Religion as a political tool

[nairakev]

I don't see any danger if Armenian state was moslim. I don't think if armenians didn't have become the first christian state in 301, that we wouldn't have been turned into judaism, budhism or islam.

Some of you forget what a tough resistance christianism did meet while restoring in ancient Armenia. Christianism was instored by fire and sword. Do not think that we became so easily christians and we will stay always truthful to this religion. Human society evaluates and religious movements mutate as well. Besides, MJ, can tell you more about the armenian influence in European protestantism. This influence returns back as soon as Armenians never have been known as fanatics and they are always following the tendency to seek new faith and spiritual inspiration.
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Someone was talking about Belgian authorities having imprisoned a Jehova Witness for refusing to serve in the federal army. The problem is that Belgium, unlike other EU member states, doesn't have alternative military services for pacifists or those who refuse to touch weapons.
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I agree completely with MJ, those who do not want to serve in the army because of their religious convictions, should be offered alternative services. France offers its military recrutes to fulfil a civil work instead of army service. For example, in municipality hospitals or social institutions.
There is always an option for those who cannot or do not want to serve in the army.
It depends on the cultural traditions of each society. Armenian society never got close to the western societies. It has mutated from an ex-Soviet republic into a young unexperienced caucasian democracy surrounded by totalitarist or semi-democratic states with deep economic and social problems.

I don't suggest to copycat the western model, but at least, to study their experiences and take the best out of it.

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I think the biggest error of the Armenian government that it continues (while being a secular government) to privilege the Armenian Apostolic Church.
The Armenian Church till now did not bring any significant input in the Armenian society, beside creating civil unrest (the scandal around the sects is a proof) and it continues to collect money for establishing the new churches and religious seminaries.
There is absoluetly no use of this church. No use.
Protestant churches and many catholic churches participate more actively in social life of the surrounding society than any orthodox church. In Paris the Armenian Catholic church opens its doors to all poor and trumps for free food and clothes (you don't have to be armenian to get that aid).

Armenian Apostolic Church collects money during funerals, marriages nad bathems.

Do you have any positive example where the Armenian Apostolic Church participates in our societies social life?
Please, bring them. Because I'd love to talk about that.

[ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[Guest]

dignified sects?

Armenian church is first a national institution. It's tne armenian church which made possible the flourishing of the armenian literature in the middle ages. Its contribution to our national heritage is invaluable and what these dignified sects have done for us other than destroying the unity of the nation and making it more vulnerable? It's true that they are serving their christ better than any other traditional church but their Christ is not the one you think it's Uncle Sam.

 

Don't you think Yehovah withnesses offer youngsters who want to avoid army a good opportunity?

 

And as Russia did(tell me if my memory is not good) the solution is simply to ban them as Armenia still lacks the power of money these sects have to struggle with them.

 

The catholic church like protestants used to attract poor people in Anatolia to their church using the same methods as sects nowadays.

 

They cannot any more because people are not starving any more in Istanbul. It'll be the same in Armenia believe me.

[MJ]

Hovik,

 

I have to run now. Will reply, hopefully, later tonight. Or maybe, by that time, there would be no need in my reply.

[nairakev]

So...? What we'll do? Should we allow the government persecute them, imprison them or execute them?
There many problems in each society. First of all, there is a difference between sects and religious movements.
In many European countries (such as France, for instance) the sects are forbidden.
But again they have a precise definition of what should be considered as a sect.
Jehova's Wintnesses are not considered as a sect...It's a religious movement...But followers of Rael are called sectants. So raeliens is a sect and forbidden in France.
See the difference in ?
The same may be should be discussed in Armenian Government, if there is a danger of sectantism in the society. But again, this is a very delicate question which cannot be turned into a new "hunt" for witches...!

[ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[MJ]

Hovik,

 

To save time, I'll reply in a Q&A format. Hope it is OK.

 

Armenian church is first a national institution;

 

Too bad. It shouldn't be, furthermore, it should’ve not been. Such capacity is in sharp contrast with the commandments of Jesus Christ. I am sure that exactly that capacity makes it to cease to be a spiritual institution, and it degrades the very essence of national institutions. Additionally, that capacity of the Church has been nothing but trouble for our nation. We have had national institutions before the establishment of the Armenian Church. The first Armenian national institution was the family of Patriarch Haik. We have had national Kingdoms before the Christianity, and have had variety of other national institutions, which have subsequently been killed as a result of the possessive policies of the Armenian Church.

 

It's tne armenian church which made possible the flourishing of the armenian literature in the middle ages.

 

Only partially. The literary and scientific heritage of the Mkhitarian Congregation, for example, is equally (if not more) impressive. Additionally, the Armenian Chuch has destroyed all the other literary, scientific, architectural, etc, national heritage. On such capacity, our Church has not been any better than the Ottomans or Mongols.

