Does Armenia have history?

[564312]

Arpa

 

I agree with you that Jews and Armenians differ with their history. But Abraham and Moses a myth? If that is what you think & I do not know your beliefs in God. Since we are discussing Armenian history..what about Christianity? Wasn’t Christianity that played a big role in Armenian history? Then it seems that you are contradicting Armenian history and Christianity since it is based on the Bible.. Abraham, Moses, Jesus?. Concluding that not only Armenians being the first Christian nation but half of the globe are morons.

[Sip]

That one, is an understatement

[Rubo]

To the moderators

It is ironic that Martin can easily and openly spam on this forum and yet I am yet to see someone with enough integrity to say something. Yes I am disappointed on the moderators selective censoring. Was it Domino just on the other thread talking about banning spamers?

[Azat]

Rubo,

Where did you see MJ spam? I would like to see that too. Can you please point us to it with a link.

 

You and nairi for some reason always seem to post things to create controversy with MJ.

 

MJ, will you please stop calling people idiots.

[Rubo]

Azat jan, you saw it correct, the guy called me idiot and he said shot up to Nairi.Does this mean I must agree with everything like the most of the forum members with MJ so the "Tsar" does not get abset?I think for myself and MJ or whoever does not deter me of expressing my mind.

[Azat]

Rubo, nobody is happy with the name calling and the forum mods are considering what to do about it.

 

Noone is asking you to agree with MJ or anyone else. Noone is asking not to post. Do as you please. If you feel like posting a reply, feel free to do it.

 

I am just hoping that we can all show some constraints and stop the whole arguing for the sake of argument posts.

 

However, with all that said there is no spamming going on this forum so far.

[MJ]

I'll try. But they have to transform, too.

[THOTH]

Rubo -

 

I completley understand how you are feeling.

 

MJ is a good guy, I think, he just isn't acting like one.

 

Aparently he will only be placated if all of us stop posting as we do not measure up to his standards...we are consumed by idle chit chat and are not able to report what the Minister of the Academie Hyesais said over last nights dinner...he wishes for a "higher caliber of poster" - OK I understand that, I am with him there, all the way, I do smpathise. And I also wish I were as rich as Donald Trump and had a wavy haired, long legged, large cup size blond bimbo wife (OK - even girlfriend I could accept) hanging on my arm wherever I went...but sometimes we must make the best with what we have.

 

Are we really so lame that we are beyond hope or reason? Maybe. But if so (if this is the conclusion reached) then I advise Mr MJ to leave us to our bliss and to pursue his utopian dream elsewhere. Sure - posters and forum environments I encounter never measure up to my ideal standards...and this is indicative of many things...things that cannot be changed by sniping at posters in ugly ways. Frustated as I might be myself sometimes I have never resorted to such behavior that I can recall....thats just giving up isn't it? And if giving up it is I would ask that we not have to suffer as well - but maybe I am being selfish - maybe I am not truly feeling MJ's pain - perhaps we should be reaching out to him to help in some way...its a tough one...boy I wish I knew all the answers (like MJ does)....maybe things would be easier...then again maybe not...

[Rubo]

MJ”I have no problem neither with Jews nor with Israel. They are just irrelevant in the context of the past, the present and the future of our Nation. Our paths do not cross.”

I do assume your hands off approach about issues concerning Armenians unimportant to me but when you say

“They are just irrelevant in the context of the past, the present and the future of our Nation. Our paths do not cross.” You are now assuming the sole spokesperson speaking on Armenian behalves as what is relevant and what is not?

For the record lets just look at the past and present issues with the Jews and I can assure you they are not figment of anybody’s imagination.

1. Israeli denial of AG

2. Jewish lobby efforts against AG recognition

3. Latest land issues concerning the Jerusalem patriarchy

The land issue did get partially solved and thanks to concern Armenian activists which you shamefully call them schizophrenic on every opportunity. You hardly speak for Armenian interests and I do suggest dropping the posturing.

[MJ]

Some further thoughts may be warranted.

