Shameful Silence

[sandy]

As an American of half Armenian descent I logged on to this forum expecting to see some messages of support or, at the very least, condolence regarding the massacres perpetrated against the U.S. on September 11th. However, all of you regular posters are as silent as the Turks on genocide.

[MJ]

Sandy,

 

In the best traditions of common sense, we don't express condolences to ourselves.

 

Additionally, in defining our positions on the tragedy at hands, we don't find necessary or meaningful to bring up the subject of our blood content.

 

We have had many members with variety of complexes and lack of manners, and we can handle one more, I guess.

[sandy]

What do you mean you don't express condolences to yourself? Look at the boards. Nearly every section has postings reporting transgressions of one form or another against Armenia and its people. I think the events of the past week are at least noteworthy enough to mention somewhere. And expressing some form of sympathy for the victims and their families would be acting in the finest tradition of compassion and humanity. Also, who is the "we" that doesn't find it necessary or meaningful to mention one's ethnicity? Most Americans take great pride in their ethnic background and the ethnic diversity of our country, as it is one of our greatest strengths. Lastly, a public forum's purpose is to open the lines of communication. Thus, your attempt to discredit me for speaking freely has done you far more harm than me.

[MJ]

First, if you would’ve looked carefully around, you would’ve found an entire thread devoted to the events.

 

Second, why didn’t you take the liberty and exercise your membership privilege of expressing the sympathy rather than blame the rest of the members for not doing it?

 

Third by approving your membership, this forum has already granted you access to the already open communication lines and provided you with the privilege of speaking freely.

 

Finally, nobody can discredit you, unless you do it yourself.

[sandy]

MJ,

Your thinly-veiled assaults on my character are beneath the dignity of intelligent discourse. Nevertheless, I will try to resist the temptation to trade insults. In answer to your assertions: the terrorist attack on the U.S. is the top news story around the world. How hard should I have to look to find mention of it? As for why I chose to first look rather than post, it is because I know this forum has an international following and I was curious to see how people from afar, Armenians in particular, view what has happened. I had planned to add my sentiments to those listed but, surprisingly, I found none. The bigger question now is why have you, acting as moderator, taken such a defensive stance?

[MJ]

It is unfortunate that you have qualified my resentment to your way of entry as assault. As much as I could see, you where the person assaulting this forum, and rather than doing something positive, you are the person who has built his/her premise on a negative – a violation of a fundamental American rule, which is “be positive.”

 

I don’t think it was hard to identify the thread at /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...ic&f=9&t=000728 , which has been created immediately after the terrorist actions have become public. Additionally, there were other real time discussions taking place in other threads of the forum. For the future, I would advise you to check the “Today's Active Topics” hyperlink of the forum, as well as to use its search engine if you would like to find something relatively easily.

 

As it pertains to my “defensiveness as a moderator,” I find it worthy to mention that first, it would be hard for you to push me into a defensive stance (only a while ago you qualified my stance as “thinly-veiled assaults,” and second, as much as it may be of interest to you, I have denounced my moderatorship a while ago.

 

I think I would stop here.

[sandy]

Unfortunately, it appears you have left the arena of rational debate. Since I don’t plan on following your lead, our discussion apparently has come to an end. Finally ... something we agree on! Thanks for the back&forth. Aloha.

[edward demian]

We are all in shock Sandy. I think that you have a good point. We are so engrossed in our loss that this may seem more like confirmation of what we have been saying about Muslim attrocities for all these years to no avail.

I can assure you that we all feel terrible about it. I may have lost two relatives in the towers. Idon't yet know. Still I didn't express condoliances to anyone, but jumped into a banter, and diatribe with the Muslim participants on this forum.

I suppose that in the back of my mind I felt like this is a family wake. As an American, Veteran and Patriot I was looking in from the inside; Not as a sympathetic neighbor.

I am not sure what the proper social courtecy is on this matter. I suppose that I can still learn. Help us out. (I am not fascecious about this)how do we proceed. I think that we need to do something dramatic.