 

Its contribution to our national heritage is invaluable and what these dignified sects have done for us other than destroying the unity of the nation and making it more vulnerable?

 

The primary destroyer of Armenian Unity has been the Armenian Church. The nation was most united before the establishment of the Armenian Church. Its establishment has lead to the first significant division of the nation along the religious and other lines. The result has been the destruction of Armenian Kingdom. It has continued the policy of division of the nation on and off – all the way up to our modern days.

 

It's true that they are serving their Christ better than any other traditional church but their Christ is not the one you think it's Uncle Sam.

 

Typical Middle Eastern thesis, I should say. I don’t want to concentrate on Jehovah’s Witnesses. But I am well aware of some sects in the US, compared to whom the Armenian Church is a pagan Cult.

 

And as Russia did(tell me if my memory is not good) the solution is simply to ban them as Armenia still lacks the power of money these sects have to struggle with them.

 

Don’t know what Russians have done lately. But I can give you a Russian evidence from the 13th Century. In that era, Russians have faced a version of “Armenian Heresy” – read the echo of the Paulician movement. They have concluded that since the Armenian Church has been successful fighting the Paulicians out, the remedy was to introduce Cult of Grigor the Illuminator in Russia. (That’s how several Armenian facilities have appeared inside the Russian Church in the older buildings of the Russian Church in Novgorod, for example). Therefore, if any example of inquisition, the Armenian Church needs no outside examples. It has been the first one to give birth to such phenomenon. Surprise-surprise! In my view, the Armenian Church doesn’t have to fight with any sects, unless it wants to resort to its old inquisitional tactics. It has do deliver its own message, if it happens to have one. If it doesn’t have a message, its existence is not justified.

The catholic church like protestants used to attract poor people in Anatolia to their church using the same methods as sects nowadays.

 

It is not my place to rise in defense of the Catholic or Protestant Churches.

[Guest]

I only know that Mekhitarist Congreation only continued on the road opened by the armenian church however I don't neglect their contribution. But the importance of their work can it be compared to what was produced during the golden ages of the armenian literature?

 

My analysis is not middle eastern : having spent ten years in Europe that is outside USA I can have a more objective view of the subject. On the other hand even if it was middle eastern why should it be wrong? Living in a country which is so close to USA by its alliance I know better than you how they are manipulating religion to stir up the society of a given country to later use it to their advantage as a blackmail.

 

I don't know about these sects in USA but what was told about the sects in Europe and about the way they are indoctrinating and brainwashing people is not a pleasent thing to hear and this treatment seem as an insult to the human being at the dawn of the 21st century.

 

Thank you for the historical details. But you should also know that without the armenian church and later the two others if you want, we in Turkey would have been like any of these assimilated minorities like the Laz for example.

 

Finally who says religious division says weaker nation. Whatever the divisions caused so far, I believe there is no need to divide further by introducing these foreign elements. To understand that one doesn't need a degree in history or philosophy or whatever just common sense and looking at what is happening in the world is enough if the person is willing to see naturally.

[MJ]

I only know that Mekhitarist Congreation only continued on the road opened by the armenian church however I don't neglect their contribution. But the importance of their work can it be compared to what was produced during the golden ages of the armenian literature?

 

Let’s assume so. How about the non-Orthodox Armenians’ contributions into the Armenian culture in the Golden Age, that the Armenian Church has destroyed?

 

My analysis is not middle eastern : having spent ten years in Europe that is outside USA I can have a more objective view of the subject. On the other hand even if it was middle eastern why should it be wrong?

 

I didn’t imply that if something is Middle Eastern, it should be wrong. I just thing that there is certain anti-American paranoia in the Middle Eastern Armenian community.

 

Please tell us some details about the US blackmail in Europe through religious organizations.

 

Please, also tell us why on the Earth or Heaven, the US has to be so stupid that to try to get implemented in Armenia through religious (non-Armenian) sects, if the history of Armenian Church demonstrates its wide openness of serving every whitch foreign intelligence agency. Why would Americans be so stupid, that to choose the questionable path of foreign sects, if there is a shorter and much assured path through the structures of the Armenian Church ( unless it is for diversion purposes, for example)?

 

Thank you for the historical details. But you should also know that without the armenian church and later the two others if you want, we in Turkey would have been like any of these assimilated minorities like the Laz for example.

 

How about trying to understand how the policies of the Armenian Church have made easier the Turkish invasion of the region? How about the fact that the first organization/entity changing irreversibly the Armenian demography on the (Western) Armenian soil against Armenians, effective the 10th Century has been the Armenian Church? How about it creating the current Armenian-Azerbaijani problem starting from the Damnation of the Aluanian Catholicosate? Additionally, what percentage of (Western) Armenians do you think has been prevented from the assimilation into Turkish identity?

