Basic Islam

[dragon]

Rose jan,

The above message is from Hmayk to you. I have nothing with it. She emailed me just a couple of second before. She was a little confused, asked me to post it in behalf of her. So please take it to your consideration.

 

Hmayk is a little bit totovig, this is why she get upset when someone repeats her words

[ThornyRose]

When will you guys learn that I don't know and/or understand Armenian???

[dragon]

Senin aghzunu chok uzledim...yan gedmish sheya benzer

 

Shindi bunu eyi aghnan, oyla deyil mi hayatum, gunum, guneshim, janum...

[aurguplu]

this is in reply to steve's (and perhaps others') remarks that the taliban practice true islam:

 

at the time of the prophet muhammad (pbuh), women routinely participated in everyday life, including politics. later on, tere were some women who also participated in warfare (in addition to everthing else).

 

like every religion, islam is also susceptible to be corrupted or interpreted in fashions by demagogues/fanatics/bloodthirsty murdereres and other assorted mental cases that clot the blood of the rest of humanity, solely to suit their own needs.

 

islam did give rise to a great civilisation that was active and productive up to the sixteenth century. western civilisation owes a ton to islam, in areas as diverse as mathematics, medicine, the sciences, etc., even some religious practices (churchbells were introduced to christendom upon the inspiration of some saint (forgot his name) who was impressed with the five-times-a-day call to prayer in islamic countries while he was travelling through them.

 

if true islam had been anything like that, it would not have been able to make such contributions, because it wouldn't have much of a following in the first place. tyranny does not survive long. look at the soviet union.

 

regards,

[bellthecat]

Ali - if "true Islam" is not like that practiced in Afghanistan then how do you account for the lack of opposition to the Taliban's type of Islam from neighbouring Islamic countries, in particular that of Pakistan (whose sole reason to exist derives from its wish to be an Islamic state).

 

Church bells have nothing to do with Islamic practices - they originated in western Europe, before Islam, (possibly in Ireland, where very old examples exist) and then travelled eastward, only reaching Armenia during the 13th century.

[ThornyRose]

But they were later tucked into their homes - and? To suit you: if this original version of Islam was not preserved, then there was a deviation, hence no more original Islam. Dead. Fini.
It's not even that. Mohammad probably used women to spread his "faith" (Aisha is often mentioned in ahadeeth, even when advising women to cover not just their hair but also their necks) - make it attractive. Additionally, women were active in all spheres of life BEFORE Mohammad's time. That Mohammad limited the number of wives a man could have to four means absolutely nothing (though it is my delight to remind the public that it was Mohammad who actually encouraged mut'a [temporary marriage] and that it was he who forced Jewish and Coptic women into his list of 20+ women), because we know that women weren't wed forcefully even then. Mohammad's great-grandparents were about to divorce, and, when arguing about who was to keep the child (Mo's grandfather), the mother and the father couldn't come to an agreement, so the father had to kidnap the little boy. Mohammad, wise man, settled the issue once and for all by decreeing that the boy was to be kept by the father. It is Mohammad who has reduced women to potato sacks. It was Mohammad who made such an issue out of these potato sacks that he ordered the death of two Jewish boys for exposing the leg of one Muslim woman. (This is mentioned in Islamic propaganda books with pride and in Max Rodinson's "Mohammad" alike.) Funny, but unlike the pagan religion of the Arabs, Islam was corrupted, and suddenly the presence of women has gone down to zero. It is that peace be upon him Mohammad who prescribed coitus interruptus (the adl you will read about in books printed by Diyanet) after a battle (battle is also mentioned) - not for camels, but for the captured women (exactly what for is not mentioned!)!