But then, won't people say that we are using this horrible tragedy to further our own agenda? As a part Armenian like you, I think that I understand why you have to qualify your ethnicity. I do it too even when it's not neccessary. I have heard another member say that I'm compensating for my less than 100% Armenian genes. I really don't know! So from most of us, we welcome your opinions.

[wh00t]

MJ, would you consider me one of those members? Just curious.

[khodja]

Sandy,

 

I think that you are missing something very critical to your argument. Most Armenians are already inoculated by the terror their families have experienced. I was born and raised in the U.S., but carry the residue of what my parents experienced in Ottoman Turkey. A terrorized people react to terror differently than others. However, as has been stated here, the NY incidents have been discussed here at length. As for MJ he has insulted me many times, even referring to me as "Mustafa," for my view that we must understand why common Turks can not totally understand what transpired in 1915.

 

aloha

[MosJan]

wh00t Jan /

Many Americans are crying for 1,500,000 Armenians

 

Americans have not only cried but also have helped Armenians, during the earthquake, have provident shelter to many of us, American Armenians, , Americans have there own country and now have there own problems and sorrow, I do not expect every Armenian to cry there eyes out, but my friends and business partners who know Armenians and who are aware of our issues, do anted My Armenian church wit me on April 24 every year.

it was my American friend who has join me and the others and provident his own $$$$$ to help my Armenian from Artsax to get cured in a American Hospital, in Glendale.

 

US government is not in favor of Armenia most of the time, I know, Americans have the own business and there own problems to worry about. and lets not forget USA is still one of the only countries that Helps Armenia, and if I`m not wrong USA is the largest contributor to Armenia.

wh00tjan you need to get to know Americans.

 

[ September 22, 2001: Message edited by: MosJan ]

[elovna]

Ok, I think it's time that I start typing again.

I was at home in Holland when this terrible attack on the World Trade Center in New York took place. Soon after it started, the first images were shown on our national news. It was awful to see it all happening, all those people getting killed at that very moment and not being able to do anything but witness the event. I logged on to the Forum a couple of times, but I just didn't know what to say anymore. For days and nights I followed the news. My absence from the Forum or the fact that I did not express my sympathy there says nothing about my (lack of) feelings or compassion for the vicims and their families. With your comments you show us yourself and your anger that is totally out of place here. I agree with MJ, about taking something into the negative where you could have done something positive. I am sorry for that, because I think it's a shame, a missed opportunity.
Furthermore, a lot of Americans got killed, but so were a lot of other world citizens. 400 Dutch are also missing. Our country is also mourning. This attack was not only aimed at the USA.
We are all habitants of this earth. As humans we should be able to feel as one big family. But as long as we don't respect each other regardless of our differences in color, language, religion and costums and as long as we don't teach our children to respect, I'm afraid the human race will keep on torturing itself.
It is a dream... "Peace on Earth"... maybe an impossible goal to accomplish. Nevertheless I think we should keep on trying by trying to respect and to love, to hope and to forgive. There is a lot to learn, a lot of work to do. It is a shame to waste precious time and energy fighting each other.

[ September 22, 2001: Message edited by: Aghtchik ]

[sandy]

Edward,

Please allow me to start by saying my prayers are with you and others who may have lost loved ones in the attacks. I too am at a loss for answers. It seems the freedoms we so fiercely defend as Americans are what make our society both strong and vulnerable simultaneously. In light of what has happened, and to ensure our safety, we will probably have to relinquish or re-define some of those freedoms. A sad reality to be sure. I agree dramatic action must be taken, and no doubt there will be some operatives using this opportunity to further other, unsavery agendas. But what other choice do we have? The only language these fanatics speak is one of violence, so we and the rest of the free world will send them messages that will require no translation. Some say forgive, but I believe forgiveness is something you do to cleanse your own heart of hatred AFTER some measure of justice and/or atonement has been done. As for stating my ethnic background, I did it to add context to my words, and because I am proud to be part Armenian. I think the experiences of our ancestors filter through in shaping who we are, and I know I am a stronger person for having family who escaped the atrocities of 1915 and for having family who did not. (I don’t know much more of my relatives’ personal history than that because no one wanted to discuss it. I think that’s a shame too, because teaching your descendents the lessons of your life, no matter how painful, is a priceless gift.)

