any scientific proof would you there mr. dashnak?

Or is that too much to ask for from a swarthy hook nosed so called "Armenoid"?

[Anonymouse]

Asking the question of the "origin" of the Armenian people is like asking the "origin" of the human race. Nevermind that the "Armenian people" have changed throughout their history, and the Armenians of today, pale in comparison to the Armenians during the Artashesian Dynasty.

 

We will never know, but that doesn't deter us from coming up with wild or sometimes exaggerated claims of how we came to be. The religious Armenians see truth in Khorenatsi's Hayk, as the progenitor of the Hay peoples and descending from Japeth. The nationalist historians look at Hayasa, and the linguists look at the Indo-European ( or Aryan ) migrations. It depends from what angle you look at, since you can find evidence to back up essentially each of the above positions.

 

It's funny just reading these names of "Armenoids" or "blond haired blue eyed" or "race". Ultimately, they do no justice nor answer the question of how "Armenians" came to be. A more important question to ask is, how did the present "Armenians" come to be, since the present "Armenians" are nothing like the Armenians of antiquity.

Edited December 13, 2003 by Anonymouse

[Twilight Bark]

Asking the question of the "origin" of the Armenian people is like asking the "origin" of the human race. Nevermind that the "Armenian people" have changed throughout their history, and the Armenians of today, pale in comparison to the Armenians during the Artashesian Dynasty.

 

We will never know, but that doesn't deter us from coming up with wild or sometimes exaggerated claims of how we came to be. The religious Armenians see truth in Khorenatsi's Hayk, as the progenitor of the Hay peoples and descending from Japeth. The nationalist historians look at Hayasa, and the linguists look at the Indo-European ( or Aryan ) migrations. It depends from what angle you look at, since you can find evidence to back up essentially each of the above positions.

 

It's funny just reading these names of "Armenoids" or "blond haired blue eyed" or "race". Ultimately, they do no justice nor answer the question of how "Armenians" came to be. A more important question to ask is, how did the present "Armenians" come to be, since the present "Armenians" are nothing like the Armenians of antiquity.

Yes, I now just shake my head and move on when hear/read "Oh we were these blond, blue-eyed people, and then ...." or variations thereof. I also agree that the question of "origin" is almost always misformed. Often, people take the anthropological route, which of course leads straight to Africa, along with the rest of humans. Ho hum. However, there is a well-posed question of Armenian "origins": when was the first time that a nation calling itself "hay" formed? I tend to associate it with Hayasa-Azzi, simply because the name fits, and it is the first time that the name by which we call ourselves is recorded. And Khorenatsi, when filtered and interpreted properly (i.e. not literally) is in fact consistent with much of independent sources.

 

As for today's Armenians not being anything like the ancient ones, there is probably some truth in that, although "nothing like" is too strong. Culturally, we certainly transformed into an almost unrecognizable form (but then, which nation hasn't?). However, the lack of interest in dominating/subjugating the neighboring peoples and minding our own business appear to be consistent themes for much of Armenian history. And if "nothing like" is meant in ancestral terms, I have to disagree. We may be different even in our physical features for all I know (although I doubt it), but the reason is not necessarily that the original Armenians got replaced by newcomers. We certainly have undergone a "selection", in which those individuals and families more in tune with the invading imperialistic cultures opted to assimilate into them. We are what's left of that "selection", and in that sense we may be considered "different".

Edited December 13, 2003 by Twilight Bark

[Anonymouse]

Yes, I now just shake my head and move on when hear/read "Oh we were these blond, blue-eyed people, and then ...." or variations thereof. I also agree that the question of "origin" is almost always misformed. Often, people take the anthropological route, which of course leads straight to Africa, along with the rest of humans. Ho hum. However, there is a well-posed question of Armenian "origins": when was the first time that a nation calling itself "hay" formed? I tend to associate it with Hayasa-Azzi, simply because the name fits, and it is the first time that the name by which we call ourselves is recorded. And Khorenatsi, when filtered and interpreted properly (i.e. not literally) is in fact consistent with much of independent sources.

 

As for today's Armenians not being anything like the ancient ones, there is probably some truth in that, although "nothing like" is too strong. Culturally, we certainly transformed into an almost unrecognizable form (but then, which nation hasn't?). However, the lack of interest in dominating/subjugating the neighboring peoples and minding our own business appear to be consistent themes for much of Armenian history. And if "nothing like" is meant in ancestral terms, I have to disagree. We may be different even in our physical features for all I know (although I doubt it), but the reason is not necessarily that the original Armenians got replaced by newcomers. We certainly have undergone a "selection", in which those individuals and families more in tune with the invading imperialistic cultures opted to assimilate into them. We are what's left of that "selection", and in that sense we may be considered "different".

It's not simply a matter of "some truth" in that both the genetic composition and cultural characteristics have changed, it is simply a fact of history, for history is not a certain point in time, but rather a process. I know it's not a comfortable position to take for me, nor was it easy for me to come to this conclusion, but in all fairness with regard after much time with Late Antiquity both in Europe, and Armenian history, I cannot see anything to the contrary.

 

Todays "Armenians" are very different from the "Armenians" of the Yervantid Dynasty, or the Artashesians. While in name we may still carry the label, history nonetheless, especially in the region of the Caucasus, has gone through many changes. Sure, we may somewhat have genetic markers or allele types that might resemble the Yervantids, but that's after you cherry pick the genetic study, since any genetic study can be cherry picked and focused on only certain gene frequencies while ignoring others. However this is not my point, my point is that the term "nation" is misused.

