Homshentsik (Hemshinli)

[Twilight Bark]

I have been meaning to bring up the subject of Homshentsik. I got reminded of it when Boghos quipped about them in a recent post. Here is a link to Harvard that contains very informative documents on Homshentsik (Hemshinli). They are the islamized remnants of an Armenian community on the mountains of the eastern Black Sea coast of Turkey. The unusual thing about the Hemshinli is that they have kept the Armenian language and many of the customs, but not the identity.

[bellthecat]

They may have not kept an Armenian identity, but they have kept THEIR identity, which is more important I think.

 

However, except for some specific cultural or geographical words they seem to no longer speak Armenian.

[MosJan]

Thank you for bring up this subject of Homshentsik

 

I my self – I’m interested in their Music and musical instruments.

I have been collecting musical instruments for some time now, and one of the amazing thinks is haw they have preserved their instruments .

One of my last findings was a Hamshna-Zurna that was made in 1890s.

 

I would love to learn more about this amazing people, once again thank you for bring up this subject and for teh link.

 

MOvses

[MosJan]

What makes Hamshna-Zurna so much different then the others – the loud sound – it’s the loudest zurna - + Tuning + Size + Fingering chart, other then that it’s the same concept us most of the zurns in the world.

 

Us for the origins of this instrument - no one can say who was the inventor – it’s used all around the world for long time, everyone has changed / modified it to it’s use, and now we have Turkish zurns – Rumanian zurns – Bulgarian zurns – each and every one is similar – but each and every one has different sound.

 

Armenian zurna has been in our coulter for long time 2800-3200 years, it was recorded and defined by Komitas in bingeing of 1900s, in 1950s it was modified by Karlen Matevosyan (MKS) he has modified the sound – tuning – fingering – his zurns sound even louder then some larger zornas made by the others, it is a fane tuned instrument.

 

MOvses

[KGrigory]

I think it is worthwile to reach out to them, for example the essay by Vaux mentions that some in Russia identify themselves as Armenians now, which is good, due to the small amount of our population we need more people in our ranks. Thats just my opinion, but I think many people will disagree. Many Armenians will say that since they are not Christian then they are not Armenian. But maybe if we reach out to them in time they will start to identify with us and maybe even convert back. But I do not see a way of how the Armenians now can help out the Hemshin.

 

Konstantin

[sen_Vahan]

"Alright people, do you think the Homshentsik are Armenians? "

 

That's a good question. I just want to give some information (from my own experience) about Ho(a)mshentsik.

First, in Armenia they are called Hamshenahayer (hamshenarmenians), just like vrazahayer(georgian armenians), parskahayer (persian armenians), etc.

There is A LOT of hamshenahayer in Black Sea cost of Russia - Adler (mainly), Sochi, and in whole Krasnodarskiy Kray. Armenians in that region are well known and they are known as hamshenahayer that came from Turkey.

Last time i was in Sochi was summer 2000 (with my brother). In Adler Airport before flying to Moscow we met a group of domestic hamshenahayer 50-60 years old. When they were talking to each other we did not understand anything!!(except hayhoyanks) That was a surprise because we met many hamshens in Lazarevskaya of Sochi Oblast' and their accent was not that bad. They said the problem was that they came from Abchazia. And their language was changed more than of those living in Russia.

We attended some concerts in Armenian cultural centers in Sochi and those dancing and singing there were hamshens - with specific songs and dances. But I can say that Artsax Armenians' dances and songs are also somewhat specific.

I think they all are Armenians and they kept their identity.

Vahan

[sen_Vahan]

just one more comment: When we talked to these guys in Adler in usual Armenian we were understood. And when they talked slowly trying to explain what they were saying it became lot easier to undestand them.

Vahan

[Twilight Bark]

Dear Vahan,

I think you are referring to Hamshenahays that resisted islamization to begin with. Bert Vaux does say that a good number of the Hemshin Armenians fled from the region and settled elsewhere in response to forced islamization. Those must be the Hamshenahays that you have encountered. Then perhaps the turkish term Hemshinli is more appropriate for referring specifically to the islamicized Hemshin Armenians. Then I re-state my question to the forum: Do you consider the Hemshinli as Armenians, and do you think it is worthwhile to try to reach out to them? And I will add another question: Do you think you can accept them as Armenian only if they convert to Christianity, or is it OK to be a muslim Armenian as long as they acknowledge their roots and wish to be accepted as they are?