The potential outcomes of this “new kind of war” are alarming. It is conceivable, as some have warned, that events are about to take place that will change the world order. We’ve seen examples of civilizations rising and falling throughout history. Are we biting off more than we can chew? Will the other leaders of the world genuinely rally along side of us or stand idly by waiting to capitalize on whatever opportunity presents itself?

 

Khodja, Aghmug & Gamavor,

Thank you for your replies. Your points are well-taken.

 

wh00t,

Cry for whomever you choose, that’s your business. I would be interested, however, in hearing your views on why you think this happened and what should be done about it.

 

Aghtchik,

Once MJ started posting I found myself deflecting a litany of insults, some direct and some back-handed. I didn’t expect him to agree with me, but I wasn’t about to let his dismissive, condescension go unanswered. In my view it was MJ who behaved in an angry and negative-minded fashion. I simply stated my dismay at finding little in the way of any kind of conversation on the subject of the Sept. 11th attacks. I found no talk of sadness or fear, no talk of worldwide implications for the future, no talk of right or wrong, nothing. I thought there would be discussion on numerous boards with some postings in the wrong subject areas, prompting an immediate “scolding post” by a moderator. And I stand by my observations. Granted my original posting with its reference to the Turks was harsh, but I intended to stir up lively debate and that’s exactly what ensued. Nothing wrong or disrespectful about it.

[ThornyRose]

Ho ho ho! Twoot cries only if he gets something in return! You sound like the "crying women" they would hire on funerals in pre-Islamic Arabia...

Sandy, I think you should have thought twice before jumping in like that. It's been over a week and a half since the incident, and, naturally, most such threads are buried. You will find everything from people telling others they might have friends or family in there to guesses as to who did it and advice from Ali on how to survive (lol)...
Although I can infer your intentions weren't such, I think it was unfair of you to go off like that about the forum members (see, you were wrong about us - now how to do away with that?), and it is my turn to be cynical. You want to stir some sort of discussion or debate? You could have resorted to other ways...

[khodja]

Aghmug,

 

I would appreciate an e-mail address for you.

[sandy]

Thorny Rose said, "It's been over a week and a half since the incident, and, naturally, most such threads are buried."

 

 

Thorny Rose,

My temptation is to respond to you with sarcasm, but I will instead let the deeper meaning of your words percolate as others read them and make their own interpretations. As for my methods for stirring debate, you’re right, I could’ve chosen another way. Seeing few postings in the likely forums I spoke out in a way that would elicit impassioned replies. My words were direct, sincere and clearly effective and I offer no apologies. Continue to malign my actions if you must, or better yet, contribute something to the discussion. Do you think Bin Laden should die? Do you think westerners are “infidels” that must be destroyed as the extremists claim? What say you?

[Pilafhead]

Sandy,

 

You may also have not considered the fact that many of the moderators and members are so damn depressed, scared and stressed about the whole thing that we're dealing with it with our family and friends in real-life and not on-line.

 

My family are shocked and horrified by this. I'm a fourth generation Armenian-American and neither I nor my parents have ever seen anything like this. I'm at a loss for words. About the only thing I could do was place an incredibly large flag on our house. It symbolizes my sadness as an American and a human.

 

Mike

(one of the moderators here)

 

 

P.S. Is the Armenian community in Hawaii close-knit? I have a cousin there that I'd love to get back in touch with.

 

[ September 22, 2001: Message edited by: Aghmug ]

[gamavor]

Most Armenians are horrified and outraged to the extend that there is nothing to say except to comment on some current mass-media information. A very close next of kin barely survived.

What I hope for is that this tragedy finally might initiate some "thinking process" in the minds of the policy makers in USA.

[wh00t]

Why am I supposed to cry for 5,000 dead Americans? How many Americans are crying for 1,500,000 dead Armenians?