 

There are few prominent teams in the Hye Forum which generate most of the activity and every statistical new comer jumps in to contemplate on these topics:

 

1. Jews and Israel

2. Turks and Turkey

3. USA taking over the world

4. Armenian women dating black men

 

One more time, I would call these expression evidence of deep schizophrenia and identity problem.

 

There are only a handful of people contemplating about Armenia, trying to understand the Armenian History beyond that of symbolism and the cliches, identifying themselves with Armenia, being aware of the Armenian History in the first place, being able to relate to the fact that Armenia’s past and present problems, and unless something changes, the future problems, have fundamental reasons and those are not "our barbarian neighbors," but the fluff associated with our mainstream identity and self-consciousness.

 

There are plenty of people coming here to state that "Armenians are the first Christian nation in History," etc. Sort of a poll of "loyalty" – registering a check mark.

 

A couple of words about the History of Armenia: I am sure that 900 years ago (and on) we thought that we were building our history – we were allowed to have our churches and even build more than ever (Why not?), we were allowed to eat "dolma," drink for the history of Armenia, etc. I am sure we felt that we were building our history and serving our Homeland, otherwise it is hard to understand how could we peacefully surrender it. It seems that we still are having hard time to understand that we were building the history of Byzantine or Ottoman Empire, or the economy of Iran, Transylvania, New Nakhichevan, etc. I am sure some would say this is our history. Well, where is it or where are we in that history, then?

 

The moral of my argument is that when there is no receiving end, we don’t build history but we waist it. When our historic endeavors are not anchored at the Homeland or do not serve the Homeland or have no purpose, or if under the best scenario the purpose is the survival, under that best scenario we create historic symbols, symbolic nation and symbolic history. This is about the same as taking drags to feel good.

 

A couple of words about Ali or some others. He may or may not take one or another phrase and use it in a way he pleases. It doesn’t matter. It shouldn’t bother us because it really doesn’t matter. It is only a manifestation of our strength to reevaluate our past, our History, our present, to shake things, to question our most "sacred" symbols so that we can build a new future short of the faults of the past. Those who are afraid to shake the questionable past should not count for the future. I think we can meet this challenge and we should. If we wouldn’t, we would resemble the cowardice of our neighbor with 70 million population.

 

I would also like to add, in conclusion, that I am tempted to use the "i" word one more time. But being a nice guy , I would like to respect the authority of the Moderators, especially when they attempt to step up to the plate.

 

BTW, Thoth, thank you for feeling my pain. But you'd better share it.

[MJ]

Azat,

 

Can I use the word "sick?"

[nairi]

I'm sorry. I won't let it happen again. I promise.

 

Nairi

[Boghos]

Unfortunately some other people have the same stupid habit.

 

[ November 22, 2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[MJ]

Me?

[Twilight Bark]

I am not sure if it took me long or not, but having previously made an argument along those lines about our collective behavior, I confess to being one of those idiots. So be it.

 

I am unaware of many instances where Armenians attempted to take other people's wealth or land, while many "imperial" cultures saw it as their right to plunder, massacre and oppress. If we are no different from the aggressive nations in our "peacefulness", then it must mean we are particularly lousy at implementing our lust for dominion and other nations' wealth. Any evidence showing that we tried (alas failed) nearly as often as the aggressors would go a long way in curing me out of my idiocy. Until then, I will remain so ...

 

Oh well.

[MJ]

Dear TB,

 

I am saddened with your misinterpretation of what I have said.

[THOTH]

MJ - your points are very well taken (& well spoken as usual). But consider this: Some of us are here for the (noble/worthwhile/relevant)reasons you state - at least in part. Others may be here for more - for lack of a better word recreational purposes. This is just reality. I respect your ideals and aspirations - I really do - but you cannot expect everyone to live up to them in all or even most cases. Perhaps your influence and that of others who are likewise educated/enlightned/knowledgable etc can raise the bar a bit...this was at least somewhat an attraction for me when I joined the forum - as was the recreational side (not in a bad way I hope). I understand that your patience has been wearing thin...but I think you have gone too far and in some cases are putting down good people undeservadly. No one of us is perfect.