Christianity has deviated from being the "Christianity of martyrs, blah blah blah" - what do I care? I care for nothing but the people, the Christians themselves. Same goes with Muslims.
And, last but not least, what do I care for a religion which is either "corrupted" into being repugnant beyond mortal belief or whose ding-dong followers can't cope with those that cherish the former version?

quote

islam did give rise to a great civilisation that was active and productive up to the sixteenth century. western civilisation owes a ton to islam, in areas as diverse as mathematics, medicine, the sciences, etc., even some religious practices (churchbells were introduced to christendom upon the inspiration of some saint (forgot his name) who was impressed with the five-times-a-day call to prayer in islamic countries while he was travelling through them.

I don't deny that there was an Islamic civilization - but how many women have contributed to it? The native peoples of Central America also had a great civilization which was wiped out by the Spaniards (hey, I hope they are not going to try to pass an Armenian Genocide resolution sometime soon, because they will give the Turkish media something to yap about and, in Taner Akçam's words, be "aimed to obscure the facts, rather than dispute a false charge"), but some did observe barbarian practices like human sacrifice. See where I am going?

quote

if true islam had been anything like that, it would not have been able to make such contributions, because it wouldn't have much of a following in the first place. tyranny does not survive long. look at the soviet union.

Of course tyranny doesn't rule long. That is not the case with Islam, though, so long as you have women themselves who will go on TV and say that the husband has the right to beat the wife.
And Steve is right about the Taliban not receiving enough opposition from within as far as their religious rules are concerned (not talking about political opposition here, which the people are too weak to give) - heck, look at those stadiums full of people cheering during public executions!

True Islam is in YOUR book - read it and read it carefully!

You must understand - the very way in which the Ottoman caliph-sultans had more than four wives is an example of the Ottomans themselves reinterpreting Islam, for the better or for the worse, depending on the case - and, of course, nobody dared question why there happened to be more than four! I had a list of Ottoman practices that went against Islamic laws - but, alas, I lost it when I lost my old hard disk.

The points I have brought about in my previous posts have gone unchallenged, of course... If you are lewd and woman, sit in your house for the rest of your life; if a man, just say you are sorry.
I don't deny that such things as "a woman is to leave her house three times in her life: when she is born, when she marries, and when she dies" and giving the tastier part of the meal to the husband may be cultural/tribal influences, but there is so much more that, I think, others should not (cannot, anyway) find excuses for...

[edward demian]

Before the fall of Communism, I had the opportunity to speak with some reacent Romanian refugees. These were young girls who were interned in Italian refugee camps.

The camps had Albanian as well as other nationalities. The girls were describing the Muslim Albanians as Beasts and animals. It was hot in those wooden shacks, and those nordic girls could not endure the stiffling heat. So they all vied for window space. The Albanian boys would grabb and drag the girls away to gang rape them. The Cristian boys tried to intervene, but were no match for the numbers and ferocity of the muslims. Eventually, the Italian police had to quell the riots by shooting a few Albanians and separating them from the rest of the other nationalities.

According to what I heard on TV during some US documentaries, Kosovo was mainly Serbian before the great war. After the Communists took over, Tito did whatever all the other Communists regimes did. he set the nationalities against each other. So in Khosovo, The Albanians dominated the communist Party. The Albanian Communists formed a kind of Criminal Political mafia and used their power to ethnic cleanse the region of Serbians. The Serbians were simply getting back. And you know, the Europeans did not care. The Americans made care to impress the Saudis. Keep that oil flowing at any price. So no sooner NATO evicted the Serbian Army, the Albanians ethnic cleansed the few remaining Serbs and are still killing. Now they are moving on Macedonia.

So spare me the sob stories about Serbian attrocities. The Muslims have much more to atone for. However, all that is changing. My American friends who were bored with the old world baggage, are noew talking "Crusades". In public they say one thing, but in private, they hate everything Muslim. "Sand Niggers" is a commen appelation. The devout Cristians even, are reconciled to the fact that we are going to have to kill and kill again. The only thing that the Muslim minority can do to pay their dues, is to do what the Japanese minority did after the war.

