Eternity is here †

Rubo · December 21, 2002

In basic logic there is the promise and the conclusion. My promise was:

“Descartes, Tolstoy, Gurdjieff, Gandhi, Mother Theresa, St. Augustine, Plato, Krishnamurti, Dalai Lama, etc. all believed the existence of God.”

My conclusion is:

“Could all these people and millions others be stupid in believing in God and some of our forum members be super geniuses and that they’re reasoning stands on much superior grounds? Being cynical is easier since it requires minimal mental activity.”

Now since I am a kind generous loving husband (according to my wife ) then I will say that you are correct that men have not treated women equally through centuries in most cultures but that in itselve has no relationship to this thread or my argument.

Sip · December 21, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by Rubo:

Descartes, Tolstoy, Gurdjieff, Gandhi, Mother Theresa, St. Augustine, Plato, Krishnamurti, Dalai Lama, etc. all believed the existence of God. Could all these people and millions others be stupid in believing in God and some of our forum members be super geniuses and that they’re reasoning stands on much superior grounds? Being cynical is easier since it requires minimal mental activity.

Yes dear Ruben, it is ENTIRELY possible

Since there is no test which will confirm or deny that basic premise of God, since that model seems so perfect in explaning everything, and since that model tends to explain things AFTER things have occured (i.e. there doesn't seem to be any prediction capabilities in that system), me and my simple mind have no choice but to not put too much weight in that model.

I only trust "models" that I can personally test and verify. The "God" model of explaining things is just too simplistic and too easy ... plus it is NOT testable. Therefore, it's useless as far as I am concerned. However, for some, it seems to provide the answers they seek in life which I guess in some sense is good.

Rubo · December 21, 2002

Dear Sip,

You are right God cannot be proven in basic scientific way but I will try my way.

First, my idea of God is not an old man with a white beard in the sky as in Sistine chapel by Michelangelo. It is for me more of a force, call it anything you want, it does not matter but the heart of the matter which concurs with Descartes also is the very notion of searching for “higher meaning” “spirituality” “God” are the result of a need. If we did not posses the spark or the idea of God within us then that should not have even been discussed through centuries of human existence.Need is derived from a source deep within and that very subjective notion has produced multiple religions and believe systems.Its validity is not concrete but its ripple effect transforms us to much higher beings.

Some thoughts that I often pondered in the past regarding this issue. When I hear Bach I feel the God consciousness in his music. When I look at Van Gogh I feel his soul and his spirit, which transcends in the real of God consciousness. What we value in our lives, love, giving, music, arts are all in the real of abstract that is we know its inherent importance but they are nevertheless abstract to prove concretely. I am a spirit or what drives my engine is God and everything else will decompose to dust in due time.

THOTH · December 21, 2002

Well Rubo - at best you have "proven" the Dao. So you feel God consciousness (interesting aside - how much can an ant understand/appreciate your conciousness? How can their be congruence in your moral codes etc...)...well what can I say - I don't (see the concious element per se - and certainly not any moral leanings [correesponding to our own...and thats something because you think our own construct...well others see it I guess...). So who is right? (I will take the odds that we both/all are wrong - about pretty much everything....)

You make an argument that anything that can be thought of by man must be true. What can one say to this? Can it be so? Must it be? There is no such thing as imagination? Are all superstitions that man (in his primitive [non] understanding) have suposed are true in fact all true?

So God is some force that you have imagined (are you familiar with the concept of the Dao BTW) - well OK - still we assume much...but let us agree that maybe some form of this is true and that all these dignitaries through the ages somehow believed in this (in fact I can't imagine where these folks would come to any agreement about theior notions of reality/the universe and divinity...but no matter...) - how is it that we get to heaven, hell, angels, demons, chosen people, morals, smiting heathens, church heirarchy etc etc etc and all the constructs that "believers" of one faith or another would have us strictly adhere to otherrwise wwe be heretical etc. My and we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of what the Mohammedans believe...quite frightening IMO...Chistianity is quite bad/convoluted enough.

Oh yeah - but OK - lets say I believe in this force of yours...well I find the Christian God to be counter to it - thus in effect this is the incarnation of the devil - and we must oppose him....(and I would be quite serious if in fact I beleived in this fictional entity...)

[ December 21, 2002, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

THOTH · December 21, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by Rubo:

Descartes, Tolstoy, Gurdjieff, Gandhi, Mother Theresa, St. Augustine, Plato, Krishnamurti, Dalai Lama, etc. all believed the existence of God.

Could all these people and millions others be stupid in believing in God and some of our forum members be super geniuses and that they’re reasoning stands on much superior grounds? Being cynical is easier since it requires minimal mental activity.

yes we could have great fun listing all the other absurd things these folks believed in....do you really want to go their? I mean each can offer their own bits of wisdom - but I would hope to never have to call from this list if my car breaks down by the side of the road...