 

You must also realize that you are not the typical person - not even the typical Armenian (and not just you - but many here I see in this way). I won't begin to attempt to convince anyone that I know anything about what the typical Armenian is (beyond the fact that your not it)...I mean you are an intellectual - this is a rare person in any society. You care about history, culture, society, and think deeper then most who are primarily worried about more mudane things - including dating, comparative worth (versus other folks), wild and entertaining conspiracy theories and this sort of thing. You also care. You care about who Armenians are as a people and you believe we are special in a way beyond the cliches. But (in saome ways I think that) you are truly a minority. Your standards, demands on yourself (and others) are high - higher then most are willing to ever set. (Not sure I am expressing these thoughts fully/accuratly but with post exercise euphoria combined with nearly finishing this wonderful Super Tuscan I've been wroking on tonight...well I have lowered my own bar..at least in terms of effort). My point is I don't think this is a new thing. I think (most) Armenians (throughout history) have always been more interested in providing for their families, enjoying themselves and getting by versus getting worked up with the type of issues that exite you, others here, me to some extent etc. (perhaps why out and out conquest...even central governemt/organization have often elluded Armenians - don't know?) So in any cross section of Armenians (such as might be expected on an Armenian web forum) you likely will have many more who are interested in what you may view as banal or otherwise uninteresting - (even silly perhaps - bugblater beasts & such) subjects and interests etc. But everyojne has opinions (particularly Armenians) and because as a people the Genocide is such a central issue we have some historical interests - etc - Thus most forum members have some perspective or views on these matters & related (religion etc, etc) - some of these views have a basis in something beyond headline level (you aren't necessarily the only person who reads or gets involved in things and you have no monopoly on truth either...)- but I aknowlegde that some do not...and I am not saying just ignore when there are blatent falsehoods & such - but just be a bit more understanding...and realise that not everyojne is operating on/at your level..and cannot be expected to. Don't as well think that you know everything...all that being said I share your hope for higher quality subjects/posting & relevancy...but don't necissarily expect it for the mass of posts etc...(and it perhaps would be an improvement if I just learned to spell one day...)

[Guest Fadi]

Martin, what are you expecting from the typical diasporan Armenian ?

[MJ]

The ony reasonable thing - Nothing.

[Guest Fadi]

I was expecting this same exact answer.

 

But you know what ? I do not believe you, because such an answer won't explain your rage. With such a believe you'll be a Baliozian, and you won't have that rage in you.

[gamavor]

The answer to the turk above that frequently pisses me off with stupid questions that even 1 grader would better answer is the following:

 

Greeks and Romans have long co-existed not always peacefully and at times it was hard to distinguish Greek from Roman. They both represented one culture. Bizantium was nothing but Eastern Roman Empire - at least this was the legally designated name for Buzantium.

 

Turks assimilated easily in Iran and other Middle Eastern countries because they already have been under strong influence of Islam.

 

The reasons why tatars, bashkirs, nogai, chechen and other crap couldn't assimilate in Russia are quite obvious.

 

In the case of Turks and Armenians - it was a clash between two different worlds. Same is valid between Greeks and Turks. Same is valid between turks and Bulgarians or Serbs. I don't want my enemies to look as I look unless they choose so.

For the same reason turks (even today) living outside of Turkey could not , and will not assimilate except a very little number of them.

[Boghos]

No, if I have something to tell you I just dial.

 

[ November 23, 2002, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[nairi]

I think it does matter when it stands in the way of normalizing ties.

 

Entirely agreed.

[MJ]

Domino,

 

I can assure you that when I am enraged, you would see my rage knocking your door at the locations called "Don't know."

 

P.S. And it wouldn't look like Christmas gift.

 

[ November 23, 2002, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Rubo]

You are a child MJ (read the above)and I was foolish enough to take you seriously. Looks like you got few die hard MJ cronies here as well, pathetic! Nothing sadder and worse then grown man saying “yes “ “I agree”-Boghos- “you are the higher caliber thinker bla bla”-Thoth to every childish mumblings you utter. It is really sad with exception of few I have not read anything original but predigested crap. Pity…