To the last man, they volunteered for the US Army and experienced the highest casualty rate of the war, and qualified for the most decorated units in the US Army. I don't see big crouds of Muslims gathering outside recruiting centers to join the Army and fight for the US. No blood no vindication. That is the American way. The Irish had to do the same thing during the Civil War. All irish units shed blood like no others, for the priviledge of American cityzenship.

If the immigrants of this country think that this country is here for their picking they will wake up to the fact that, this country will suck in immigrants by the millions with the allure of high wages and the cornucopia of goodies, and when you think it's over,and "you'r in like Flynn", whammo. It takes all your children and splatter them all over places like Monte Cassino, Io Jima, and Normandy. That's the price.

[bellthecat]

Documentaries made long after the event, I bet!

Europe (with the notable exception of Germany and certain Nordic countries) did care and was well aware of Kosovo's history, but was pushed into NATO's (read America's) illegal little war. And what is happening in Macedonia is again a result of American pressure. But EVERY fundamentalist Muslim regime in the world was set up or suported as a result of American activities. Bin Laden should be praising America, not trying to destroy it!

[gamavor]

[gamavor]

I don't know about Nordic countries, but Germans still have nightmares when they heard the term "Serbian partisan", reminiscent from the WWII.

[mankun]

I have much respect for Islam as I have read Qur'an over 3 times. I am able to comprehend it subjectively. There dual nature and spirit in Qur'an. Some of it is peaceful and righteous, while the other verses have fiery descriptions of war, slave taking, etc. This is dilemma for the modern Muslim clerics. Verses are open to interpretation depending on individual's state of mind. Imams and mullahs only give guidance, but the Muslim believer is free to interpret Qur'an as he reads it.

 

Why is it that even the most fanatical Muslim can visit the Vatican or Jerusalem, but a non-Muslim can never step into the city of Mecca without the loss of one's head?

[ThornyRose]

I'll take it all, and you have much graphic stuff in there, as well, do you not? Virgins with nice and gropable breasts, yay whoo!
There is much more to Islam than the Qur'an, is there not? In Christianity, you don't find the church in the Bible, do you?

I have contempt for those who claim that the Qur'an must be interpreted by the ulema and then only presented to the people - what do you expect from a set of beliefs that decrees so? The people then are in the hands of the clerics - no need to read it and think for yourself!

As for Mecca - I think Richard Burton is the only known non-Muslim (or is the truth different??) to have entered it!

[bellthecat]

Is there? I get the impression that there is not - that the fundamentalists say the Qur'an contains everything anyone could ever need. Of course there are Christian fundamentalists that say the same sort of thing about the bible, but they do not go around smashing TVs and cameras because they are not in the bible, or forcing people not to shave because shaving was not the fashion in 30AD!



But isn't that the problem - Islam is full of little freaks and madmen who think they have the unchecked authority to say what is correct Islam and what is not. At least in Christianity (real Christianity, not the wishwashy "I don't go to church but believe in god" so-called Christians or their moronic fundamentalist counterparts) there are fundamental statements that a believer must believe in. Does Islam have something like this:

"I believe in one God, Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible: And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God; begotten of the Father before all ages; Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten, not made, of One Essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made: Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from Heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became Man: And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried: And He rose on the third day according to the Scriptures: And ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father: And He is coming again with glory to judge the living and the dead; And His Kingdom will have no end: And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of the Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is equally worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets: And in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the Resurrection of the Dead; And the life of the Age to come.
Amen."

Even I am a tiny bit envious of something with this clarity and certainty!

quote

As for Mecca - I think Richard Burton is the only known non-Muslim (or is the truth different??) to have entered it!

I think he was the first to enter and leave and live to tell the tale!

[mankun]

According to what I know, he went in disguised as a Muslim believer.

[mankun]

another problem with Qur'an is that it must only be truly comprehended in its original Arabic. This leaves out the hundreds of millions of non-Arabs (most of them are illiterate too).

 

I have heard many interpretations of "jihad." Of course, you hear its sanitized version among modern educated Islamic scholars in the West.