 

Finally who says religious division says weaker nation.

 

I would say who says religious unity says backward totalitarian regime doomed to self-distraction - look at our own history.

 

I am not for artificial divisions or artificial introductions of foreign elements. But the fact is that the association of Armenian identity with the Armenian Church is one of the greatest divisions of our nation in our days (and has always been throughout the history).

 

For me there is no difference between Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Pagan, Gnostic, Atheist, Communist, Western, Eastern, gay, lesbian, etc, Armenians, as far as their national identity is concerned.

 

There is one unifying concept in my view – that is our country – not the imaginary one, not the historic one, and not the one in our dreams. A real, pragmatic, material and tangible one.

 

If this concept/reality cannot unify us, then there is no need to speak even about unity, and there is no reality for any large-scale unity.

 

There is no need to expire in agony. We can choose a much less painful death.

[Guest]

Can you explain me why the german government has imposed restrictions on the scientology sect? Do you think it's by religious fanatism?

 

I am not asserting that being armenian should be assimilated to belonging to the armenian church as you can read my initial posting my discussion is about the newly introduced sects in Armenia and discussing their harmful effects to the state and those who are using these sects. So when I present an argument against a sect let's not deviate from the discussion let's talk about the sects

 

You are right when you say the land should be the unifying factor but what if these groups directed from abroad decide one day that it's not in their interest to have a country named Armenia in that region of the world?.

 

 

I did not mean US blackmail in Europe I meant in Turkey. I will give you a well known example here in Turkey by the public opinion, of a religious sect leader. His name is Fethullah Gulen. He is currently in USA and although Turkey has asked for his return, USA refuses to send him back while they sent back other wanted people to Turkey. This person who is the leader of a muslim sect, is accused of infiltrating the state, the army by introducing his disciples in them. His video cassettes where he was preaching his disciples to infiltrate the state slowly and to create at the end an islamic state including also central Asia(military elements are already in action to create such a state in Central Asia) have been shown on TV. The policy of green belt is familiar to everybody(another proof of the use of the religion by USA against foreign countries) well this seems to be another green belt to be built inside CIS itself.

 

This Fethullah Gulen case, whose disciples are year after year excluded from the secular turkish army for religious fundamentalism as they might later be from the administration, is the best documented and proven example I can present about the way US are taking advantage of sects in a country. Those who strangely start talking about 'conspiracy theories' each time there is question of a secret US activity were not able to do so in this particular case as there was material proof that he was trying to infiltrate the state in order to destroy it as a secular republic. So if you still have doubts that sects don't represent any danger to a State your opinion is not shared by courts in here who want to dismantle the organization of this gentleman at any price and who want him back but he is residing in USA isn't he?

[nairakev]

If I'm not mistaking but Mekhitarist Congregation in Venice (Italy) and in Viena (Austria) are catholic congregations but not armenian orthodox. I remember to have read about that somewhere. But I'm not 100% sure to affirm. I'll try to look for more info on the web. As soon as I find any confirmation or objection, I'll let you know.

[MJ]

Can you explain me why the german government has imposed restrictions on the scientology sect? Do you think it's by religious fanatism?

 

Cannot read German Governement’s mind. But the Scientology is not a religion or sect. It is rather a philosophical movement.

I am not asserting that being armenian should be assimilated to belonging to the armenian church as you can read my initial posting my discussion is about the newly introduced sects in Armenia and discussing their harmful effects to the state and those who are using these sects.

As I said, in the eyes of many (and I somewhat may agree with it), the Armenian Church has been a sect throughout most of its history. It is just now trying to clean up its theological foundations. Let’s see where does it wind up. I don’t see any serious harm from any currently functioning sects in Armenia. I also recall the existence of a Baptist Church in Armenia for decades (on Nar-Dos street). It was branded as a “sect” in my time, but I realized later (after studying theology a little bit) that it was a very mainstream denomination.

So when I present an argument against a sect let's not deviate from the discussion let's talk about the sects.

Define “sects” for me, and tell me please why are they so harmful?

You are right when you say the land should be the unifying factor but what if these groups directed from abroad decide one day that it's not in their interest to have a country named Armenia in that region of the world?

Has it ever occurred to you that it has not been in the interests of the Armenian Church throughout most of its history, to have such a state as Armenia, but it was just in their interest to have an Armenian religious community, and so that to have total power over it, while serving faithfully every single enemy of Armenia? How about that?