THOTH · December 22, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by HOVSEP KASHISHIAN:

THOTH ... ' heabin ' where is that at ???? <img border="0" alt="[confused]" title="" src="smilies/confused.gif" />

I could not fined the place in my ' world atlas '

You are entirely correct - (IMO) it is a mythical place - only a figment of our imagination. Though I am looking foreword to (someone providing)a (credible) detailed landscape/description of the place BTW.

Rubo · December 22, 2002

Dear Thoth

Arguments pro or against any faith is equally valid I agree with you and I am well familiar with Buddhism specially Zen tradition and consequently also familiar with Daoism. I have meditated and practiced Zen Buddhism .You are correct that we can imagine anything including god but that was not what I was talking about. Enlightenment in Zen tradition is a result of intense mediation to quiet the mind and get rid of fables, heavens, devils, and angels and to reach a subjective state of mind, which can only be experienced to know its validity.

Christianity and Islam do also have similar traditions where the goal is to experience the God spirit instead of repeating fables.

Rembrandt was asked why everything he drew seemed alive-his answer” everything is spirit”.

I rather not dwell here deeply since the very subjective nature of this discussion will bare no fruit unless you will be happier simply consuming and enjoying the material world but that we all now is not sufficient which brings back to Christ “ thy shall not live bread alone”

I also firmly believe that it is foolish to take pride in one’s intelligence, talents and so on since the ego is the very root of the problem of experiencing God. One must be willing to surrender…

THOTH · December 22, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by Rubo:

One must be willing to surrender

This is the first that you mention Islam...LOL

OK - I understand your points - however you are assuming that in fact that with certain methods (meditation etc) the "God" is rerachable/understandable or whatever - I contand that even this may be complete fallacy. No one can prove/convince/whatever that in fact what is percieved is anything more then a personal interpretation (perhaps less colored by the world...less but not "un") - entirely limited by our inadequacy of perception and cognition, having little to do with any true revelation. But I could be wrong.

It should be noted that there are severe differences between East and West (religious traditions) concerning paths to enlightenment - and only rarely do Western sects/offshoots exist that accept some aspects of the Eastern way of personal mystiscism that you espouse. And in fact, for the most partt, i would argue that the approach is highly antithetical to Christianity (as proscribed by Paul and since...)

All od that being said - I understand and applaud your approach. You could be doing worse.

Arshak · January 2, 2003

I wasn't expecting you to reply. This was interesting actually. I just want to say to that one guy that the lady with the long blond hair is a good person. Don't say those kind of things about her, because she is trying to help people that lack spiritual amnity. Come on... she is trying to help and shouldn't we be thankful for a person like that? Plus they don't waste the money on none-sense things. They have to rent the auditorium and pay the staff that have to set-up the microphone and speakers, and I don't mention the television costs that apply on top of all that. And cosider the fact that they have to travel from city to city, from country to country to spread the word of God.

I don't understand this. And as a matter of a fact people can heal by their energy. If you think that those people are just falling on stage and faking, think again. All the pastors have great amount of energy in them, and all can utilize it to heal one another. But, I have noticed that Benny Hinn does it better than the other ones. He has a special way of doing it since he comes from an Indian background. It's kind of like one of those special kind of people that can do this.

†

[ January 01, 2003, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: Arshak ]

Sip · January 2, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Arshak:

I wasn't expecting you to reply. This was interesting actually. I just want to say to that one guy that the lady with the long blond hair is a good person. Don't say those kind of things about her, because she is trying to help people that lack spiritual amnity. Come on... she is trying to help and shouldn't we be thankful for a person like that? Plus they don't waste the money on none-sense things.

Well, she certainly seems to be wasting a LOT of the money on the makeup. I think her makeup budget alone could probably feed an entire village in Affrica.

Sorry I don't mean to sound like a prick but I think those TV evangelists or whatever the heck they are, are the LOWEST life forms in the Universe. They sell something which isn't theirs to sell. I have tremendous amount of respect for real social workers and those who go around helping people in need. I have absolutely NO respect for those who profit and build fortunes using GOD as their "message".

It just saddens me to see there are sooo many people in the world with such empty lives that they would turn to such empty sweet-talking ***os to find meaning in their lives ... just sad ... very sad

Sip · January 2, 2003

ahahahahahaha ... just realized "B O Z" is another bad word!!! Good, my sadness is gone ... can't say B0Z0

joseph · January 2, 2003

Arshak jan you did not answer my question , why not go to hospitals where the real sick people are and heal them , and i mentioned one in particular , Saint Judes hospital for little kids with cancer , i am sure if they do heal those kids , most of us might change our mindes specialy Sip

THOTH · January 2, 2003

Arshak - wake up!