[Twilight Bark]

I respectfully disagree. They are preserving a garbled, severely lobotomized "identity". Sort of like an accident victim with partial amnesia: The ability of the victim to remember and realize that he is a distinct individual is certainly a good thing compared with an inability to do so. But it is only the first step in the chain of "good" things to happen to the patient, who still cannot remember where or who his family is.

 

That is a shame, but not surprising I am afraid. Then time is running out for Armenians to make a connection with these people. I wonder how the people on this forum feel about the Hemshinli. Alright people, do you think the Homshentsik are Armenians? Do you think it is worthwhile to reach out to them?

 

TB

 

P.S. Bellthecat, please give us more first-hand information about the Hemshinli. Do you have Hemshinli friends or relatives? Your perspective would be a very valuable contribution.

[bellthecat]

But what is important is what they say, not in what language they say it.

 

http://www.turkishdailynews.com/jpeg18/mhp-map.jpg

 

(Hamshen is in Rize)

[bellthecat]

The zurna is not really a specifically Hemshinli instrument, it is just a black sea instrument. The tulum (aka tulum duduk), a type of bagpipe, is played specifically in Hemshin, and a little bit in Laz populated areas. But it was more widespread in the past, including in georgia (maybe it still is - if anyone knows something more). I have some pictures which I might post in the future.

[aurguplu]

dear everyone,

 

in turkey, the term "hemşinli" exclusively refers to the hemşin armenians (please note that there are two hemşins in the black sea region: hemşin proper and çamlıhemşin. if i remember correctly hemşin proper must be further southwest of çamlıhemşin).

 

"hemşinli" is used almost as a "euphemism" by both hemşinlis and non-hemşinlis while alluding to their armenian roots. in the recent past, people would say thaht the hemşinlis spoke armenian but did not know that their language was armenian, and would only realise that it was when they would come to istanbul and open up restaurants, and hear the armenian clientele speak armenian and understand them (someone who is very knowledgeable in these matters - a turk who speaks armenian - once told me that the hemşinlis know very well their armenian origins but prefer to hide it for obvious reasons).

 

the hemşin region is traditionally left-wing i understand, and they have been on very bad terms with their laz neighbours who call them "kalın kaburgalı ermeni" (thick-ribbed armenian) (armenians in turkey have a physical type that tends to differ slightly from neighbouring non-armenian populations, except in areas where there has been extensive conversion and intermarriage). they appear to have converted to islam in the last two or three centuries because they were buckling under the heavy "belief tax (cizye)", but many people, especially those from the region (like the laz) suspect that they secretly keep to their old religion and therefore do not intermarry with them much. of course, like with everything, attitudes are esaing up, albeit slowly. i have no idea how many hemşinlis there are in turkey, but i guess the number is nowhere near the "millions" once claimed by a contributor to this forum about a year ago. most of the info above comes from sevan nişanyan's book "herkesin bilmediği olağanüstü yerler" (extraordinary places few know about).

 

cheers,

[Boghos]

My answer to TB´s question is very simple: whoever has any reasonable ground to claim he is Armenian, is an Armenian. In other words: if you consider yourself Armenian, than you are an Armenian. This is a decision that should be left to the individual in our case. We have a large and complex diaspora, nobody has the right to say who is Armenian or not, except for his own case.

[Twilight Bark]

I fully agree with you. In this case, however, the individuals in question (the Hemshinlis) would in general not want to be considered Armenians. Therefore, to nudge their current self-view toward acknowledging and embracing their Armenian ancestry requires a very sympathetic approach by those who do call themselves Armenian. Such sympathy and caring would only be generated if a big enough number of Armenians consider the Hemshinli as proper Armenians to embrace and cherish. That is why the views of Armenians other than the Hemshinli individuals are important in this particular context.

[Arpa]

=========

 

Boghos, it is a shame that you are not judge and jury about armenianism. This is not in sarcasm. I mean it sincerely.

Several years ago I was talking to a scientist from Armenia. This was even before the breakdown of the SU. I don't remember how the conversation got to the deifinition of an Armenian, while I was arguing that "an Armenian is he who professes to be one", this scientist who professed to be a non-bleiver, an atheist, who considered religion and Christianity to be nothing but superstition, expressed the idea that he would find it very difficult to accept some one who did not subscribe to Christianity, even more specifically to the Apostolic Church, as an Armenian. Go figure! Its been so long that we don't even remember what an Armenian would be without having to subscribe to a building with a cross on top.