 

I did not mean US blackmail in Europe I meant in Turkey. I will give you a well known example here in Turkey by the public opinion, of a religious sect leader. His name is Fethullah Gulen. He is currently in USA and although Turkey has asked for his return, USA refuses to send him back while they sent back other wanted people to Turkey. This person who is the leader of a muslim sect, is accused of infiltrating the state, the army by introducing his disciples in them. His video cassettes where he was preaching his disciples to infiltrate the state slowly and to create at the end an islamic state including also central Asia (military elements are already in action to create such a state in Central Asia) have been shown on TV. The policy of green belt is familiar to everybody (another proof of the use of the religion by USA against foreign countries) well this seems to be another green belt to be built inside CIS itself.

You didn’t convince me. Sorry.

This Fethullah Gulen case, whose disciples are year after year excluded from the secular turkish army for religious fundamentalism as they might later be from the administration, is the best documented and proven example I can present about the way US are taking advantage of sects in a country.

Please do so.

Those who strangely start talking about 'conspiracy theories' each time there is question of a secret US activity were not able to do so in this particular case as there was material proof that he was trying to infiltrate the state in order to destroy it as a secular republic.

I know this line of thought on conspiracies. Usually it is resulted from the inability to explain things. When we cannot explain something, it is either Western Conspiracy, or American conspiracy, or Zionist conspiracy or Judeo-Masonic conspiracy. I am well aware of all this.

So if you still have doubts that sects don't represent any danger to a State your opinion is not shared by courts...

 

I had no illusions that they would share my opinions.

[Guest]

Scientology a rather philosophical movement?: a big LOL because I heard they are specialized in robbing wealthy people. They sell them an equipment which is meant to measure I don't know what and they charge them US $ 135000 when they join the 'movement'. What a philosophy! This is the philosophy of green notes isn't it?

 

MJ jan sorry but nothing seems to convince you my arguments seem to slip over you. All I can recommend is to make a search with the keyword 'Fethullah Gulen' or religious sects in Turkey you might find something...

 

Things are well explained actually, the problem is that some people turn a blind eye on the origine of the problems and try to obscure the explanation to make them unintelligible to the public.

Sometimes(in Turkey) the fear prevents them from explaining. Those who tried to explain things in the past with solid documents to support their theories(like a notorious journalist named Ugur Mumcu) ended up suddenly and tragically in graveyards hit by bullets or blown up by plastic explosives. So not so many people here can crticize openly and publicly USA on these subjects you know...

[MJ]

Yes, Hovik. Indeed you lost me.

[Harut]

i agree that religion most of the time become political tool.

sometimes it gets so much power that the religion itself becomes the politics. (holy roman empier).

 

but i'm not a master in this area, so, please don't argue with me.

[nairakev]

Hovik,

I was right about Mekhitarist congregation being of Roman-Catholic Branch. So it has nothing to do with the Armenian Apostolic Church.

Here what Britanica says on Mekhitarists:

 

Mechitarist also spelled Mekhitarist , member of Congregation of Benedictine Armenian Antonine Monks a congregation of Roman Catholic Armenian monks, widely recognized for their contribution to the renaissance of Armenian philology, literature, and culture early in the 19th century and particularly for the publication of old Armenian-Christian manuscripts.

 

The congregation, whose constitution is based on the Rule of St. Benedict, was founded in Constantinople (now Istanbul) in 1701 by the Armenian priest Mekhitar Petrosian of Sivas. Driven from Constantinople in 1703, the Mechitarists moved to Modon in Morea (1703–15) and finally settled in 1717 on the island of San Lazzaro, Venice, which was given to them by the Venetian state. This community, known as the Ordo Mechitaristarum Venetiarum, argued over a revised constitution set up by Abbot Stephen Melkonen, and in 1772 a group of dissidents left Venice for Trieste, establishing a separate branch (Ordo Mechitaristarum Vindobonensis) in Vienna (c. 1810).

 

The Armenian Academy at San Lazzaro, which was set up in Rome by the Venetian Mechitarists in the early 19th century, quickly became a centre of Armenian learning. The academy introduced the scientific and literary journal Pazmaveb in 1843, pioneered a dictionary of the Armenian language (1836), and continues to publish many classics and original works of scholarship in Armenian. The Venetian branch of the congregation maintains five religious houses, two colleges, and four schools, as well as the publishing house.

 

The Viennese Mechitarists are active missionaries. They worked among the Armenians under the Austro-Hungarian Empire and established parishes in Budapest, Cambridge (Mass.), and Los Angeles. Their motherhouse in Vienna incorporates a school, library, museum of ancient Armenian art, and a publishing house that issues Handés Amsorya (1887), a journal of Armenian philology. They also run colleges in Istanbul and Beirut.

 

the Source Britanica.com http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=52993&tocid=0

[Guest]

Yes I know I have been in their college in Istanbul

[nairakev]

Hovik!!!
Hovik!!! Are trying to have fun, man?