First of all - a great many of these "healings" are completley fake. In fact I have a good friend who used to believe as you. She actually went on one of these TV shows and was healed! Of what I don't rememnber - and neither does she - she just was getting into the exitement of it all (and has admited that she totally faked the whole thing). So I say they should take the Hovsep challenge!

All that being said I do think that one's mind can heal one's body in many respects/instances and certain trance/ritual and even assistance provided by others can be very helpful in channeling this energy - this is why traditional witch doctors were so effective for such a long time. (hint - it has really little or nothing to do with Christ or any particular [non-evident] divinity...)

And please don't go there about the money. These guys take in millions and millions (and do not help anyone but themselves). I have been to (Jerry Lee Lewis's couusin...forgot his name just now..you know the guy who like to play with himself with prostitutes...) complex in Louisiana and seen all the Porches and Mercedes...and my family has personally "suffered" from these guys as a significant portion of our (not-insignificant) inheritence was squandered away by my one (non-Armenian) Grandmother who sent many many thousands of dollars to Jim & Tammy Faye...and all I have to show for it is one Christmass card with their (grotesque) smiling faces on it....

joseph · January 2, 2003

Thoth keep that card it could endup as a collecters item and might worth somthing espcialy if tamy had all her makeup on i tryed to get all the colors that she use to have on her face

THOTH · January 2, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by HOVSEP KASHISHIAN:

Thoth keep that card it could endup as a collecters item and might worth somthing espcialy if tamy had all her makeup on

Yeah - I've still got it (maybe I can scan it for everyone's amusement one day - don't know if may scanner will acuratly show the various shades of purple Tammy Faye uses on her face though...). Inside the card , my Grandmother even has written out the full names and birthdays of Jim, Tammy Faye and there 3 (?) kids... etc - an expensive "keepsake" this has been for me...

Stormig · January 2, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by THOTH:

quote:

Originally posted by HOVSEP KASHISHIAN:

Thoth keep that card it could endup as a collecters item and might worth somthing espcialy if tamy had all her makeup on

Yeah - I've still got it (maybe I can scan it for everyone's amusement one day - don't know if may scanner will acuratly show the various shades of purple Tammy Faye uses on her face though...). Inside the card , my Grandmother even has written out the full names and birthdays of Jim, Tammy Faye and there 3 (?) kids... etc - an expensive "keepsake" this has been for me...

Might be on high demand on e-bay someday if they keep their followers or are subject to a scandal. It's a win-win situation.

THOTH · January 2, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Stormy:

Might be on high demand on e-bay someday if they keep their followers or are subject to a scandal. It's a win-win situation.
LOL - Stormy - you obviously are not familiar with these folks - I think Jim is recently out of the federal Pen - and who knows what Tammy might be up to now...needless to say - a number of years ago they were convicted of fraud and who knows what else. They were supposdly helping the poor in Africa and building some sort of Christian Disneyland but mainly sucking up the money and living very well.

So yeah - I imagine it is a collectors item of some sort - though again - we have already paid dearly for it...

Stormig · January 3, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Azat:

http://aburriss.tripod.com/tbakker.jpg

The devoutness shines out of her eyes and the smeared curves of her lips...

Azat · January 3, 2003

how dare you knock a beautiful woman like her...

http://aburriss.tripod.com/tbakker.jpg

What part of that little dog is she touching?

joseph · January 4, 2003

And the shining gold paid by the devoted senior citisens , and dont forget the airconditioned dog house .

joseph · January 4, 2003

Azat I can see you are touched by her " saintly looks and humbelnes " .

Arshak · January 6, 2003

Hold on a minute and lets take a step back. About the healing; I have to say that it can be done and here is an example of what actually happens during the healing. Before we go any further you got to understand this principle first.

If you believe you will be healded, you will be healed.

If you don't believe that you will be healed, you will NOT be healed.

An example: A thirsty man walks in the kitchen hurringly and drinks a cup of fluid and goes back to the gym. Tammy who saw this happening thought that Harry was going to die in a moment, because she had just accidentally misplaced the cup full of poison.

When Harry returned home from the gym, he was all right.

It actually worked for me the other day when I was programing. I believed that Jesus is going to help me to program and I have to say that it did workout, which gives me the impression as if I don't direct my destny, because in the 7th deepest spirit, it is I anyway. However in shallower spiritual levels, I am thinking about Jesus. And that is why they have been saying to believe in Jesus. If you and I behave in the shallower spiritual states, your deeper spirits will easily operate. Contrary, if you and I behave on deeper levels, we will not be able to interact. This is called the meditation state. This is a very difficult state where only the few can reach to their soul's core, the same concept as the Earth's centrum. Everyone can do this and it takes lifetimes to achieve to this goal.