 

When Bert Vaux's article appeared in the media I wrote a somewhat angry letter commenting on our assumption based on the fact that the Hamshenites "still preserve the word Astvats in their vocabulary and that they still remember such holidays as Vardavar etc.", it is a wishful thinking on our part that they may yet be salvaged. They may. If we modify our definition of Armenianism, but even more so if our church and clergy would send missionaries to convince them how and why it is better to be an Armenian. As of now, I am sure those Hamshenites are quite satisfied with their lot, specially in the light that Armenia is not a Utopia yet and being an Armenian is not one of the easiest ways of existence. What if those Hamshenites express the desire to get back to their ethnic roots on condition that religion not be an issues? Would you, Boghos, and all the Boghoses of armenialand accept them as such and let them build mosques in Yerevan? Lastly, Can we make them say "blessed are those who profess to Armenian", just like the Turks say "Ne mutlu Turk um deyene". Would our bishops and vardapets leave their penthouses and Cadillacs in NY and LA and preach to the Hamshenites?

 

As Vahan says the Hamshentsis speak Hamsheni Barbar which belongs to the western Armenian family of dialects, i.e. the "k@" family as opposed to the "oum" family. They have many diphthongs such as "a" as in "bad", "oe" as in the French "boeuf" etc.

Ali can corroboarate this. In the Hamshen region of Rize there is a mountain 2937 meters high that even today is labeled as Kackar(Khachkar) Dag in maps, and Ardehen (Ardeshen, as we have seen before the -shen ending is distinctly Armenian as it means "built by") city on the Black Sea.

 

Hamshen, the original name was Hamamshen, a semi autonomous pricipality is believed to have been named after Hamam Amaduni together with his brother Shapuh Amatuni (I don't know where the Hamam name comes from). During 789-790 AD these two princes to escape Arab invasion and persecution, together with 12,000 of their subjects, moved mostly from Artaz region of Vaspurakan and settled on the coast of the Black Sea. They were granted land by Konstantin VI of Byzantium where they established Hamamshen. (I mentioned above that that Mountain is the turkified form of Khachkar, this reference mentions it as "Kajkar Ler" (brave-stone, or could it be that it is "GajKar,i.e. chalk/gypsum)..... to make it short; the Hamshenites were forcefully islamized in late 19th and early 20th centuries, since at the beginning of the 19th c. they were still mostly Christian. Until the early 1900's the prinipality had maintained its semi-autonomou status, albeit heavily taxed. During the Russo Turkish war of 1877-78 many Hamshenites were either exiled or moved to Abkhazia, Crimea and Russia.

[sen_Vahan]

"Several years ago I was talking to a scientist from Armenia. This was even before the breakdown of the SU. I don't remember how the conversation got to the deifinition of an Armenian, while I was arguing that "an Armenian is he who professes to be one",

this scientist who professed to be a non-bleiver, an atheist, who considered religion and Christianity to be nothing but superstition,expressed the idea that he would find it very difficult to accept some one who did not subscribe to Christianity, even more specifically to the Apostolic Church, as an Armenian. "

 

Arpa, what is that scientist's name? Just my curiosity.

Vahan

[KGrigory]

Hello Ali,

can you clarify on how the physical type of Armenians differs from other non-Armenians in the region

 

thanks

[Boghos]

I agree with you that it will be impossible or nearly so for the Hamshenites to go back to their ethnic roots. First and foremost because as you said, they probably have no motivation to do so. I feel that all the talk about this "silent minority" in Turkey is at best wishful thinking.

 

We probably should look at them as being part of the most assimilated parts of the diaspora such as early Polish and Hungarian Armenians. The fact that they are geographically in historical Armenian is a mere coincidence in this case, as not only them but millions of others will not easily give up the "Ne mutlu Turkum diyene" (which is another example of Ataturk's skillful nation building effort...).

 

As for religion, the role of the Armenian church today is a very interesting phenomenon per se. Its power in Armenia significantly increased after independence as one of the few organized, hierarchized, widely present institutions that was suddenly unleashed. And that represented somewhat of a counterpoint to the previous system. But it has no sense of mission beyond what it had been doing in Soviet times in Armenia and the diaspora. Of course there are exceptions within the church, but there always are exceptions anyway. Perhaps in the future the church might revert to a more missionary type work, since it is fighting an uphill battle in the diaspora where there is freedom of religion. But perhaps not. The Armenian Church seems to believe that its "national mission" is a mandate of God, and not a mandate of the people. So, the most we can hope when we meet an Armenian cleric is that he is polite, well educated and has a good sense of humour. Helping bringing back those that are on the verge of leaving or have already done so is beyond the realm of what could be deemed reasonable.

 

Dear Arpa, thank you for your always interesting historical background on issues.