[Artur]

I have this muslim afghani friend studying with me in England. He is a good guy, i like him. Once we were arguing about should women study or not. He was on the side of these Taliban wahhabis. Myself, i am a bit strict as well about women(sisters, daghters) wearing skirts, having relations with man before marriage etc.

 

But i was arguing with him, and said that it is too extreme, he was like: not it is not... And I asked him, if you would have a wife, and suddenly she gets sick with women's illness, Who would you liketo be her doctor, a man or a women. I meant who he'd like to check her a man or a woman. He answered: of course woman! And my rection was, then how do you expect there to be female doctors if they are not allowed to be educated. The guy was: damn man, i have never thought of that. : )) funny staff.

 

 

Artur

[ThornyRose]

Funny, indeed - but it is also terribly sad. He is one (and he is getting an education!) - there are millions like him, all because they have been given ready answers that they have been told not to question...

[ThornyRose]

That is their own mistake, for where do they think they get the stuff for the stoning to death and all? They do say that the Qur'an has it all, but, at the same time, little children are taught that the fundamentals of Islam are in the Qur'an and the ahadeeth (sayings of the prophet Mohammad).


The Five Pillars of Islam? Will they do?


It is long - and says pretty much very little, really. It is like the shahadah of Islam (only that is about three clauses or so long!)...


He has described the Kaa'ba accurately, yes? Great guy, nonetheless...

[Artur]

What do you mean? Are you married?

[ThornyRose]

That is what we ALL know. Some, however, question a few things (exactly on what basis, I don't know - just heard a few hypotheses - and one is about the probability of his having converted to Islam)...

[ThornyRose]

If it were only that! One must read the Qur'an as many times over as they can in a life-time, but only to listen to the interpretation of "authorities" - how else do you think they can sway so many people with their fatwas?

quote

I have heard many interpretations of "jihad." Of course, you hear its sanitized version among modern educated Islamic scholars in the West.

Yep, "sanitized" is right - but you get something different from what you have in the West and in a few countries like Turkey (boy, are people lulled here) when you go elsewhere in the Middle East.

[ThornyRose]

By the way!

 

 

All of those things are great! (((:

[Azat]

HAMBURG, Germany (AP) -- Some 200 worshippers listened raptly as the imam at al-Quds mosque delivered a fiery 45-minute sermon on the sins of the infidels and the arrogance of the West.

 

"God, we implore You to destroy the United States of America," shouted the imam.

 

Not a soul flinched. The congregation recited in unison, "Amen."

...

http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSAttack011003/03_h...hamburg-ap.html

 

---------------------

 

Is this Basic Islam? I do not go to church but am almost certain that other mainstream religious leaders never say these kinds of words in church.

[Artur]

Azat, don't take it as a surprise. These people are upset what the US done to them.

 

What about Turkey? When there are some buldings bombed in Turkey or politicians taken hostages or killed, armenians celbrate. The men who do it become heros, heros of armenian people. It is all because of anger towards Turkey, because they killed more than a million innocent people. Now, what the US done to Iraqi people, and to many other muslim countries breach nothing but anger. They bombed Yugoslavia, destroyed the infrastructure, supported Albanian separatists, who now atack Macedonia. And people who are upset from muslims, who lost relatives were celebrating what happened in the US on sept 11.

 

I can understand these people, but i won't support what they've done. And that is unforgivable.

 

But look at the USA... they are terrorists themself. They think they are at the top of the world, trying to intervene every problem on the earth. Punish everyone being wrong in their own eyes...

 

And there will be more terrorist acts, after afghani war (if it starts), because there will be more upset people. Even if they destroy the Taliban resime, there are kids who will never forget it. And that's the same case with Armenian Genocide. And i can understand them.

 

And it is not about religion, it is about anger, it is about mistakes the US done, and paid for it in such a terrible way.

 

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Artur ]

[edward demian]

So let get this straight.

One of the lemurs chants Jihad and all the the other lemurs follow him over the precipice.

Could you give us all that chant again.