 

[ September 22, 2001: Message edited by: wh00t ]

[ThornyRose]

Ugh! Deeply wounded. But I'll live...
Read this thread for what I think about Islam:
/cgi-bin/forum/ultim...c&f=11&t=000039

Read this thread to know more about myself:
/cgi-bin/forum/ultim...ic&f=1&t=000319

And read about my trip to Kayseri (scroll down some):
http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/126178

As for bin Laden... He can eat shit and die... (Though nobody has convinced me that it was that dweeb who "did" WTC.)

[elovna]

I don't think it was needed to bring in the Turks the way you did to make your point and to 'stir up lively debate' that way. I didn't say it was disrespectful to do so by the way...
I was talking about your assumption that people don't care, just because you don't see their condoleances on this Forum. Maybe they had other things to do at the time, did that occur to you? Maybe people were showing their sadness somewhere else. And if you were wondering about it, you could have just asked. You were talking of politeness or rather the lack of it on this Forum. This is something I also noticed, however it isn't the absence of condoleances that makes me realize that. To start a topic about this in an at least somewhat impolite manner is at least a little ironical in my opinion. I am not going to comment on who started. I think we probably have a different views on what are to be considered 'lively' debates. Lively debates should be something positive, not to destroy but to construct. To talk and discuss should be done to learn and to clear up things, to find solutions for the problems in this world, to hear other opinions, other ways, but without anger and with respect for one another, to make things better, not worse.

The worlds response to what happened on September 11th should not be one of revenge. Revenge is for savages, it will kill us all in the end. The ones who planned this terrible thing of course should be de-activated somehow, but they have many followers and potential followers. To make them marterers wouldn't be a smart thing to do. The world is at a turning point. I feel that a third world war is about to begin and it can very well escalate into what will be the beginning of a long lasting very dark age.

The Bin Ladens of this world are the new Hitlers, but also the savages of our times, very smartly abusing the misery of their potential followers to build themselves a private army to fight the rest of the world, the 'free' world if you like and who knows to maybe even conquer it. To just fight back in order to punish, without paying attention to what lies behind all of that anger would show that we are not as civilized as we like to believe we are.

Justice. What is that, and eye for an eye...?

I think that our main concern should be our safety, but with 'our' I don't mean only us 'civilized' citizens of the 'free' world.

What happened on September 11th moved the whole world. For me it is a sign that maybe we CAN be one big family after all, despite of all the differences. It shows that the world can actually agree on something. Isn’t it an opportunity to change things for the better? What do we have… the bible, the koran... "you shall not kill"... isn't that something both have in common?

If something good were to come out of this in the end, at least the victims of this terrible tragedy would have died for a greater cause and their families could find comfort in knowing that their losses are the price that needed to be payed to come to a better world for our future children.

[ September 23, 2001: Message edited by: Aghtchik ]

[gamavor]

Welcome to the Forum Sandy!

 

I'm sure you will be a great asset to this Forum.

 

 

[ September 23, 2001: Message edited by: gamavor ]

[wh00t]

Ahhh, sevgili Thorny, my good friend. Nice of you to stop by and throw in your 2 cents as usual.

Tell me, if you're crying for this isolated terrorist attack on the USA, do you cry daily for the kids that die of starvation in Iraq because of US sanctions? The poor and hungry, dying in Afghanistan? Your own fellow countrymen who are dying on hunger strike protesting torture and mistreatment in Turkish prisons? The innocent civilians, including babies, dying in the Israel-Palenstinian conflict? If the answer is no, and it surely is, why?



Meh. Who cares what you think.

[ThornyRose]

My pleasure.



But, Twoot, the issue is not me - it is YOUR attitude. Why must it be a tit-for-tat for you? It's good to be born a businessman, but not like this...

For the record, I learned this morning that my great-uncle had died last night in Adana, and I did not cry... Neither did I cry when my grandfather died. In fact, I went to a concert tonight. I usually cry over different things. That's why.

Oh, and one more thing - the hunger-strikers started their "cause" when they were told they would be moved from bunkers to cells...

[wh00t]

If you do not even care when your relatives die, why take cheap shots at me when I do not express remorse over the deaths of people I don't even know?