[Twilight Bark]

While I agree with virtually everything that has been said in this thread, the reason why it is "beyond reasonable" is also the reason why we don't have Armenians that climb the highest mountains before others, explore the scary and unknown places before the rest, and why in general we have a hyper-realist (not to call it "pessimistic") outlook on life ("never mind, it would never work"). And I am not saying that I am any better. On the other hand, if a few big-wig Armenians made some serious noise about the Hemshinli, it would lead to a serious reaction in Turkey (naturally indignant and negative). That is all you need to at least put the issue into the consciousness of the Hemshinli. I would find any effort at religious "conversion" thoroughly tasteless. It is high time to free the Armenian identity from the church. If they like what they see, they can convert; or if they don't care about religion, that should be fine. Is it truly so impossible to let the Hemshinli know that we would eagerly accept them? I am not 100% sure. I am not talking about immigration to poor Armenia or imposing a now-alien religion. Re-connecting to one's ancestors and ancestral culture may be a strong enough motivation for many Hemshinli. After all, there is no advantage (and indeed plenty of heartbreak) in viewing oneself as a Kurd in Turkey; yet many do it anyway. Anyway, I do agree that "it would never work", not because it wouldn't but because we are the way we are.

 

TB

[Arpa]

Re-connecting to one's ancestors and ancestral culture may be a strong enough motivation for many Hemshinli. After all, there is no advantage (and indeed plenty of heartbreak) in viewing oneself as a Kurd in Turkey; yet many do it anyway. Anyway, I do agree that "it would never work", not because it wouldn't but because we are the way we are.

TB

==========

Tsk, tsk TB.

Why the long face!!

Is pessimism and fatalism permanently etched in our bones?

It may have as well. It has been so long that it has become part and parcel of our genetic coding.

We just commemorated (I won't say "celebrated") 1700 years of DARKNESS. 1700 years may be a long time to wipe the slate and start all over. But this is the 21st century. Or is it? We've only just begun! The average Armenian is more educated and sophisticated than the best of the clergy. They have to answer to their master(s). What master do we have to answer? For much too long we had lost our nationhood, reduced to a mere denomination, now we are on our way to rediscover our nationhood, with all its benefits and pitfalls. Church and state would best be partners, not rivals, the latter tending to the citizens while the former better tend to the faithful, a majority of the population would fall somewhere in between.

This reminds of a story told in Ronald Suny's book Looking Toward Ararat.

Hovsep Emin was a wealthy Armenian from India who in 1759 had the vision of uniting the nation and wake it up to throw off centuries of oppression and submission. He made it his mission to shuttle between Moscow and other capitals to convince the rulers to consolidate the Armenian lands, east and west. He also traveled the entire where Armenians lived on a white stallion. When Armenian peasants saw him approach on his steed they ran and hid as they knew that a man on a handsome horse could only be an Ottona commissar or a tax collector. At one village an intrepid Armenian peasant stood the ground and the following describes the encounter;

(Later in a private meeting with the village head Emin[pretending to be a Turkish officer] asked why they opposed him riding alone, and they were against being warriors or acing freely, the headman answered]"Sir, our liberty is in the next world; our king is Jesus Christ". Upon the question; "Who told you that"? They answered;"The Holy Fathers of the Church, who say, the Armenian nation has been the subject to the Mohametans from the creation of the world, an must remain so till the day of resurrection; otherwise we would soon drive the Othmans out of our country"

There is more to the story...

Do we still believe in those crack prophesies propagated by a people who would also have us believe that the universe was "created" three thousand forty years, 247 days, 9 hours 32 minutes and 59 seconds ago?

It is also curious that in those parts of the world the oppressors have always been those who outright dismiss and reject Jesus' teachings!

[MosJan]

Of Topic

 

Arpa is Hovsep Emin the same Armenia who left all of his wealth to United Armenia ???

 

I remember yeas a go some one was saying that an Armenian in India has left all of his wealth to United Armenia, soon after his death many other Armenians of India did the same and Indian government promos them that this money will be gave to Free-independent-Armenia.

 

most of the $$$ was collected by CCCP - all of the movies and Indian souvenirs in Armenia that we war getting from India was only a payback from Indian government - for the money left by Armenians.

[Arpa]

I don't know about that aspect but I find it fascinating. I hope someone can expand on the subject. In the meantime see about Hovsep Emin in the Famous Armenians section.

[Arpa]

A clarifcation.

In one of my posts about the history of Hamshen I was at a loss as to how one would have a name like Hamam. I should have known better. Beside the more popular Persian meaning of the word as bath, "hamam" and sometimes "hamameh" means dove/pidgeon in Arabic