Now. Both of the extremes have their importance and the other can't be without the other one. If one is unbalanced, the person will deteriorate by itself. The importance of getting to deeper level is the following: discovering about yourself and what concepts arise in your mind based and upon your theories learned or experiences from life, and human relations, non-relations, books, images, no-images at all, heard offensiveness, did not heard offensiveness, the food you ate and the food you didn't ate, the words spoken out of yourself and the words not expressed (even though knowing them), and overall the knowledge accepted or learned, but not used, or used, and succeeded, or not succeeded, or acclaimed or not acclaimed by those people who tought that knowledge to you and I.

If a person grew up in a blank room, we would easily be able to identify their 7th spirit, and easily be able to see who they ARE.

But in a case like this, sometimes we need to meditate, however it would be difficult to stay at one state, since there has to be someone to teach how. Even then, they wouldn't be able to meditate forever, because just when they found someting new about their soul; they would be obligated to come back and tell it to their teacher, collegues, and family members.

Why? Because people need one another's truth. Everyone has the truth inside of them. When two individual's truths are being meet with one another through interaction or by thought, the belief inside of the two persons come into the shallower spirit of the two and come upon to reality. Importantly and in addition if one of the two had happed to be reached at a deeper spiritual level than his or her friend's, they will be more of an aid to their client (a techincal term) . And that prooves that believing in Jesus and God will heal you and I. If I believe in Jesus alone, it will not work. Both have to do it, so that our deepest spiritual gold can be interchanged. And why is it that it is recommened to have variety, balance, and moderation in our diet?

The same is with people. Which are the 12 spirits or not less or more.

And I have actually tested this on myself! Running tests on yourself is not a good idea (Don't try this at home). Next time I'll do it with my buttler. Just kidding

And this ALSO prooves that Benny Hinn can heal! And the other story that I heard on TBN was that one man who was terribly ill, which doctors had warned him about death. And an untold human who would be unaware of this fact wouldn't know how he got to live. And perhaps see it as a miracle. And why not, it could be a miracle after all since I myself do not know what people are thinking in their mind, AND what they are believing inside of themselves about me.

And that is how miracles, successfullness, and unsuccessullness take palce into people's lives.

Now the truth of the matter is that it doesn't matter how much people are making, but what they are thinking for someone, also known as a prayer. And Jesus being the medium to deliver another person's wishes toward the needy.

Remeber, the faster we travel through space the slower we go forward since the universe travels just at the same speed as of you and I. The only way to really go forward is how and what to think in a given time and place.

And today, if I were able to tell you all this knowledge is a result of someone strongly praying, so that I can finally tell you all about this.

And if they continue, I will continue...

A truth from me...

†

Arshak · January 6, 2003

Hold on a minute and lets take a step back. About the healing; I have to say that it can be done and here is an example of what actually happens during the healing. Before we go any further you got to understand this principle first.

If you believe you will be healded, you will be healed.

If you don't believe that you will be healed, you will NOT be healed.

An example: A thirsty man walks in the kitchen hurringly and drinks a cup of fluid and goes back to the gym. Tammy who saw this happening thought that Harry was going to die in a moment, because she had just accidentally misplaced the cup full of poison.

When Harry returned home from the gym, he was all right.

It actually worked for me the other day when I was programing. I believed that Jesus is going to help me to program and I have to say that it did workout, which gives me the impression as if I don't direct my destny, because in the 7th deepest spirit, it is I anyway. However in shallower spiritual levels, I am thinking about Jesus. And that is why they have been saying to believe in Jesus. If you and I behave in the shallower spiritual states, your deeper spirits will easily operate. Contrary, if you and I behave on deeper levels, we will not be able to interact. This is called the meditation state. This is a very difficult state where only the few can reach to their soul's core by controling themselves any time they desire, the same concept as the Earth's centrum. Everyone can do this and it takes lifetimes to achieve to this goal. However, we do get to our soul's core when we are at sleep at night and do communicate with the universe or all the space.

Now. Both of the extremes have their importance and the other can't be without the other one. If one is unbalanced, the person will deteriorate by itself. The importance of getting to deeper level is the following: discovering about yourself and what concepts arise in your mind based and upon your theories learned or experiences from life, and human relations, non-relations, books, images, no-images at all, heard offensiveness, did not heard offensiveness, the food you ate and the food you didn't ate, the words spoken out of yourself and the words not expressed (even though knowing them), and overall the knowledge accepted or learned, but not used, or used, and succeeded, or not succeeded, or acclaimed or not acclaimed by those people who tought that knowledge to you and I; and all of these could interfere with your sleep. Do you ever wonder why you can't sleep like you used to in earlier stages of your life? Dreems, I talk about that later.