 

The word "nation" in Random House Websters College Dictionary is defined as:

 

nation, na body of people associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own.

 

Thus Armenian history has been one of disunity rather than unity. Thus the idea of an "Armenian" nation is sketchy at best. Right now we have an Armenian nation, however to suggest that there has always been an "Armenian nation" and project ourselves into the past, would be reducing history to a single point in time, and I can't agree with that since studying Armenian history the name has been interchangeable throughout. When an Arab Muslim can convert to Christianity and call himself Armenian, or certain nakharar houses allying with emirs, I cannot refer to that as a "nation" but rather whatever is politically beneficial at the time, is what people will seek. With each generation both the idea of what it has meant to be "Armenian" has changed, as well as the people.

 

However we tend to view history through the present, by projecting ourselves into the past, and this isn't just for Armenian history, this is for Marxists who view all history as a "class struggle" or "Womens history" which attempts to project itself into the past, or "African American" history. In essence we try to create history, where there was none. Rather than study the past for what it is, we look at it through the present and try to make it fit into our preconceived notions of what history ought to be.

 

Cheers.

[Twilight Bark]

Anonymouse,

 

"There is some truth in it" means that we are not entirely different, but have inevitably undergone further "mixing". I don't know if that bothers you, but it doesn't bother me. As for cherrypicking "evidence", focusing on a few muslims that may have assimilated into Armenians does not all of a sudden mean that the whole concept of Armenianness lost its meaning. Such a stance reflects more a mindset that took a 180-degree turn from expecting absolute purity, coherence, and profundity from his "nation", and upon seeing that it cannot be so, rejects the whole notion, without allowing for any nuances and grayness, or a natural evolution. To suggest that Armenians existed without a collective consciousness that can be called a "nation" until 1991 or 1900 is folly. They did not, and still largely do not fit into the european notion of "nationalism", but that's a good thing. Unless you are only able to define nation narrowly with a single tyrant at the top, ruling the whole collective by himself, with a strong army and the rest. That fits the european idea of a "nation", and I feel under no obligation to follow it.

 

And I wish you could provide any evidence for your claim that we only have traces of ancestry from 500 BC (and I would like to remind you that Yervantids are not the beginning of Armenian national coherence; it goes back to at least as early as the time of Hayasa, 1350 BC), and that people came in and went out of Armenian collective in such numbers as to render any meaningful tie to the "original" Armenians nonexistent. While I agree that it is the case for Greek and Turkish cultures because of their imperial and dominating natures, I reject the notion that the same applies to Armenians. The incentives were not there. Of course there were exceptions, but the overall flow of people was overwhelmingly from Armenians to non-Armenians, not the other way around.

 

You can be objective without taking extreme stances. That is to say, the sign that you are on the right path is not the "discomfort" you sense from Armenians. That discomfort can be caused by false beliefs, or simply by being ill at ease with an insinuation that is illogical.

 

If you are not following my reasoning, that means we are talking past each other, and that we better stop discussing the issue since both cases have been made as properly as time allows.

Edited December 13, 2003 by Twilight Bark

[Arpa]

Pardon my lack of knowledge :) but are we not talking about two distinct entities here , i.e. nation and ethnicity?

Nationhood as we understand it now is a relatively new concept while ethnicity goes all the way back to the days of Haik and Ara.

There may be just one other people besides us that (deliberateley)confuses the two, and if WE insist on it our destiny will be as doomed as theirs'!!!

Is Turkey a nation? How many ethnic groups does it include?

What is an Armenian?

A citizen of Armenia? Anyone who professes to be one?

As far as citizenship, read about the exodus. As to ethnicity, is AmericaHye, aka Khodja, aka Hagarag really an Armenian? :)

[Historynow2002]

I'm new to this history discussion.

I'm particularly interested in the origins of

Haye or Hayk.

 

I'm willing to see the interest in Hayk as

having a separate channel of transmission

from the actual ethnicity of the Armenians.

 

For example, I've read somewhere that the

Armenians could be an Indo-European people

who followed along with the Cimmerian or

Scythian movements into the region of

Armenia.

 

While the interest in Hai/Hayk may have

come from contact with a branch of the

Medes.

 

The advantage/disadvantage of these scenarios

is that we know very little about ANY of these

three groups (Cimmerians, Scythians, Medes).

 

But if we were to focus just on Hai/Hayk....where

does this name seem to come from?

 

George

[Arpa]

I'm new to this history discussion.

I'm particularly interested in the origins of

Haye or Hayk.

But if we were to focus just on Hai/Hayk....where

does this name seem to come from?

 

George

For Haik and others look here;

 

http://www.angelfire.com/hi/Azgaser/AR.html

[Teutonic Knight]

Armenoid does not = Armenian.

It's a stupid term anyway. Armenoid is supposed to be a Dinaric except instead of the Nordic/Alpine elements it is replaced with Irano-Afghan/Semitic.

 

Armenoids:

Chief Minister of Indian Kashmir, Mr. Mufti Mohammad Syed

http://www.expressindia.com/kashmir/polls2002/slide/grfx/49.jpg

 

Pro-terrorist leader, Abdul Khani

http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15-7-2000/Bhat.jpg

 

This is what the so called "Armenoid" is. The Armenian type was prominant in Romans and ha snothing to do with these types.

Damn Coon for bringing this up, before him nobody even used this word.